never once begged of him to mention it to the government; so much was it a matter of right and so little a matter of favour. But he had other grounds of complaint against these commissioners; they had not stated, that this case had been referred to the solicitor of the board, and that he had made a Report decidedly in favour of the right which accrued under the warrant. It might also have been expected, that, in point of fairness, when they were about to make this Report, they would have examined Mr. Croker himself upon the subject; but not one question did they ever put to him upon the subject, though they had daily opportunities of doing it. He concluded with stating, that he trusted he had made out a clear case, and that he had done justice to Mr. Croker. With respect to the character of that gentleman, the gentleman opposite to him, had spoken of it in terms which left him nothing to wish upon the subject. If any thing more had been necessary, he believed he might safely appeal to the right hon. gent. who filled the chair. He believed Mr. Croker attracted that gentleman's notice when he was in Ireland, and he believed also, that he owed that notice to the high character which he possessed. (The Speaker assented.) Mr. Croker concluded by trusting the House would pardon him for feeling on such an occasion the desire of doing justice to the character, not only of the individual, but of the Board of Excise, and of the government. Sir J. Newport disclaimed any idea of wishing to throw blame on Mr. Croker, whom he admitted was a highly meritorious officer. Being now apprised of the circumstances just stated by the hon. gent., which were perfectly satisfactory, he should withdraw the two first Resolutions. At the same time he must still consider the board of excise as very negligent. Mr. W. Pole, referring to the report, observed that if the right hon. bart. had taken the trouble to read it, he would have found in the Appendix that Mr. Croker stated in his memorial that his claim was proper and legal, and the commissioners, in their report, bear him out, by stating that he was entitled to a moiety of the sum in question by law. Mr. M. Fitzgerald considered the giving of a moiety of the fines to the informer not as an equitable principle. He bore testimony to the merits of Mr. Croker as a public officer, who deserved every favour that government could shew him, by the length, the zeal, the talents and the integrity of his public life. The Chancellor of the Exchequer thought that Mr. Croker had great ground of complaint against the commissioners for having made so incorrect a report, which had been suffered to rankle in the public mind to the prejudice of that gentleman since February 1809. He thought the right hon. bart. before he brought the charge, would have done as well to have looked into the report, and not have taken the word of the commissioners. The two first Resolutions were then withdrawn. On the question being put on the third Resolution, Mr. W. Pole said, he trusted the House would indulge him for a few minutes while he answered the attacks which the hon. bart. had made upon the Irish government, for the transaction respecting the post office. What had passed upon the preceding resolution should be a warning to him in future to be cautious how he brought forward charges affecting persons of high character, and how he applied such epithets, without taking care to be in full possession of the facts of the case. He flattered himself that in this case he should convince the House that the hon. bart. was as completely mistaken, with respect to the facts, as he was in the last. The hon. bart. had began by stating, that when this subject was before under discussion, he (Mr. Pole) had got rid of it by the previous question, and had skulked from the fair discussion of the decision. This language of the hon. bart: would teach him in future not to show so much courtesy as he had done upon the occasion alluded to. The House would recollect, that when the hon. bart. brought forward his Resolution respecting the Irish Post Office, on a former night, he mixed it with so much fact, that he (Mr. Pole) from mere courtesy, did not think it right to propose a direct negative, but had moved the previous question. He would take care, however, how he shewed such courtesy again. He did not mean to accuse the hon. bart. of doing any thing unparliamentary, but certainly it was not usual to bring a subject a second time under discussion when it had been once decided. He had very little to state upon this subject now more than he had urged on a former occasion; but as many gentlemen who were present now had not heard his former statement, he would, with ward with a sinecure situation of 5,000l. a year, and the use of the public money, they took from him very properly the public money, but they never thought of the permission of the House, shortly repeat it. The right hon. bart. had fallen into an error respecting the case of Mr. Forward, into which he had been led by the Report; he had stated, that that gen-making him do the duties of his office: tleman had been superannuated, after only 8 years service. That was not the fact: the case was shortly this. In 1800 Mr. Forward was, by patent, appointed Treasurer of the Post Office, an office which was considered as a perfect sinecure. He remained in it never doing duty, until 1808, when the office was reformed. During a part of that period the right hon. bart. and his friends were in office, and they had never called upon Mr. Forward to do any duty, so perfectly did they consider his office as a sinecure. The Commissioners in their report, had stated, as a principle, that public officers should not be remunerated except for long services, but that gentleman had been remunerated after a service of only eight years. Now there was the more unfairness in this statement, because it was partly true and partly false. They ought to have stated, that this office of Mr. Forward's was a perfect sinecure, that upon the reform of the office he had been removed, in order that the office of Treasurer of the Post Office might be made efficient, and that they had been remunerated as was always the case when patent officers were removed. There was in this Report, as there was in the Report respecting the case of Mr. C.'s materials given in the Appendix, out of which a fair statement might be made; but the Commissioners thought proper to frame their Report in the way he had mentioned.-They had used the word superannuation, as applied to Mr. Forward, and used it most improperly. That the word was not used in the order for granting him his salary, it was "compensation," and that was the term which the Commissioners ought to have used. It was singular that the principle of not calling upon sinecure patent officers to do any duty, or in cases where a light duty was annexed to the office, to do more than they had been accustomed to do, was recognized by the hon. bart. himself, in an act which he brought in for abolishing offices that were useless, or in part useless. That was the principle upon which the Irish government acted in the case of Mr. Forward, and yet the right hon. bart. now made it a ground of accusation. When the right hon. bart. and his friends were in office, they attempted something like a reform in this office, they found Mr. For they left him in possession of it, and of the salary. The hon. bart. had talked of pretended reforms having been made in the Post Office, but if the hon. baronet had taken the trouble of reading the Appendix to the Report, he would have found that he (Mr. Pole) was justified in speaking of these reforms in the manner he had done, and that they were real and substantial reforms. (Mr. Pole then read an extract from the Report, speaking in high terms of the efficient reforms which had been effected in the Post-Office.)-Such was the opinion of the Commissioners upon the reforms effected, and yet the hon. bart. had called them pretended reforms. In the course of his speech, the hon. bart. had alluded to something which the Commissioners had brought forward in the shape of a charge. They stated, that while they were prosecuting their inquiries, they discovered something improper in the Post Office, and that an attempt had been made to conceal it from them; and the hon. bart. had mentioned the subject as if government had been apprised of the impro priety, and had connived at theconcealment. If the right hon. bart. wished to be informed of what government knew relative to this subject, he had not the slightest objection to lay all the papers concerning it before the House, for he had no wish for concealment on that or any other subject. At present, however, he would state the case from memory, as correctly as he could:-A rumour some time ago reached him that there was great malversation in the department of the clerks of the roads in Ireland, he of course endeavoured to ascertain whether that rumour was well or ill founded, and he received a statement of every thing which had been discovered respecting their misconduct. There were in Ireland four clerks of the roads, and the chief perquisites of their office arose from newspapers sent to different parts of Ireland. At the time of the Union they presented a Petition, setting forth that their emoluments had been greatly reduced, and praying for compen sation. An inquiry was made into the amount of their emoluments, and their salaries were fixed at the average of their emoluments for the three preceding years, The perquisites which they had before received were ordered to be paid into a fund, out of which their salaries were to be paid; if that fund was deficient, that deficiency was to be made up by government; if there was a surplus, it of course went to the public account. In consequence of this arrangement the clerks paid in what they called their receipts into this fund, but it appeared that there was every year a deficiency. Last summer an inquiry was made into the business, and it was found that they had been guilty of great frauds; but as they were before been considered as men of good characters, they were permitted, by the post office, to resign their situations, on making good the deficiency. When the lord lieutenant. found what had been done, he ordered the whole matter to be made public immediately. The whole case was laid before the law officers of the crown, with a direction to them to investigate the business fully, and to prosecute the parties, if it could properly be done.-This order was given within 24 hours after the papers had reached his hands. The prosecution did not take place, because it was the opinion of the law officers that it could not be carried on with effect. These were the circumstances of the case; but how it happened that they were not laid before the commissioners he did not know. He would not dwell longer upon this subject at present; his object was only to shew that great reforms had been made in that office, that the government of Ireland were adopting regulations for making it as perfect as possible. A penny post had been established, after the plan of the one in this country, and other improvements had been made. He would not take up more of the time of the House, but he trusted that gentlemen would bear in mind that this was not a new question; that it had been discussed before that the hon. baronet had taken advantage of his Courtesy in not giving it a direct negative before; [Sir John Newport said, across the table, he was afraid.] "Afraid!" said Mr. Pole, "I am sure the right hon. baronet does not mean to say seriously, that I was afraid to meet his resolution with a negative. However, if he does think that I was afraid upon the former occasion, I will convince him that I am not now, by giving his resolution a most direct negative." Sir J. Newport made a short reply. He read a letter from Mr. Forward himself, in which it appeared that that gentleman did not consider his situation a sinecure. Mr. H. Thornton observed, that what he had heard upon the subject would make him more than ever solicitous for the abolition of sinecures, and more especially of those secured by patent. Mr. Ponsonby remarked that the word patent appeared to carry in the hon. gent.'s apprehension some magical power. It was merely the evidence of the great seal to a grant, and could not secure that which it was illegal to bestow. A division then took place For the resolution............ 25 Majority............-57 HOUSE OF LORDS. Friday, May 4. [POOR CLERGY.] Lord Holland rose to give a notice relative to a subject which had been alluded to in his Majesty's speech at the opening of the session, namely the making provision for the poorer clergy. He trusted he should be enabled to prove that they were entitled by law to a provision out of funds which were at present appropriated by the higher clergy to their own use. He should not now, of course, enter into the discussion; but it was due, in fairness and candour to the House, to state the nature of his intended motion. It would embrace four objects, namely, the first for an account of the amount of the first fruits and tenths known by the name of queen Anne's bounty, which had formerly been received by the court of Rome, were afterwards granted to Henry the 8th; and finally by the bounty of queen Anne were, by act of parliament, converted into a fund for improving the situation of the poorer clergy; secondly for an account of the application of this fund, thirdly, for an account of the real value of all bishoprics, prebends, rectories, and all benefices of whatever description; and fourthly, for an account of all parishes in towns and corporations which had been united under an act of Charles 2d, He intended to make these motions on Friday, for which day his lordship moved that the Lords be summoned. The Archbishop of Canterbury observed that, with respect to two of the points mentioned by the noble lord, namely the amount of queen Anne's bounty and its application, he believed the information was already before the House; as to the third point, he should not now enter into the discussion; but he imagined that the noble lord must lay a very good ground | that the subject was one which had ocfor such a motion before the House would cupied his attention ever since the hon. accede to it. gent. had communicated with him upon it, and that he had a bill in preparation, which he trusted he should be able to produce to the House very shortly, and which he hoped would meet the objects which the hon. gent. had in contemplation. Lord Holland observed, that the information alluded to had not been presented this session. The motion was then agreed to. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Friday, May 4 [PRIVATE BILLS.] Upon a motion being made that the committee upon the Eversden inclosure bill should have time until Monday se'night to bring up their report, The Speaker took occasion to notice a subject to which he hoped gentlemen would turn their attention, in order to arrange by the next sessions some plan for the better economy and management of Private Bills. It appeared that bills of this description were sometimes three months before the House, during which the parties bringing them forward were incurring expence by keeping their witnesses in town, whilst those who meant to oppose them declined to present any petition until within a few days of the day fixed for bringing up the reports. Thus the parties applying were subjected to great embarrassment and expence, to which they ought not to be liable. With a view, therefore, to guard against such inconveniencies, which were not at all necessary to any just end, it might be proper that petitioners should be called upon to come forward within a certain time, at least before the day finally fixed for bringing up the reports. The motion before the House was perfectly in order, but he hoped the suggestions he had felt it his duty to throw out, would excite attention, and that some provision would be made against the evil referred to. The motion was agreed to. [ASSESSED TAXES.] Mr. C. Dundas, seeing the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his place, begged to observe, that having before Easter given notice of a motion, with a view of correcting certain abuses and vexations in the mode of collecting the Assessed Taxes, he felt it incumbent upon him to ask the right hon. gent. whether it was his intention to bring forward a bill upon the subject, within such a time as would in all probability secure its passing into a law in the course of the present session. The Chancellor of the Exchequer observed [PROPERTY TAX.] Mr. Grenfell observed that he had given notice before the holidays, of its being his intention to submit at an early period after the recess, a motion to the House upon the subject of the property duty laws. Such continued to be his intention; but as it would be unbecoming in him to occupy unnecessarily any portion of the time of the House; and as the legislative regulations which it was in his contemplation to submit to parliament might be offered when the bill of the right hon. gent. upon the subject of the Assessed Taxes, just mentioned, should be before the House, he should abstain at present from making any distinct proposition upon the subject; reserving to himself, however, at the same time, the power, if the bill of the right hon. gent. should be delayed to such a period of the session, as to make it improbable that his regulations would be discussed this year, to bring forward, by a separate motion, such propositions as the importance of the subject to the public might appear to him to require. [SPAIN.] Mr. Sheridan, after alluding to the notice of his right hon. friend (Mr. Canning) that he would early after the recess move for the production of papers upon the subject of Spain, if those upon the table should not answer his purpose; took occasion to move for copies of the correspondence already laid before the other House of Parliament, to which he did not understand that there was any objection, and therefore he would move without notice. In addition to those papers he would also move for copies of the dispatches addressed to lord Wellesley upon recalling him from his mission to Spain, together with that noble lord's answer, and also his address to the Spanish Junta upon that occasion. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, that it was through inadvertency alone that the papers alluded to were not now before the House, but they speedily would, and therefore he apprehended there was no occasion for any motion upon the subject. As to the other motions mentioned by the right hon. gent. he took leave to suggest the propriety of a notice, Mr. Sheridan accordingly gave notice of a motion for the day upon which his right hon. friend (Mr. Canning) had announced his intention of bringing forward a motion upon the same subject. occasion which referred to the fate of 7 or 800 persons, who were annually placed by the existing laws at the discretion of the judges, and expressing his surprize that all the gentlemen in the ministerial bench should have so completely concurred in opposing his motion, although it had no connection with any party mcasure, being purely of a speculative nature [EXCHANGE OF PRISONERS.] Mr. Sharp adverting to a notice which he had some time since given upon the subject of the negotiation with regard to the Exchange of Prisoners, said that understanding this-the learned gentleman concluded with negociation to be now extremely active, he did not wish to interfere by any motion lest it should affect its progress; and hoping, that its success would take away the grounds of his intended motion. submitting his motion, namely, for a return of the number of persons committed throughout England and Wales, in the years 1805-6-7-8 and 9, both at assizes and petty sessions, stating the crimes with which those so committed were charged-the number against whom no bills were found-those discharged by proclamation-those convicted-those ac quitted of the capital part of the chargethe sentences pronounced, and the execu tions which took place within the periods alluded to. Mr. Secretary Ryder expressed his disposition to comply with the wish of his learned friend, and assured him that nothing should be wanting on his part to promote the object of his learned friend, which he could not, however, pretend to say, was attainable. Sir T. Turton was sure that the thinness of attendance alluded to by the learned gentleman, was owing to the circumstance of so many of the members being engaged at the several sessions, otherwise there could be no doubt that the motion of the learned gentleman, or indeed, any measure, brought forward by him, would secure a full attendance. [CRIMINAL LAWS.] Sir S. Romilly rose pursuant to notice, to move for information which he thought it extremely desirable to have laid before that House, if it were only with a view to ascertain, if he might so express himself, the state of the moral health of the country. But it was peculiarly expedient to know the result of the experiments made by the enactment of certain penal laws to know, for instance whether it was necessary that capital punishments should attach to particular offences. Upon a recent discussion he observed that gentlemen on both sides of the question could only deal in presumption as to the number of persons convicted of certain offences, who had really suffered the sentence of the law; which presumption could, of course, be no guide for forming a correct judgment. It was, therefore, From the his object to get at the fact. returns in secretary of state's office no certain data could be collected upon this subject, for many material points were not The Chancellor of the Exchequer denied mentioned in those returns. He was aware that the information he sought for could that party spirit had any influence whatnot be obtained without difficulty. But ever upon the vote of gentlemen on his that difficulty could, he had no doubt, he side of the House, on the occasion alluded got over, as there were only six persons in to by his learned friend. Indeed, the susEngland, namely the clerks of assize, and picion of any party influence was comfour in Wales, to whom it would be neces-pletely negatived by the very thin attendsary to make application upon the subject. Independently of the value of the information which his motions had in view to the general police of the country, which value indeed was such, that in his opinion a regular register should be established for public reference of committals, convictions and executions throughout the kingdom, he confessed that he was induced to -bring forward these motions with a view to the renewal, next session, of the proposition which had been lately rejected by so small a majority. After deploring the thin attendance of the House upon that VOL. XVI. ance complained of by his learned friend. For surely if party spirit were at all excited, a much greater number would have been likely to attend on either side of the House than the whole who voted upon the motion of his learned friend. Sir S. Romilly again expressed his sorrow that upon a question so materially concerning the administration of justice and the lives of men, the attendance should have been so thin. He justified the expression of his suspicion as to the conduct of the other side of the House by observing that two thirds of those who voted against his 3 H |