and petty larceny were liable to the punishment of transportation, if the judges thought proper. Thus the law continued, until the revolution in America rendered it impossible to send over any more convicts to that country. As the persons so transported were bound in this manner, those that were rich could easily make such an agreement as that to them the punishment should be only exile, whereas to the poor labour was superadded to exile. In the beginning of the American war, the system of imprisoning convicts on board the hulks was first introduced; and an act was also passed, allowing the judges to transport convicts who were liable to transportation to any part of the world. A mode was then devised for re-. storing persons convicted of crimes to the habits of industry and virtue. This plan was first set on foot by the celebrated Mr. Howard, lord Auckland, and Mr. Justice Blackstone. Judge Blackstone, in his Commentaries, had descanted warmly on the advantages which were then expected from the penitentiary houses which it was proposed to establish. For 36 years a Jaw for this purpose had remained a dead letter on the statute book, although it was a monument of eternal praise to those who had framed it. While the law so lay dormant, a project was unhappily proposed to government, of sending the convicts to New South Wales to establish a colony there. It was, perhaps, the boldest and most unpromising project which was ever held out to any administration, to establish a new colony which should consist entirely of the outcasts of society, and the refuse of mankind. The persons sent there were not even left to their natural profligacy, but had a sort of education in the hulks, which rendered them infinitely more vicious than ever they had been before. In the month of February 1787, the first embarkation was made for this new colony, consisting of 264 convicts. was justified, from the report of a Committee of that House, in believing that the original profligacy of those men had been much increased by their long imprisonment on board the hulks. Instead of selecting for the first embarkation persons who knew any thing about country business, they chose only those who had been convicted in London and Middlesex, and who must, as inhabitants of a large city, be conceived most unfit persons for a new colony. Out of the 264, 233 who had been sentenced to imprisonment for only VOL. XVI. He seven years, had laid above four years in prison, and consequently had only three. years of their sentence remaining. This was a most flagrant injustice on the persons sent. During the many years since this colony had been established, the case was very frequent of sending over persons who, had been on board the hulks for above six years, and whose sentence would have expired in nine or ten months. When they were sent to Botany Bay, however, there was no chance of their returning in the time that by law they were entitled to their liberty. In fact, there was no provision made for their ever returning, and this was a most peculiar hardship and injustice to the female convicts. The only mode in which the male convicts were able, after the expiration of their sentence, to return home, was by working their passage, as they had not money to pay for it. What, then, was to become of the females to whom this resource was not left ? Several of them had been transported at a very early age, and the hardship and injustice which they sustained was a subject deserving of the serious consideration of that House. As to those men who returned from transportation, they were generally far more desperate and depraved. than when they first went there. The education was in many instances derision; for when young boys were sent on board the hulks, they acquired in a short time a matured virility in vice, which they would not have learnt so soon in any other school. This was, in fact, a subject to which the attention of the House had not been seriously called, from the first establishment of the system. Those who escaped from the settlement wandered among the islands of the South Seas, where they were the apostles of mischief. Their character perhaps fitted them for chiefs among savages: they taught them navigation and useful arts, and many of the missionaries found their labours ineffectual from those persons having preceded them. The expence also of this establishment was most enormous, and infinitely superior to that of erecting penitentiary houses. As to the difficulty of making the prison in Newgate a place for the reform of criminals, the book of sir Richard Phillips (to whom he thought very great credit was due for his attention to this part of his duty as sheriff), shewed that it was not possible. After paying some high compliments to the memory of Mr. Howard, he said that he was not, however, an advocate for so3 P litary imprisonment, unless combined with useful labour. To immure a man within the walls of a solitary cell, who was used to company and of social habits, was often a punishment worse than death, unless some suitable employment was provided for him. He concluded by moving an Address to his Majesty, praying him to direct the act of the 19th of his reign, relating to penitentiary houses, to be carried into execution. victs whom he had happened to see, and could by no means disapprove of an establishment which brought convicts to that sort of regularity and industry. He did not know but that the establishment of New South Wales might also act as a pe nitentiary. If a young lad was sent there for picking pockets, he might be reform. ed of that crime, by living in a country where there were no pockets to pick. (A laugh.) There was an absolute impossibi lity of committing in Botany Bay many of those crimes which were severely pu nished in this country. Mr. Secretary Ryder agreed in many of the general observations made by his hon. and learned friend. He thought that it would be better to put off the discussion Mr. Wilberforce admitted that, under for the present, and he should take every the care of Mr. Graham, the hulks were pains to inform himself fully on the sub- brought to uncommon order and useful ject, before it should be again discussed. ness. But still the penitentiary system As to imprisonment on board the hulks, was superior to any other that had been that was now very different from what it devised. The single cause which had left had been at the time the committee pre- that admirable system still a dead letter, sented its report. By the exertions of a was the difficulty of finding men who most able magistrate, Mr. Graham, a would let their ground for the buildings. mode of imprisonment, which was origi- As to the settlements in New South nally most unwise, had become salutary. Wales, the whole had been conducted The convicts were laborious and diligent, with an utter neglect of the natural pro and probably did obtain habits of indus- visions which were most important for s try during their imprisonment, which colony. Morals, the great cement of sowould be useful to them when the term of ciety, were thrown under foot; the go their imprisonment was expired. No es- vernment was corrupt, the subjects licen tablishment could be more economical, tious. For twenty years there was no for he really believed that, from the value church in the capital city. But last year of their works, the establishment support a ed itself. They were in general reputed to be such good workmen, that the lords of the admiralty had applied to him for the direction of one of their hulks, as they did not think they could find better labourers any where else. He hoped the honourable gentleman would not name a very early day, as he would wish to take time to inform himself perfectly on the subject of the establishment at New South Wales. Mr. Frankland complimented sir S. Romilly for the great attention he had paid to these subjects, and the many important observations he had suggested to the consideration of the House. Agreeing as he did with him in most of the principles he laid down, he wished, however, to allude to the materials that now existed in this country. He thought that names should go but for little; and that a place might be built and called a penitentiary, which would not answer the purposes of one; and, on the other hand a floating prison, called a bulk, might really be called a penitentiary. He praised the regularity and industry of many of the con governor was appointed by lord Cas tlereagh, from whose character the best results might be expected. The penitentiary system was the work of some of the wisest and best of men; of Judge Blackstone, Mr. Howard, and other distinguish ed persons: and it afforded the fairest hope of reformation among the lower ranks of the people. As for the jail of Newgate, it was a disgrace to the city of London He was only anxious that some gentleman, with better opportunities than him self, should take up the subject, and he would give all his support to the inquiry into its abuses. Mr. Windham said, that there could be little doubt as to what sort of moral discipline might be reasonably expected from a mere colony of thieves. If the necessary mixture could not be had, it was proposed that penitentiary houses should be established. They had been established. There were numerous peni. tentiary houses throughout the country. If the error was solely in the manage ment, how were they sure that the erection of new penitentiary houses would ob viate such an objection? He, however, did not object altogether to the principle; | but if such houses were established upon the plans proposed, he should be very jealous as to the manner in which the religious instruction was inculcated; it might be so done as to generate a sort of mischievous fanaticism superinducing hypocrisy upon their original depravity. This, however, would be a subject for after consideration, Mr. W. Pole would mention on the subject some of those circumstances which had struck him on a similar inquiry in Ireland. For want of transports, the convicts were frequently kept in prison for five or six years. It had been declared by the judges, that those years formed no part of the time of their exile. This induced the benevolent mind of the lord lieutenant to examine into so crying an injustice. An old law was found, which allowed the exile to be transmuted for an equal period in confinement. There were discovered sixty females, in cells of 12 feet square, 10 in each cell. Those women were put into penitentiaries; they became industrious, as they felt the enjoyment of light and air, and food; as they felt the pleasure of honest industry, they grew diligent and honest; work could scarcely be supplied to them sufficient for their new activity, and at the return of every week, there was an additional evidence of the signal power which encouragement and care had in reforming the most abandoned, and cheering the most unhappy. Sir S. Romilly, after a few observations on what had occurred in the debate, stated his intention of withdrawing the motion for the present, in conformity to the advice of some of his friends. He then fixed it for the 25th of May. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Thursday, May 10. [PETITION FROM READING RESPECTING THE COMMITMENT OF SIR F. BURDETT, &c.] Mr. Simeon said, that he had great pleasure in offering to the House a Petition from the borough he had the honour to represent, which formed a striking contrast with some, which, on account of the language in which they had been conveyed, had been rejected. The language of this, though firm as it ought to be, was respectful, and exhibited a good illustration both of the freedom of the constituent and the true character of the representative body, which, as its power was derived from the people, could never be better exercised than in relieving its grievances, and receiving with open doors its complaints, when properly and respectfully conveyed. The petition admitted the right of the House to commit, not only its own members, but also any stranger, for any breach of privilege, where necessity required it; but that such necessity was confined to the case of obstruction merely. The same necessity, in the opinion of the petitioners, did not exist in the case of libel upon the House and its members; and therefore, in their opinion, libel ought not to be punished by the House, but considering that freedom of person and freedom of the press were so essential to political freedom, such complaints ought to be prosecuted at common law, and brought before a jury. Mr. Simeon said, he had the misfortune to differ with the petitioners in this distinction; after the maturest consideration, and looking into the records of the House, and after hearing those able arguments which had employed so much of its time. The House having no public legal organ of its own by which it could prosecute, must depend upon the crown for its permission to direct its Attorney General to prosecute. Pending prosecution, if commenced, the Attorney General might stop the prosecution by nolle prosequi at any time, which made the popular branch of the legislature dependent upon the crown, and might be attended sometimes with the danger of compromising part of the liberties of the people, or of the privileges of the House (which was the same thing) as a price of prosecution, or endanger a feeble and inefficacious prosecution by the crown, if it had any interest which was in opposition to the privilege contended for, as might frequently happen. Now, supposing the crown to lend its aid, and to do its duty effectually to the prosecution, the whole must turn upon the Construction of the libel by the jury, which might be contrary to that of the House; in which case, the third branch of the legislature, consisting of 658 persons, comprehending as a body the great bulk of the property, talent, and education of the nation, and exercising practically and in effect the largest share of legislation, would be subjected to the judg ment of twelve jurymen, whose opinions upon the construction of a written paper might leave the House of Commons under its dignity, independence, and just preponderance; but the petitioners have been taught, and believe, that the privileges of the House are not of higher value than the prerogatives of the crown, and that both the one and the other were given solely for the benefit of the people, the ultimate end and object of all good and rational government; and that the two such contamination of character as to expose them to the contempt of the nation, and to the triumphs of the crown. No man had a more ardent love for the trial by jury than he had considering it as the palladium and shield of the public liberty, and that the freedom of the press was equally essential. The only objection could be a fear of trusting the House of Commons with this power, which, how-greatest benefits that Englishmen enjoy as ever, it had exercised for near two centuries at least; but considering the trust reposed in the crown, in the exercise of its prerogative, and the trust reposed in the other House of Parliament, which was the ultimate and final court of judicature, binding finally by its decisions the property, the liberties, and lives of the subject; he could not think that the cool and judicious part of the nation would be afraid of trusting to their own elected representatives a power to commit for libel, which, as tending to vilify the Commons' branch of the legislature, undermined the true freedom of the public, and opened the way to all the bloodshed and miseries of anarchy and confusion. He concluded with moving, That the petition do lie on the table. Mr. Shaw Lefevre seconded the motion of his hon. colleague, and said he felt great satisfaction that the petition was so pure, and the language so respectful, as to defy even the most fastidious to raise any objection on that head. If there was any thing exceptionable in the prayer of the petition, another opportunity would occur for its discussion. For the present, he would only say, the meeting at which this petition was signed was called by the mayor; it was most numerously and respectably attended, and the decision was unanimous. The motion passed, and the Petition was received and read; setting forth That the petitioners consider it to be one of the undoubted rights of the people to lay before the House their grievances of every 'kind, and that this right in no wise ceaseth, or is diminished, when the cause of complaint originates within the walls of the House; and that the petitioners have witnessed, with great concern, the commitment of Mr. John Gale Jones to Newgate, and of sir Francis Burdett, baronet, to the Tower, for alleged libels, without any examination of evidence upon oath, and without any trial by jury: far be it from the petitioners to wish to disarm the House of any privilege that serves to maintain a free people are the liberty of person and the liberty of the press: the right of public discussion is the strongest barrier against every species of tyranny and op pression, and if at any time this right be abused for purposes of libel or sedition, these offences are cognizable in the courts of law:-Summary commitments in execution by way of punishment for libel, are considered by the petitioners as an encroachment on the trial by jury, injurious to the liberty of the subject, and the liberty of the press; and that the power of commitment may be necessary for the protection of the House in cases where obstruction is actually given or menaced; but the petitioners are not aware that any such obstruction made the exercise of that power necessary in the cases of Mr. John Gale Jones and sir F. Burdett, or that any mischief or inconvenience was likely to have ensued if their cases had been let to be decided in the ordinary course of law; and therefore praying, that the House will discharge Mr. John Gale Jones and sir F. Burdett from their confinement.”. Ordered to lie on the table. [PETITION FROM READING RESPECTING A REFORM OF PARLIAMENT.] Mr. Shaw Lefevre then rose and said that he held in his hand another Petition, which he begged leave to offer to the House. It was voted at the same meeting, and transmitted at the same time with the petition just received, and prayed for a Reform in the representation of the united kingdom in the Commons House of parliament. He moved that the petition be now received. Mr. Simeon seconded the motion; but begged leave at the same time to observe, that although the requisition to the mayor for convening the meeting at which the petitions were voted, had been signed by a number of respectable persons who were voters, yet the meeting consisted of the inhabitants at large, whether voters or not, who were very numerous; so that the voice and opinion of the real electors might be completely drowned by the voice of those who had not the elective are not freeholders nor burghers in corporate towns. Would it be said that the inhabitants of those great and wealthy mingham, and others he could name, had no right to discuss nor to petition parliament for reform, or for any other purpose in which their interests were concerned? franchise, which might mislead the House. There was nothing to guide the House but the names subscribed to the petition, and here there were only twelve names sub-manufacturing towns, Manchester, Birscribed, though he did not doubt but that there was a numerous meeting, of different descriptions, and many other voters amongst them. Those who had signed were very respectable in situation and character. He had noticed this distinction the rather, because those who were in general the secret engines of these meetings, were desirous, for their own purposes, of bringing in a multitude of persons, whether electors or not, to carry a favourite point; not considering, or else intentionally concealing from the real electors, that it was an act of political suicide on their part to suffer their opinions to be swallowed up by a shew of hands of every person present, of whom, perhaps, ninetenths might not be voters. This was an intimidation of the real voters, who, perhaps, durst not express their opinions upon popular subjects, urged by artful demagogues; for fear of the maltitude that surrounded them. He admitted, and gloried in the admission, that the humblest peasant as well as the wealthiest gentleman should be the object of our care and attention; and that the property, the privileges, and life of the poorest were as much entitled to protection, as the richest: all he meant to argue was, that those who were the legal electors were the constitutional judges of the conduct of their members, and of the representative body which they had elected: and that their political opinions, for the sake of themselves and of their own independence, ought to be kept separate, in order to preserve their character and weight in the constitution; for they would speak with more weight when they were to speak the pure voice of the constituent body. Mr. J. W. Ward said, it was impossible to suffer this petition to pass without some answer to what had fallen from the hon. gentleman. Was it possible that any member of that House could say there was any man in this kingdom who had not as good a right to discuss and to sign a petition of that nature praying for a parliamentary reform, as any freeholder or burgher in the kingdom, however legally authorised? If any one argument could be stronger than another for parliamentary reform in the constitution of that House, it would be the denial of that right to discussion and petition in the persons who Mr. Simeon rose to explain. He had been much misunderstood by the hon. gent. He had particularly guarded against the construction which had been put upon his words; for he admitted in the fullest manner, and rejoiced in the right of every one, even the humblest and lowest subject of the realm, to petition the House upon any subject of grievance, whether he was an elector or not; but the opinion of the real electors upon the conduct of their representatives, or the House, for the sake of their own weight and consequence in the state, ought to be exercised as purely and distinctly as their franchise was exercised in giving their votes for electing a member of parliament; and that those who, for private purposes, called in persons who had no vote to mix in the deliberations of those who had a vote, destroyed or lessened the consequence of the real electors, and wished to govern by a mob. The separation did not deprive those who had no vote of the right to petition, or lessen it. With the greatest respect to the petitioners, he was bound by his constitutional duty as a member of that deliberative assembly, to suspend any opinion upon the important subjects to which it alluded, until after he had heard them debated. Saving, therefore, to himself such opinion as he was bound to form and act upon, after hearing all the arguments that could be urged upon any pro-position that might be offered for the public good, he was happy to second the motion for receiving the petition offered by his honourable colleague. The Petition was accordingly brought up and read; setting forth, "That the petitioners have observed, of late years, and especially during the present administration, an entire difference of opinion between the people and their representatives in parliament upon almost every question of general feeling and national importance; and being sensible how much the stability of our constitution depends upon the restoration of mutual confidence, they sincerely lament that difference, and beg leave to draw the attention of the House to the grounds and causes of it; and that |