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tythes more cheerfully than the Catholies did. But he begged the House to consider the justice of this plan as it respected the clergyman. The hon. gent. would first pay him, not according to the full amount of the tythes, but according to the net value of the living. Now he begged the hon. gent. to apply that principle to the parish which he had before mentioned. In that parish the incumbent let the tythes to the curate, and of course the hon. gent. would only allow for the net sum received by the incumbent, leaving out of the question all that was received by the curate, which certainly upon every principle of justice, ought to be taken

It would have been

suppose that government were not disposed to alleviate the sufferings of the people, if they did suffer; but it would be unfair not to take into consideration all the difficulties that presented themselves. The great difficulty was, that the landlords got more for their lands than they ought to get, and, in his conscience he believed that that was the chief cause of the dissatisfaction that subsisted. One of the plans which had been most strongly recommended in order to remove the complaints respecting tythes was, that of leasing them; but he was convinced, that when gentlemen looked at the state of Ireland, they would agree with him in thinking, that to give power to the incum-into the calculation. bent to lease the tythes for a certain num- as well perhaps if the hon. gent. had inber of years, would not afford any adequate formed the House in what manner he relief. In considering this subject, he had meant to lay this tax which was to supof course endeavoured to obtain informa-ply the place of tythes, so that the mass tion from every quarter, and among others, of the people should not know that they he had applied to the clergyman of the were in fact paying tythes. There was parish in which his house stood, and asked something very extraordinary in the prohim the number of persons from whom he position of the hon. gent.; did he mean received tythes. The answer he re- to say that the Catholics ought not to pay ceived was, that the number who paid tythes? If he did, let him state that protythes last year was 1937. This seem-position fairly at once, and he would see ed to be a great number; but the clergyman added in his letter, that the tythes of a very great proportion of these persons did not exceed from 1 to 10 shillings. From this statement, the House would at once see the difficulty of granting leases of tythes. The clergymen would let them to what is called in Ireland a middle man, that person would let them to another, and so on, until the person who was to pay the tythe, instead of one shilling, would have to pay five or six. The hon. gent. in his plan for abolishing tythes, seemed to think it necessary to ascertain not what the whole value of the tythes in each parish was, but what was the net value of the living, and then to lay a tax upon the people to pay the clergymen the value of this net receipt, now from this net receipt the hon. gent. would in the first instance, according to his own principle, have to deduct tythes paid by all extremely poor persons, whom be meant to exonerate from this burthen. -And this tax was to be laid in such a way, acording to the hon. gent.'s plan, that the Catholics were to pay it without actually knowing that they paid tythes. The hon. gent. had himself admitted that the Catholics were convinced of the justice of paying tythes, and certainly there were no people in Ireland who paid their

what reception it would meet with from the House. If he meant that the Catholics should be subject to the tythes, why not let them at once fairly and distinctly know what they were paying? One of the grievances complained of certainly was the conduct of the proctors of non-resident clergymen, but the great source of the evil, he would still maintain, was the circumstance of the landlord taking too high a rent. With respect, however, to the grievances resulting from the conduct of the non-resident clergymen, he hoped they would be in a great degree, if not entirely, removed by the bill for enforcing the residence of the clergy.-He regretted very much that he could not agree with the proposition of the hon. gent. but he thought it would be highly improper to go into the Committee without having something specific proposed to them. If he had proposed a bill, and stated what provisions that bill was intended to contain, the House could then have proceeded to the discussion of those provisions; but to resolve at once to go into a Committee, without at all seeing their way through the difficulties that surrounded them, would, in his opinion, be not only useless but injurious. No man could possibly feel a more anxious solicitude upon this subject than his Majesty's ministers

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did; they had many plans in their contem- | But it was not alone the expectations held plation; but upon a mature investigation, out to the people of Ireland at the time of they were found impracticable. Still how- the Union that intitled them to redress, he ever, they were anxious to put this subject contended, that they had additional claims upon a better footing; and during the re- to a modification of the tythes. For his cess he would devote the utmost of his atown part, he must ever regard the marked tention to it, and he trusted that by the inattention of ministers to every applicanext meeting of Parliament, he should be tion for the redress of the Irish people able to propose some plan to the House, upon this subject, as a gross breach of or if he could not, he should at once state those pledges by which the noble lord that he considered the measure as imprac- (Castlereagh) had contrived to accomplish ticable. He should not follow the hon. the Union. But this pledge was not made gent. through the calculations he had merely by the noble lord, but by the made respecting the number of persons right hon.gent. (Mr. Pitt) whose successor professing different religions in Ireland, the present minister boasted of being, aye, because he did not think that they had any and by the right hon. gent. himself (the application to the question before the Chancellor of the Exchequer) who, immeHouse, though he should have no difficulty diately upon his succession to office, proin shewing that the hon. gent. was in many mised to take up the business. That right instances erroneous. But he believed that hon. gent. however, was contented to propersons of all descriptions were anxious mise, and from session to session to renew to apply some remedy to this evil, as they that promise, without any apparent intenconsidered it. Whether he agreed with tion to fulfil it. The last speaker now them upon that point or not, still he felt succeeded to the same system of promise, that it was the duty of government to allay and he very much feared he would suceven a prejudice, or to shew that they ceed to the same system of performance had done every thing in their power to re- also. The right hon. gent. called upon move the cause of the complaint. But he the House to wait until next session, and thought it would be highly improper to go that then he might do something. But into the Committee without having previ- was it fair thus to deal with the people of ously a rational chance of success; if they Ireland?-and if they must wait, would were to do so, they would excite a flame the enemy wait also? Would that enemy of expectation throughout Ireland, which who was ever active in his hostility to the they would not find it very easy to allay. British empire, decline to avail himself of He had shewn that the plan proposed by the neglect of the English government to the hon. gent. was attended with insu- perform its engagements to the Irish peoperable difficulty. The hon. gent. had ple? Would he overlook the discontent. declared that none of the plans which had with which the severe oppression of the been previously proposed met with his tythe system was perpetually corroding approbation; under these circumstances, the mind of the Irish? This was a consihe confessed he did not see any chance of deration to which that House ought to succeeding in the object which they all attend, ere it was yet too late. They had in view by going into the Committee should take care to strengthen Ireland, as at present, he therefore felt himself bound, Ireland was the vulnerable point, and that though very reluctantly, to oppose the strength was best to be produced by removing the discontents of its unfortunate population. The people of that country had really been so very ill treated upon the subject of the motion, that it could not be too emphatically urged upon the consideration of the House. At the period. of the Union, an article was inserted in the act of Union for abolishing the tythes of agistment, because, according to the distinct declaration of a learned prelate in the Irish House of Lords, that measure must be carried as one of the conditions of an acquiescence in the Union. But the complete commutation of tythes was also promised. The latter, however, not hav

motion.

Sir J. Newport said that if expectations of remedy for these evils had not been held out at the time of the Union, that measure would not have been so easily accomplished; and contended that government, having held out these expectations to the people of that country, were bound to take every measure, and consult every means of effecting what was then so solemnly held out. But now, instead of applying the remedy the same expectations were renewed, and the same offer was made, as was made two years ago, of doing something or other after the recess.

ing been granted, the effect of the former | had spoken of the canting of lands in the was wholly to transfer the burthen of county of Waterford; for himself, he tythes from the rich landed proprietors to could say, that he had never canted an the poor. It might be pretended, that acre in the course of his life, nor had he there was no distinct pledge at the time ever turned out an old tenant. The right of the Union to accede to a commutation hon. gent. had stated what was done in of tythes. There might have been no his parish; and, as it was but fair to set written bond; but there was that which one parish against another, he would state was equivalent to a bond in the mind of what was the case in the parish where he men of honour. There were prospects resided. The effects of a trial of the sysheld out in various directions, and pro- tem recommended by his hon. friend (Mr. mises made by the highest authority, that Parnell) was to throw upon the rich the a commutation of tythes should be one of burden before altogether borne by the the first consequences of the Union; and poor. By a general tax on pleasure these promises he could assert had princi- grounds, &c. they had lightened the tax pally served to reconcile many to the on arable lands and the ground where adoption of that measure. Still it was potatoes were cultivated. Then, why possible that the same miserable expe- might not this system be extended dient might be attempted with regard to throughout the country, every these promises which had been resorted of which might be made to participate to upon the subject of the claims of the in the benefit? Why might not clerCatholics. How the pledges to the Ca- gymen be content to receive the same tholics had been evaded could never es- sum, in peace and comfort, which they now cape the recollection of that House or of obtained through everlasting turmoils and the Irish nation. But the evasion was disputes? As the tithe system at present glaring. He could prove at the bar, as existed, no part of it was favourable to he had before offered, that those pledges the Protestant religion. It would never had been actually made. He could in- extend it. The letting of the smaller tedeed shew, by irrefragable testimony, how nants to curates was not calculated to the noble lord (Castlereagh) had managed promote the interests of religion; indeed the business-how the Catholics had re- it had quite a contrary effect. As for the ceived a solemn promise in one room, right hon. gent.'s argument concerning while a different promise was made to the proctors, it was not correct, for they were Protestants in another-and how the pro- employed by the resident, as well as the mises to both had been grossly violated-non-resident clergy. He had consulted how the noble lord

66 Kept the word of promise to the ear, "And broke it to the hope."

many clergymen on this subject, and, among others, one most valuable authority, who had been resident in his parish But although all the promises to the for 40 years, and that reverend gent. had people had been disregarded, promises to said, that if a clergyman for one year individuals were rigidly fulfilled, and Ire- collected the tithes of his parish, he would, land had in consequence to deplore, among from a view of the disasters and distresses other evils, an absolute degradation of it occasioned, be an advocate for comthe judicial function.-The right hon. mutation ever afterwards. By these gent. was, in his opinion, extremely wrong proctors a great sum was diverted from the in founding his argument on this ground, pockets of the poor, in vexatious law suits, that all the Irish gentry were most avari- &c. which never came into the hands of cious, raising their rents to the utmost the clergyman.' The mode, too, in which limit, and thereby begetting a feeling of these proctors often concluded their bar resentment in the tenant, towards the gains with the tenantry was very produc clergy, for exacting dues they were so ill tive of oppression. They would call a able to pay, after discharging the griev-meeting at the ale-house, kept by a bro ous imposition of their landlords. Hether, a nephew, or some relation, and 'could not see how the House could interfere in the letting of lands, even at higher rates than they were worth, between landlords and tenants. But, because they could not remedy this, it was no reason why they should not remedy what was within their power. The right hon. gent.

there feed at the expense of the parishioners. Other meetings of the same kind frequently took place before the agree ment was concluded, and at length it was terminated, after dinner, when the peasantry were half-drunk, and unable to at tend to their own interests. It was thus

and controuling powers, would be ready to state their being entirely favourable to the system of his hon. friend. The House of Commons were not fully acquainted with all the circumstances attending this Irish question, and, therefore, were not able to apply the necessary remedy. But inquiry would give them full information, and then they might come to a just decision. As for its creating a flame of expectation, this was the usual and general objection. The contrary was the case-for when the people saw that the House was in earnest, prosecuting measures for their relief, they would be satisfied. They would be satisfied, even though the result should be that no remedy could be found. If the other course was pursued, and inquiry stifled, it would be the source of rooted and bitter discontents.

that a cant was called in Sligo, and the tithes sold to the highest bidders; from the conclusion of which many disturbances ensued. The measure now proproposed would not injuriously affect the clergy. If they had an equal income, they could not be interested in the mode in which it was raised; and he knew that many of the higher order condemned and abhorred the existing system. For these, and many other reasons, it was, that they called on government to remedy that vicious system. It was admitted by all to be wrong; therefore, they ought to have a remedy. But the right hon. gent, opposite said, "No! do not inquire. Trust to me, and, by next session, I will propose a measure of redress." For his part, he would rather trust to the collective wisdom of 658 members of parliament. It was also said by the right hon. gent. " do not hold out expectations which may never be realized." This came very ill from those who had held expectations to induce a nation to make the greatest sacrifice a nation could make. They were. also told to wait for a year. Would these gentlemen be able to persuade a foreign enemy to wait? Would it not be better to heal and consolidate the empire against all external attacks. Were one great part of it to have no inducements but promises thrown out and never made good? Were they to be told without inquiry, that remedy was impracticable. As for his hon. friend (Mr. Parnell,) he had not said what was imputed to him. He said that the Catholics would pay, in an indirect manner, the same rate more cheerfully than they would pay it directly to a Protestant clergyman. This argument was held good by the example of that respectable body of men, the Quakers, who paid more than they would do, were they compelled to pay direct Mr. L. Foster thought it better to en tythes. The right honourable gentle- dure some evils than attempt to remedy man had also urged the inequality of the them, unless a digested plan were laid collection of tythes. This very inequa- down to proceed upon. Such a plan he lity was what was complained of In had not discovered in any speech he had one parish they took tythes on potatoes, heard. The hon. gent. opposite had ar which was not done in another. In one gued on general principles. His first ge part there was a modus to relieve from neral principle was the abolition of tythes; the tythe of flax, which was not allowed his second was, that the treasury should in other parts. These were grievances, pay the lay impropriators; his third, that and it was indeed strange to hear them a tax should be substituted for the pre now adduced as reasons for not complain- sent tythes. These were all speculations, ing. He would not enter into a detail of in which the hopes of the projector must particular facts; but he knew many of inevitably be disappointed; and there the parochial clergy of Ireland, who, but fore, he was averse from giving them any from the dread of offending the superior sanction or countenance, by sending them

Mr. W. Pole in explanation stated that he did not mean to cast any reflection upon the Irish gentry, but upon the middle men, to whose conduct, he fully be. lieved, was attributable the greater part of the oppressions of the poor. Indeed, he was warranted in this belief from a fact which had lately come to his knowledge, In consequence of some recent disturb ances in a particular part of Ireland, which he had yesterday mentioned to the right hon. bart, government thought it its duty to send down a person specially to inquire into the cause, and the result of his inquiry was, that the disturbances were owing entirely to the manner in which a man, who had just obtained a lease of a large estate, had let out the ground at a rack rent to the people. Such was the communication officially made to the Irish government, and such was the nature of the case in his mind, when he abscribed so much evil to the misconduct of landlords.

for consideration to a Committee. No doubt tithes were felt as an inconvenience; so were rents, taxes, &c.; still they must be borne, and it was nothing but folly to contend against them. Gentle men in that House, arguing from their knowledge of the practice in England, were apt to have a very erroneous opinion of the system of tythes in Ireland. In that country small tithes were unknown, and the abolition of tythes of agistment exempted pasture lands from any payment. A third of the property in tythes too belonged to lay impropriators, and in this any change would be severely felt, and create much confusion; for in these the property had for centuries descended from father to son, and were the foundation of family settlements. The House he was sure would therefore be cautious of interfering with such property, and consequently the principle of legislation now proposed must be exclusively applied to the other two-thirds. The hon. gent. then adverted to the resolution of the Irish House of Commons in 1735-6, by which those demanding the tythe of agistment and those concerned in the recovery of them by suits at law, were declared enemies to their country. This vote he condemned severely, as having diverted the arable into pasture land, and thereby being inimical to the population and civilization of the country. By it the tax passed from the rich grazier and fell upon the poor man's potatoe garden. It was possible, that those who approved of thus taking one half from the clergy, might wish to take the whole; but to him it appeared much better to restore the part taken away, than, by secret measures, to form a substitute for the remainder. He would stand by what was left them. He, as much as any man, deplored the system of proctorage; but he could see no means of getting rid of it by any legislative measure. In itself, he was happy to observe it carried the seeds of decay. In Ireland it appeared from the report before the House, that there were 1,180 benefices, on which there were only 740 glebehouses, and 500 of the clergy were nonresident. The late act was, no doubt, very salutary; but, till the glebe-houses were completed (which active exertions were employed in carrying into effect,) complete residence could not be expected. As this succeeded, the proctorage would consequently decay. He was ready to go hand in hand in any rational amend

ment that could be proposed, but would rather wait for the gradual effect of the system, than go into a committee to encourage rash and unfounded hopes which must end in dissappointment and necessa rily lead to discontent.

Mr. Herbert agreed perfectly with the hon. mover in all his views upon the question. If the statement of the right hon. gent. (Mr. W. Pole) was correct, it would act as an eternal barrier to the commutation of tythes. For he had said the clergy had now only one-twentieth, instead of one-tenth, which they ought to have; and that any change must have the effect of restoring their original claim. One tenth of the produce was one-sixth of the whole value of the land; and he would say, that were this to be allowed for the performance of clerical duties, it were much better, instead of the exactions, to do away with the law itself. He had one other great objection to the system of tythes-they fell on the industrious, and spared the idle. He wished a committee to be appointed; as, however it might now be urged to the contrary, he was convinced, a better mode of tything, than that now existing, might be devised. He concluded by warmly panegyrising the motion, as calculated to produce the utmost benefit to Ireland.

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Mr. M. Fitzgerald had been instructed most earnestly by his constituents, to impress the necessity of the measure, proposed by his hon. friend, upon the House. Had the pressure of tythes not been in nerai very severely felt, he could not have had such instructions from a county, which, from its nature, was as little liable to them, as any in the country. He gave his most cordial support to the hon. mover, who had stated many aggravated facts, which were sufficient to induce even the friends of the tything system to call for inquiry. He therefore hoped the House would not withhold it. In their argu ments, the hon. gentlemen opposite had confined themselves to the plan of his hon. friend, but they ought to have an swered the numerous observations thrown out by him, which were in themselves sufficient to demand inquiry. There were many plans of redress to each of which plausible objections might perhaps be made, but the fact was, there did exist a great evil, and ifa committee was appointed, and should even report that no remedy could be discovered, that proceeding it self would satisfy, and induce the Irish

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