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his majesty's speeches contained a full approval of this

measure.

Lord Viscount Melville again contended that his majesty's speeches only contained an approval of the general object of the committee of finance."

The Earl of Selkirk approved of the bill, upon the principle that it was to be considered as the forerunner of other great and important measures.

Lord Borringdon expressed his regret at differing from many noble lords with whom he usually acted; but when he considered that this bill had been supported by ministers, had passed the other House, and had been received with nearly an unanimous consent, added to the circumstances of the present moment, he felt it his duty to vote for it.

The House divided on Lord Holland's motion ;

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Majority

Strangers were not again admitted till the further discussion of the bill was over; but we understood that the House again divided on a motion for reading the bill a second time that day three months;

Contents

Non-contents.

Majority

The bill was therefore lost, Adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

TUESDAY, AUGUST 4.

15

9

6

A message from the Lords announced their assent to the Frogmore lease bill, the woollen suspension bill, the coffee warehousing bill, the British fisheries bill, the member of Parliament equity bill, the London coal bill, and others.

The consolidated fund bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed the next day.

Mr. Smith, from Greenwich Hospital, presented an account of the expences of that establishment, from April 1806, to March 1807. Ordered to lie on the table.

Mr, Huskisson brought in a bill for enabling merchants

to

1

to purchase warehouses on legal quays. Read a first time and ordered to be read a second time the next day.

The vote of credit resolutions were reported and agreed to, and the bills ordered accordingly.

The Swedish herrings bill, the military canal bill, and silk duty bill, were reported and ordered to be read a third time the next day.

The spirit drawback bill was reported.

Sir John Newport expressed his wish that this expe dient of suspension should be done away, and that the matter should be set at rest by some permanent measure. He hoped ministers would pay attention to this early in the next session.

Mr. Huskisson said, that there was every disposition on the part of ministers to settle the matter, but at the same time the honourable baronet must be aware that this was a question of some difficulty. The bill was then ordered to be read a third time the next day.

The West India produce auction duty exemption bill, and the Malta trade bill, were committed, and ordered to be reported the next day.

The foreign goods bill, and philanthropic annuity institution bill were read a third time and passed.

EDUCATION OF THE POOR.

Mr. Whitbread moved the further consideration of the report of the parochial school bill.

Mr. Davies Giddy did not intend positively to object to the bill in its present stage, although he certainly thought that some alterations ought to be made. He dreaded the danger of corrupting the minds of the poor by inflammatory publications, when they should be enabled to read.

Mr. William Smith observed, that the arguments against the bill proceeded upon the abuses of a thing very proper in itself. But if we were to carry that principle something further, we should not only shut the eyes but stop the ears of the poor. It was easier to persuade an ignorant multitude by inflammatory conversation, that the way to prevent famine was to pull down mills; that machinery prevented work for the people, instead of encouraging it by the increase of manufactures, and to poison their ears with pernicious and narrow views of that sort, than to inculcate sedition and immorality by writing. Besides, education was the mode to place them above all

efforts

efforts of this sort. He, therefore, was for expanding that in ellect which he could not do away if he would, and which he would not if he could.

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Mr. Pole Carew proposed an amendment, the object of which was to do away the purchasing of houses. It was better to have twenty schools in a parish than one, if that could be done, for he was an enemy to large establishments, which certainly had no tendency to encourage morality. He thought it could have no good effect to give refined education to the poor. He was persuaded that this plan would not have the effect of diminishing the poor rates.

Mr. Whitbread in reply stated that the arguments of the honourable gentleman had been refuted before in the House, and by every writer on the subject, and were more fit for the times when the poor laws were established, than for the present times. He talked of a refined education. What was it that was intended to be taught? letters; the ,elements of education. As to the twenty schools, that was suggested with a view to diminish the expence supposed, for then there would be twenty schoolmasters to pay! He - did not profess that this measure would immediately di minish the poor rates; he did not say that a man would cat less for being able to read; but he certainly did say, and maintained, that by elevating the minds of the people, you would make them ashamed of resorting to parish relief.

Mr. Pole Carew explained, and said that he did not think it worth while to notice the contemptuous manner in which the honourable gentleman had treated him.

Mr. Whitbread was sorry that his words or manner should convey a meaning which he never intended. He might have a contempt for the argument without having a contempt for the person that used it.

The amendment of Mr. Carew was then rejected without a division.

Mr. Davies Giddy brought up a clause relative to the mode of proceeding in vestries in cases of incorporated parishes. Mr. Morris also proposed a clause for confining the expence at furthest (for buildings we suppose) to three-pence in the pound sterling annually. Both were agreed to.

Mr. Pole Carew then objected to the preamble, both as far as regarded the alledged effects of education among

the

the lower orders, and as far as regarded the example of Scotland, about which we had not the requisite information. The advantages of Scotland migh proceed from the attention of their clergy, and other causes distinct from their education in parochial schools.

Mr. Windham observed, that different people were apt to mistake the effect for the cause. The education of the lower orders of Scotland might be owing to their character, and not their character to their education. And, with regard to teaching the poor to read, it ought to be considered that there was as much bad reading as good.

Mr. Whitbread would not consent to alter the preamble, which was the foundation of the bill. He had not expected that his right honourable friend (Mr. Windham) would have been in the House, and he was altogether unprepared for his opposition, though out of te derness to him (Mr. Whitbread) he had made it lighter than before. He was surpised and grieved that he should lend his. talents to those who seemed to think education an improper thing for the lower orders; but even against his great abilities he would engage to maintain, that education contributed to morality and virtue. He was astonished, that in a mind so enlightened, there should be a speck so dark. If he had not known that his right honourable friend was one of the most enlightened men of the age, he would really have supposed that he had heard another Jack Cade, who had accused Lord Say and Sele of corrupting the minds of the people by introducing grammarschools and printing, and nouns, and verbs and pronouns. When one opposed that for which he himself was remarkable, this was called the Devil rebuking sin." We heard of mathematicians who thought mathematics the only desirable education; of navigators who preferred navigation to every thing, and so forth; but here was a most remarkable thing; a man of the greatest knowledge himself opposing the communication of knowledge. There had been a description of men, indeed, from whom he would have been willing to withhold education, he meant the African slaves, because education would only open their eyes to a more horrid view of their situation, and therefore prove a perpetual punishment. But since the labours of his honourable friend, Mr. Wilberforce, had been at last crowned with success, and even the Africans were in a situation to profit by education, he would wish

to

to extend it over the world. What he wanted, was to [COM have men who should know their duties, and could therefore the better perform them; who should know their rights, and should therefore be more able and willing to defend them. If you did away the preamble, the basis: of the bill would be destroyed. In answer to what had been said about mistaking the cause for the effect in the case of Scotland, he only begged to refer gentlemen to what the character of the Scotch was, before these schools, as described by their own authors, one of whom (Fletcher) he had before quoted; they were thieves, robbers, drunk-, ards, vagabonds, and miscreants of the worst description. The change was attributed by the Lord Advocate of Scotland (Hope) and by others, who had the best informa-. tion on the subject, to these schools.

Sir Thomas Turton contended that we had not sufficient: information to warrant the citing of Scotland as an example, and that in many instances great danger might result from the ability to read in the lower orders. He referred, as an instance, to the late mutiny in the fleet, which had been encouraged by the reading of newspapers on the quarter-deck by the sailors, who perverted the sense, and turned it into what most suited their purpose. However, he did not wish it should be supposed that he was: against instructing the poor; he only objected to the mode. But he was convinced that the bill would be as a dead letter on the statute book.

Mr. Macleod said a few words respecting the advan-. tages of parochial schools in Scotland.

Mr. Windham in explanation said, that he had not been well understood by his honourable friend on the other side. He would take an opportunity to set himself right in his opinion, but at present the attempt might lead. to too great a length of discussion.

Mr. Wilberforce observed, that the honourable baronet (Sir T. Turton) seemed to be out of humour with his own opinion, and therefore he had hopes of him. The truth was, the principle he and others appeared to profess, would, if followed up, lead to consequences which they themselves could not possibly admit. If mankind were not to be instructed, it would pretty clearly follow that we ought in many instances to measure our steps back, and promote barbarism and ignorance. His gratitude to hea, ven for his existence was for the rational powers and the capability

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