more fit to be adopted upon a matter of such importance, than that of moving the appointment of a Select Committee to consider of the proceedings had and to be had in reference to the Notices communicated to that House by their Speaker.

The Speaker observed, that perhaps the more convenient way, in the first instance, would be to enter the Notices as read, and then move for the appointment of the Select Committee. The Notices were ac. cordingly entered as read.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer then move 1, That there be appointed a Select Committee to consider of the proceedings had and to be had, with reference to the Notices served upon the Speaker at the instance of sir Francis Burdett.

clude with an order to report. As to the great question involving the privileges of that House, Mr. Adam said, he had made up his mind upon it. His conviction was, that their privileges must be maintained inviolate by resolving and acting according to their privileges; therefore he saw no reason for a Committee at all; at the same time, if it was the wish of others, he should not object to it; but then it must be confined and restricted. He thought the motion, as it was now worded, transferred to the Committee the powers of the House, and established them as a committee of direction, which was most objec tionable, as it admitted of a construction inconsistent with their privileges, and raised a doubt where none existed. A Committee might, for the satisfaction of members who had not had leisure themselves to search, be appointed to report facts and precedents, but not opinions. He would therefore suggest the propriety of a verbal alteration in the motion, authorizing the Committee, so appointed, to report to the House facts and precedents.

The Speaker observed, that the usual method was to insert in such motion certain formal words of instruction to the Committee.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer was proceeding so to alter his motion, when

Mr. Whitbread expressed a wish that the right hon. gent. would condescend to put the House in possession of the grounds upon which he thought it right to move for the appointment of a Committee. The right hon. gent. might have reasons, which. though satisfactory to himself, might not when stated be equally so to many others who had come down to the House, without having yet made up their minds upon what was the best course to be pursued in a case of such unprecedented difficulty. The Chancellor of the Exchequer replied, that it was with a view to obviate the necessity of any discussion in the present stage, that he had moved for a Committee in the first instance. To provoke a debate upon the case as it then stood, would only be calling upon the House to do that which could be so much more conveniently done by the Committee. Besides, the House could not be so well enabled to form their judgment, upon what would be the most advisable mode of proceeding, before they had been furnished with the result of the Committee's deliberations. They would judge of the report made by the Committee, and act upon it accordingly; but he thought that before they had received the opinion of that Committee, Mr. Adam stated, that it had so happen upon the course they would recommended, that in the course of that morning, in to be pursued, any discussion upon what would be that best course, would be premature, and defeat the very object of the motion he had made.

Mr. Adam rose, and objected to the terms of the motion, as too general, vague, and undefined: that it adopted the words in which the communication was made, which were very proper as communication, but very unfit as resolution. He obTerved that the motion did not even con

Mr. Adum suggested the propriety of requiring the Committee to give in their Report upon a certain day. The time of notice was nearly expired, and there should be as little delay as possible, upon a matter of such importance. The more he considered the subject, the more serious he thought it. He wished therefore that the Committee should be required to report within a certain time.

The Speaker apprehended that it was not usual with the House to limit the deliberations of their Committees, by compelling them to deliver in their Reports upon a specific day.

searching for precedents, he had met with the case of Mr. Hobart's servant: having been arrested for debt. The Committee appointed upon that case were directed to give in their Report upon the following Wednesday.

The motion then stood thus :-"That a Select Committee be appointed to consider of the proceedings had and to be had, in reference to the Notices communicated by Mr. Speaker, to examine into facts and

precedents, with reference to the said Notices, and to report the same, with their opinion thereupon to the House."

consequence of a communication made to the House by their Speaker; the object of which communication was, he presumed, to obtain the directions of the House in the very important case to which it referred. He did not think that the present motion was calculated to answer that object, and he had serious doubts how far it would be right in that House to receive instructions from a Select Committee upon the question of their own privileges. They would do well to consider, whether the appointment of a Committee would not tend more to excite than to remove the doubts respecting their privileges, which unhap pily existed at this moment. If they could receive any communication from a Com

should relate only to such facts as they had examined into, and upon which they judged it necessary to report their opinions; the business of such Committee, however, would more properly relate to facts than opinions. He, however, entertained such serious doubts of the propriety of appointing a Committee to give the House information as to its privileges, that he should beg leave to suggest the propriety of adjourning the present debate rather than appointing a Committee.

Mr. Whitbread rose to oppose it. He said that from the commencement of that unhappy contest down to the present stage of it, the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer had gone on step by step with equal ignorance of what ought to be done, and equal improvidence as to the consequences of what was done. He first persuaded the House to commit itself in such a contest, without foreseeing or providing against the consequences of his own rashness and precipitancy, and then, as soon as it became involved in the embarrassments they led to, the right hon. gent. asked leave to take the Easter Re-mittee upon such a subject, he thought it cess to consider the best means of extricating them from the difficulties his councils had created-the Easter Recess passed, the right hon. gent. came before them, and proved in his very first proceeding that he was as ignorant and as improvident as ever. He did not know what to do, but still he would be doing; and accordingly he made a motion, which he (Mr. Whitbread) agreed with his learned friend (Mr. Adam) would, if carried, have had the effect of delegating to a Committee the question of the House's privileges, of which the House itself was the judge. If the House thought proper to submit to be so led by the right hon. gent. from one step to another, they would have themselves alone to blame if they found themselves guided from error to error. The fact was, that throughout the whole business the conduct of the right hon. gent. had shewed that in his views of that question he had been guided by no fixed principle. He did not know what to propose to the House; he had no advice to offer; and not knowing what to do, he proposed that a Committee should be appointed to inform them what they were to do. Under such circumstances, it would be disgraceful, in his opinion, to transfer to a Committee what was their own business. Let the House meet the question at once, and decide upon what proceedings. it would become them to pursue; and not resort to the appointment of a Committee, as if it were designed as a pretence for procrastination. For these reasons, and because no reason whatever was advanced by the right hon. gent. in support of the motion, he should vote against it.

Mr. Ponsonby said, that he understood that the present motion had been made in

Mr. Secretary Ryder said, that what had fallen from the hon. gent. who spoke last but one, was only a renewal of that general abuse in which he was in the habit of indulging, and which did not require an answer. But with respect to the observations of the right hon. gent. who spoke last, he would beg leave to observe, that the mode recommended by his right. hon. friend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, was that which was usually adopted by the House upon similar occasions. With respect to the objection of the Committee dictating to the House, he did not think that was a fair statement of the proposition; the opinion of the Committee was not obligatory upon the House; they would use their own discretion; and on the report being made, it would be for them to follow or not to follow whatever suggestions. it might submit to their final consideration. He was sure that the House would be able to decide after they had received the report more satisfactorily and conclusively than they now could do after such a desultory debate as might be expected in the present stage of the business.

Mr. C. W. Wynn thought, that the objection that had been made to delegating the authority of that House, on the question of

their privileges, to a Select Committee, had great weight. He knew of no way of obviating that objection, but by referring the case to the Committee of Privileges, instead of that which it was proposed to appoint. Mr. Tierney complained of the difficulties into which the House had been led step by step by the ignorance of the right hon. gent.; at their breaking up for the recess he had set them a sort of Easter task, and so well in the interim had the gentleman himself learned the lesson he was to teach, that he now called upon the House to appoint a Select Committee to give him and them the necessary instructions. The right hon. gent. had pledged himself to consider the subject. Had he done so? and if he had, what was the result? that he neither knew what to do or what to advise; if this was not the case, why appoint the Committee; or even if it was, why call upon any Select Committee to teach the House their privileges? The right hon. gent. was bound to consider the consequences of the rash proceedings he had been so earnest with the House to adopt. Suppose the Select Committee should be for pleading and that that House should be against pleading, would not a schism of that kind tend to strengthen all the growing prejudices against their privileges? He did not think it right that the Committee should give an opinion, for he could not consent that the question should be prejudged before it came under the consideration of the House in general. He concluded with moving, to leave out the words "with their opinion thereupon," so as to confine the Committee merely to report precedents and facts.

that an individual commenced proceedings at law against their Speaker for issuing his warrant in obedience to the vote of that House; yet unprecedented as was this circumstance, happening too at a period teeming with those monstrous and unheard of novelties, which are at once the peculiar characteristic and disgrace of the present times, his Majesty's ministers pass over the whole business as an ordinary occurrence; the Notices are ordered to be entered upon the Journals, and nothing more is heard of them till three weeks after; till within a day of the term; the day after to morrow would be the first day of term, and the month would soon be expired. Was there, he would ask, nothing in that impertinent paper, calling itself a Notice, to awaken the attention of ministers? Ought they to have slept upon it so long? Or ought they not rather to have seized the earliest opportunity of bringing the question to final issue? In expressing his opinions openly and frankly upon this question, he believed himself to be discharging a great public duty, because in doing so, he did all that lay in his power (limited as was that power, and humble as was his influence) to counteract a great public delusion, by which the honest, the undesigning, and unwary, were made the pliant dupes and tools of artful men. Such a crisis did not admit of negligence or delay. Why had nothing been done in consequence of those notices till that day, when the day after to-morrow would be the last day of term?-Did not ministers know that this action was threatened, and what excuse had they in delaying to take any steps, until the day.but one before Mr. R. Dundas could not see with what term? If they were ignorant of the proper justice ministers were chargeable with ig-course for the House to follow, why did norance and rashness; was it to be contended that those who voted for punishing an attack upon the privileges of that House, and for calling forth its authority in defence of its privileges, were criminal, because they did not foresee that that authority would be resisted?

Sir Arthur Pigott said that three weeks had already elapsed since the Speaker had communicated to the House the Notices in question. That communication had been made on the 17th of last month, and it was now the 7th of May; the proceeding was entirely new; it had never before occurred; never in the times of the worst reigns, when that House was contending for the liberties of the people in their assertion of their own privileges; never was it known

they not at first recommend the same step which they now propose? The delay that occurred was highly reprehensible upon a question involving such important considerations-a question attended with the most perilous difficulties-a question, whose issue went to affect the constitution of parliament, and which was so seriously expected by the public-a question upon which he himself never had and never could have a doubt, notwithstanding all that was duly circulated by the persons. initiated in the new school of Privilege. Of the Privilege of that House to commit in all cases for offences against itself, be not only never had a doubt, but he was convinced it could not part with it, without surrendering all its legislative, its inquisi

dered the best course in this stage to ap-. point such, he would only give it his assent in the manner specified in the amendment of his right hon. friend, namely, that it should examine into facts and precedents without reporting any opinion of its own.

The Solicitor General expressed his perfect concurrence in every word uttered by his learned friend, respecting the extent of the privileges possessed by that House. The impression of his speech upon that point, he would not attempt to weaken by a repetition of the same arguments; but he was conscious that every member of that House, if it was to exist at all as an estate of Parliament, must see the utter impossibility of drawing any distinct line of difference in the exercise of its power to commit for offences against its privileges. Adverting then to the narrower part of the question, namely, what course ought to be adopted in conse. quence of the Notice of action served upon the Speaker, he could not subscribe to the inference drawn by gentlemen opposite, when they blamed ministers for having suffered so much time to elapse without pursuing the proper course. Why, when the House of Commons was attacked, were ministers to be considered the only persons to recommend what ought to be done in consequence? Was it respectful to the House itself to say that its privileges should only be protected by his Majesty's ministers? The threatened action was against the House, and it was equally the duty of all to propose the proper means of defence. If also there was any blame for the delay that had occurred, it attached to one side as much as to the other. But it was said, that the proceedings which led to this state of things were the act of the ministers. Such language should never be received but with reprobation. It might, indeed, be a popular argument out of doors, but never ought to be sanctioned within the walls of that House. Those proceedings were adopted by a majority, and the moment they were agreed to, they became the acts of the House of Commons. With respect to the measures which the House

torial, and judicial functions. But it was contended by the disciples of the new school, that the power of the House did not extend to libels. It extended to all offences committed against itself. It was contended that the libel should be tried by a court of law. How was the House in such a case to proceed? It could institute no process, nor bring any action in its own proper character. It must supplicate the crown to take up such a prosecution. Whatever, under such circumstances, was the decision of a court of justice, it was open to the party prosecuted to appeal to the House of Lords, and by such an act the House of Commons was reduced to the necessity of having its own privileges tried and determined upon by an estate of parliament, with which it ever claimed a Co-eval and co-extensive authority. Contemptible and shallow were these pretenders who ventured to deny this right, and to insult the crown by an affected regard for its dignity, which they considered was impaired by the exercise of that privilege. It was astonishing that the threat of action had not before been taken notice of; that in this novel and unprecedented case, the House had not taken some steps or agreed to some resolutions expressive of its opinion and determination upon the subject. Besides, when he considered the daily trash circulated upon this subject, he was more deeply impressed with the necessity of that House entering into resolutions which might prevent the progress of that delusion, which, though disregarded by every reflecting mind, was calculated to deceive the ignorant and the unwary. Had it before done so, the present emergency might have been avoided; not that he thought the individual.who gave the Speaker the notice of his intention to bring an action, would be induced to desist, but that his instruments would be prevented by the determination of that House. Suppose that the Lord Chancellor, having committed an individual for contempt, had been told, sitting on the bench, by an attorney, that it was his intention to bring an action for false imprisonment on the part of the person committed? What course would his lordship in such circum-ought then to adopt, he was friendly to stances take? Was it not to be presumed that he would at once order the attorney to the care of one of his lordship's tipstaffs? That the House had the power to act at once he was fully satisfied: nor did he see the necessity of appointing a Committee at all; if, however, it was consi

the appointment of a limited Committee, which should search into all facts and precedents, and report its opinion. From that report the House would be able to arrive at a conclusion, which being duly and fully considered, would be acted upon with that determination which the case rendered absolutely necessary.

that it was to be recollected that the original motion for the Committee was not worded after due preparation (by its proposer, Mr. Perceval), so that it could not be supposed that he would be tenacious in adhering to it. It was worded on the sudden, adopting the oral dictation of the chair. The mover could have no desire,

Mr. Windham said, that the question di- | doctrine of this new school of privilege vided itself into two branches. One as to would be beaten down, and the just right the conduct which had hitherto been pur- of that House and the people unquestionasued; the other as to what would be ex- bly established. Mr. Adam said, he did pedient, under the present circumstances. not rise then, however, to detain the He complimented sir A. Pigott for the House with the repetition of opinions which broad constitutional doctrines which he he had already discussed at so much length, laid down, and professed his agreement but merely to recommend such a modifiwith him in the narrower, as well as in cation of the original motion, as should the wider view of the question. The si- insure that unanimity, which was most tuation of the House at present, was, in desirable in the step that the House was many respects, novel; but there did not adopting, and at the same time to secure appear to him to be that ground of doubt against the committee being empowered as to the proceedings they should adopt, to deliver opinions, which would convert to call for the appointment of a Committee. it into a committee of management or di If, however, such an appointment was rection, and would embarrass the House thought necessary, the House should not in coming to a decision, on the only prindelegate its power to the Committee; it ciple on which it can act, namely, by enmight happen, that, in case of difference forcing obedience to its privileges, ac between the Committee and the House,cording to its power. Mr. Adam said, people would begin out of doors to dispute as to the right of the House to differ from it. Time was also to be considered of importance in the present stage of the business, and therefore, he was of opinion that the power of the Committee should be limited to search into facts and precedents, and that no report should be given. Sir T. Turton severely censured minis-therefore, strenuously to support it against ters for having suffered this matter to be dormant from the 12th of April to the 7th of May. It was disgraceful, that a notice should have been suffered to be served on their Speaker, and no discussion had on it for almost a month? They were told by one hon. gent. that they ought to come to a decision as to their future proceed-upon the question at large, in addition to ings, because the term began on an early day. What! were they to be afraid of a court of law, or to think any court could touch their rights? The very notice was, in his opinion, deserving of being treated as one of the grossest breaches of their privilege. Would they allow process against their Speaker, and that he should be treated as a private individual? The very discussion of such a question was an insult. He did not mean to approve of the proceedings into which they had lately been led, on the ground of expediency, but he must defend them on the ground of privilege, on which it was impossible they could be censured.

any modification. What he would recommend was, that the Committee should search into precedents and examine into facts only; and by acceding to that modification, celerity, a most necessary object, would be obtained; whereas, if the House called for a report of their opinion

the other embarrassment connected with the power to give opinions, considerable delay must be the consequence; and the House be clogged with the opinion of the committee.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer was glad the hon. gentlemen over the way had at last argued themselves into the opinion that no party consideration ought to enter into this debate. When he first introduced the subject he had thought, that if ever there was a question which ought not to call forth party feelings, it was this; and he was therefore the more surprised at the warmth it excited in the hon. and right hon. gentlemen opposite (Mr. Whitbread Mr. Adam expressed his coincidence in and Mr. Tierney). He was now called every argument and observation of sir A. on in candour to agree to an amendment, Pigott. He said, most truly had his for the sake of unanimity. Why, if he allearned friend shewn, that this great ques-lowed himself to be persuaded to this, antion affected the very constitution of Parliament, and that, if the House did its duty with fairness, the absurdities of the

other gentleman might start up, as the hon. gent. had done, and accuse him of incapacity, vacillation, want of foresight,