I will not, Sir, take up the time of the House, by entering upon an inquiry into the objections that can be brought against tythes, as a mode of collecting money from the people: it is enough to say, that it is condemned by all writers on taxa. tion, as inconsistent with every principle connected with that subject. As to agriculture, it is sufficient to say, that Dr. Paley condemns them as a most mischievous restriction. But as to the agriculture of Ireland, they form an obstruction which it is the interest of the people of this country instantly to remove. It is now fully proved that this country cannot possibly provide grain enough for its own consumption. I wish then to know where a supply is to be had, so long as the Baltic is shut by the decrees of Buonaparté, and the trade with America put a stop to by the embargo, where, except in Ireland? What would have been the distress of this country during the last two years, had it not been for the importation of grain from thence, will appear by examining the quantity imported; in the last year it was no less than 800,000 quarters. Is it not then an object of British interest, to remove from the agriculture of Ireland this great obstruction to its extension and improvement? I have now only to call the attention of the House to one more topic, to illustrate the necessity of a change of the present tythe system. What effect has it had upon the tranquillity of Ireland? The insurrection of the White Boys was of 30 years continuance. This was succeeded by the United Irishmen, who were principally induced to embark in the conspiracy against the government by arguments founded on the grievances of tythes. To them succeeded the insurrection of the Threshers. So that for a space of 50 years, a continued system of active and open resistance and insurrection has disturbed the tranquillity of Ireland, arising from this mode of paying * *If tythes had been commuted according to Mr. Grattan's plan, a very powerful engine would have been taken out of our hands." Evidence of Dr. M.Nevin, 1798. † An insurrection that was against the mode in which tythes were collected, and not against tythes as a provision for the Protestant clergy; the oath of the association requiring that tythes should be paid to the clergy and not to proctors. the clergy. Surely this circumstance alone, if no other existed, to prove the absolute policy of an alteration of system, is quite sufficient, and ought to induce the House to assent to my motion. I have now, Sir, explained to the House such reasons as occur to me, to shew that the peculiar circumstances of Ireland require a new manner of providing for the established clergy, independent of the general objection which may prevail in this country against the tythe system. I have shewn, that the religion and poverty of the people, the injustice of the laws, and the long continuance of insurrections, give to the question a character quite distinct from that which belongs to it in England; and therefore that a reform may be effected without prejudice to the interests of those who are concerned with tythes in this country. In regard to the plan by which a reme. dy may be provided, I have no objection to state the opinion I have formed respecting it. I am aware, that it would be properly considered as temerity in me to pledge myself to any specific plan, or to call upon the House to adopt any plan on my recommendation: this I do not mean to propose; all I desire is, that the House will pledge itself to inquiry, and, accord ing to the result of its investigation, adopt that plan which shall seem most expedient. That it is impracticable for the wisdom of the whole House to discover any plan, is a supposition which I cannot entertain, nor shall I ever believe it to be true, till proper attempts have been made, and the inefficiency of their labours been fairly shewn. In the view that I have taken of the subject, my great objects have been; first, to exonerate the peasantry; secondly, to get rid of the direct payment by the Catholic, Presbyterian, or Quaker, to the Protestant clergyman; and lastly, to give the clergy a just and fair equivalent. To the several plans that have been proposed of giving land, or corn rents, or of selling the tythes, though very fit for a country like this, abounding in capital, and accustomed to the execution of measures of great labour and detail; as applicable to Ireland, there appear to me to be great objections. The proprietors of estates in Ireland have had an opportunity of pur-, chasing on very easy terms from the crown, the quit-rents chargeable upon them; and yet few purchases have been made, though the quit-rents are of small annual amount; a circumstance which | 800 in number; 100 of them have inshews there is no probability, that, if the comes above 300l. per annum, the rest tythes were to be sold, purchasers would have incomes below 2001. But I believe be found. If land were to be given in I am correct when I say, that no great lieu of tythes it would be found extremely dependence ought to be placed on these difficult to get it, without paying for it statements, it having been the object of most extravagant prices. And as to the the learned Doctor when he made them, plan of corn rents, this objection exists to to prove the great poverty and distress of it, that those who do not profess the es- the clergy. The more accurate way of tablished religion would continue to pay taking the value of the income derived directly to the established clergy. from tythes, is to adopt the prevailing opinion that they cannot be less than 500,000l. per annum, of which one-third belongs to lay impropriators. It is better and more candid to calculate on a sum somewhat large, than to lead the public to adopt a great measure on false data, and thus to produce disappointment. In respect to the means by which the Treasury shall be provided with this annual sum, it is not necessary for me now to point them out; this would be a fitter subject of consideration for the committee; but this is quite plain to be seen, that if the public purse is relieved from paying tythes, as they are now paid, it will be available to give the same amount in some other more convenient channel. In regard to securing the incomes of the clergy from the effects of the depreciation of money, I should propose that they should be regulated periodically by the prices of grain; if they had been so fixed in the year 1799, the average price of wheat then being for the last 29 years, 49s. 4d. per quarter: and of the last 10 years, to 1810, 83s., each clergyman in 1799 entitled to 100l. per annum, would now be entitled to 170/. and surely an arrangement that would give so large an advance, would have been one favourable to the clergy. But when I say that the incomes of the clergy ought to be increased as the prices of grain advance, I must also add that they should be diminished as they fall; because I consider the present high prices of grain not to be real prices, but to be the result of a depreciation of bank paper, of not less than 20 per cent. an evil that I trust will be remedied, by adopting the measures that will be recommended by the committee now sitting on that subject. I do not, however, mean at this time to say, that I have formed a decided opinion upon these several plans; and I wish to be understood in what I say respecting any plan, as reserving to myself a right to take advantage of the investigation of the proposed Committee, and to alter my opinion, if I shall think proper so to do. Under this qualification, I submit to the House the following as an outline of such a plan, as I conceive would give an effectual and a fair remedy for all that is complained of. 1st. The value of each benefice should be ascertained; 2d. the net income of it paid by the Treasury; and, 3d. the improved value of it secured to the incumbent, by a regulation to provide against the effects of a depreciation of money. In respect to the valuation, there is an act of the Irish Parliament, which would be a good precedent to govern the proceedings. It was passed in 1787, to give the means of compensating several of the clergy of the south of Ireland, who had lost their tythes by the insurrection of the White Boys. This act enabled the chancellor to appoint commissioners with full power to enquire into the value of the livings of those clergy to whom tythes were not paid. The value of them was ascertained, and compensation thus given to the suffering clergy. By following the same course, the value of each benefice might be easily and satisfactorily attained. As to the amount of the fund which it would be necessary to provide for the payment of the clergy, it is not easy exactly to ascertain it. In a publication of a right hon. and learned Doctor (Duigenan), it is stated that the number of the clergy is 1,300, that their whole revenues divided among them would not produce 150l. per annum to each of them, thus making them amount to 195,000 per annum; but from this is to be deducted the annual value of 20,000 acres of glebe to obtain the annual amount of tythes. In a speech of the same learned gent. printed in 1791, he says, the parochial clergy are In proposing, Sir, this extensive alteration, I am fully aware that I am making myself liable to a charge of invading the rights of the clergy;-but I feel that I can defend myself from such an accusation if it shall be made, in the first place, by saying that I am discharging a duty my constituents have imposed upon me; and se that some hon. gentlemen may be ready to condly, by a reference to the nature and legal import of those rights. I have not embarked in this undertaking of attempt ing to induce the House, to adopt the measure of a commutation of tythes without examining the grounds on which those rights are founded. I find it is laid down by Mr. Justice Blackstone, "that tythes are due of common right to the parson of the parish, unless there be a special exemption"-and in explaining what the meaning of an exemption is, he says, "lands may be exempted by prescription or by a real composition.-A real composition is where an agreement is made between the owner of the lands and the parson or vicar, with the consent of the ordinary and the parson, that such lands shall for the future be discharged from the pay-rangement, which in my opinion, would ment of tythes, by reason of some land or other real recompence given to the parson in lieu and satisfaction thereof. This was permitted by law, because it was supposed that the clergy would be no losers by such a composition. But experience shewing, that even this caution was ineffectual, the disabling statute of 13 Eliz. was made." * The inference to be drawn from this statement is, that the common law recognizes the principle of composition or commutation. That if I proposed to give land in the lieu of tythes, I should propose to do that which was strictly conformable to the common law. That when I propose to give money, though I do not propose a real composition, I propose what is consistent with the principle of one, because I take care that the clergy shall not be losers by the composition. I am aware this objection may be made, that in proposing to pay the clergy out of the treasury, they will lose the solid security of land. But to this I can answer, that tythes in Ireland are held by such a tenure, that if the treasury went, they must go also; for the system of government which preserves the one, must continue in order to secure the other.-Not so in England. The treasury might fail here, and at the same time no attempt be made to deprive the clergy of their unquestionable claim to their property in tythes. On the whole, therefore, I feel entitled to say, that in the outline of the plan which I have stated to the House, I have in no degree asked the House to invade the just and legal rights of the clergy of Ireland. I have not, I am aware, proposed to do all * 2 Blackstone's Comm. 25. operate as a sufficient remedy for the evil complained of. The plan is strictly consistent with the legal rights of the clergy; the valuation of benefices may be made on tried and established precedents; the value of the incomes of the clergy may be protected against the depreciation of money; the indigent poor may be exonerated by it from the payment of tythes; and the clergy themselves relieved from great vexation and great loss, by this mode. of attaining their provision *. It is, in truth, a plan nearly similar in every respect to one proposed to the Irish House of Commons, by a right hon. gent., the member for Dublin, in 1786. It differs: only in this respect, that he proposed to raise the fund for paying the clergy by a baronial tax, and that I propose to raise it by a tax of a general nature, so that the Catholic, the Quaker, and the Presbyterian, shall no longer actually or directly make any payment under the name of a tythe tax to the Protestant clergy. * "Whenever a better plan shall be suggested for the payment of the clergy, that is one equal in value to them in suc-cession, and more convenient to the laity, they will thank the statesman, who shall disencumber them of the constant trouble and the occasional ill-will arising from tythes." State of Church of Ireland, by Richard Bishop of Cloyne, p. 52. "In 1807, 141 actions respecting tythes were tried in the Queen's county, at the quarter sessions; 146 in the county of Sligo; 198 in the county of Kerry; 283 in the county of Limerick; and 653 in the county of Tipperary."-From papers laid before parliament, decision so repugnant with every principle of the constitution, and at this time so inconsistent with every principle of sound policy. Rather let them do that which it is obvious they ought to do. Shew the people of Ireland that at length the time is come when this country is ready to fulfil the engagements on which the measure of Union was carried, and that it is sincere in a determination to do justice, and to afford redress to the long neglected and oppressed people of Ireland. in that country, as they shall judge it proper to direct their attention to." It only remains for me to call the attention of the House to a point, which I must always allude to whenever this question comes before it: I mean the fact, that the people of Ireland believe that relief from tythes was promised to them as a condition of the measure of Union. I know no article visibly and expressly exists to bind this country: but I know Mr. Pitt held out this relief as an inducement to the people to admit the measure. I know that the speech in which he called the system of tythes a great practical evil, and promised redress, was circulated through Ire- I beg leave to move, "That a select land at the expence of government; that Committee be appointed to inquire into it was distributed gratis in every village the manner in which tythes are collected of the kingdom; that the agents of go- in Ireland, and such other matters relating vernment were instructed to tell the peo-to the levying and collecting of tythes ple that redress would be the result of the Union; and I know the universal opinion of the people of Ireland now is, that the faith of this country is pledged to grant that redress. What sort of policy then will it be for the minister of this country, at this period of time, to attempt to prove to the people of Ireland that they have formed an erroneous expectation-would it not be better, under all the circumstances of the case, the admitted necessity of a change, and this confirmed expectation, to meet the feelings and the injuries of the country; and to grant the redress that is desired? As to the motion which I am about to make, I beg the House to understand its true purport; it is one calling on them, to do what?-only to enquire into the complaints of the people of Ireland, laid before them by petitions, in a respectful and constitutional manner. This is all that is now asked; and will the right hon. gent., the prime minister of this country, at a time when the mass of the population of Ireland have been placed in a state of despair, in consequence of the unexpected obstacles which have arisen in the way of the great measure of emancipation; when the most powerful, the most enterprising, and the most successful enemy that this country has ever had to contend with, is on the eve of becoming master of the peninsula of Spain, and ready to take advantage of our divisions, and to carry into effect his long intended and favourite project of invading Ireland, that vulnerable part of the British empire; will, I say, the prime minister of this country refuse to inquire into the just and well-founded complaints of Ireland? I advise him, and I advise the House, to take care how they come to a Mr. Wellesley Pole requested the indulgence of the House for a few minutes, while he stated his sentiments upon the subject which the hon. gent. had brought forward. It was one which had long engaged his attention, and had been the object of his most anxious solicitude; it was one to which his Majesty's ministers had most seriously devoted their thoughts. In many of the points which had been stated by the hon. gent. who had just sat down, he perfectly concurred. He admitted that it was a subject of the greatest importance, and that it was the duty of government to apply a remedy to the evils complained of, provided it could be done consistent with justice; but he did not agree with the hon. gent. with regard to the remedy which he had suggested, nor could he give his assent to the notion with which the hon. gent. had concluded. He could not give his assent to a motion for the House now to appoint a Committee to inquire into this subject, because he thought it would be most injurious to the cause which all parties had in view, and most unjust to the parties concerned, for the House to appoint a Committee to inquire into this subject, without seeing their way much more clearly than they did at present, and without having some rational prospect that that inquiry would be attended with success. If the hon. gent. had moved for leave to bring in a bill, and had stated the provisions which he meant to introduce into it, if he had proposed any specific plan, he would have been ready to discuss that plan; but the hon. gent. had pursued a different course; he had proposed to refer all the petitions, which had been presented to the House, would produce the desired effect, and yet to a Committee, and to desire it to con- each of these plans had been strongly resider the whole subject, and to devise some commended by persons who had devoted remedy, although the hon. gent. himself their time to the consideration of this subhad not, with all the information that he ject. In one part of his speech the hon. had obtained, and with all the diligence gent. seemed to think that the clergy had which he had employed, been able to an undoubted right to the whole of the propose any plan to the House himself. tythes, and yet when he came to suggest The hon. gent. had stated, that the great his own plan, he had stated, that in making evil respecting tythes, arose from the mode the clergy a compensation, it should be of collecting them.-That he did not ac- for the tythes as they were first established, cuse the body of the clergy, but the and not for the tythes as they were now. greater part of the oppressions were prac- He really had never heard such an idea tised by the proctors, whom the clergy broached before; in all the plans which were obliged to employ. It appeared to he had ever heard suggested, it had never him that the hon. gent. was mistaken with once been proposed that the clergy should respect to the source of the grievances, not have their rights fully secured. In which were complained of. The griev- his view of the subject that object ought ances, in his opinion, arose from a cause always to be carefully attended to; (sir not perhaps generally known to the mem- J. Newport nodded assent)-he was happy bers of that House, but it was proper that to find that upon that point he had the it should be fairly stated to them. A concurrence of the hon. baronet, who had practice had prevailed generally through- turned his attention so much to the quesout Ireland for a great many years, of tion of tythes. He had himself often and letting their lands by public cant, that is, anxiously looked to this subject, and from of letting them to the highest bidder, all the reports which he had seen respectwithout any consideration of the incum-ing it, it appeared to him that the lay im brances to which the land was liable. The consequence was, that ignorant persons bid for the land, and gave the full value for it, without at all considering that in addition to the very high price that they paid, that they had also to pay tythes. It appeared to him that the tythes ought to be considered as the first rent to which the land was subject; but ignorant persons, as he had before stated, in their eagerness to get the land, agreed to pay the full extent of its value, without reflecting that besides that rent they had to pay the tythes. The landlord forced the tenant to pay the rent, and when they were unable to pay the tythes, supported them against the clergy and the proctor, so that in fact the landlord was the oppressor, and not the clergyman, the lay impropriator, or the proctor. He could assure the House, that this subject had been for a long time under the consideration of ministers, that several bills had actually been prepared for the purpose of applying some remedy, but upon mature examination, it was found they could not be carried into effect with justice to the parties interested. The hon. gent. had declared it to be his opinion, that none of the plans which had hitherto been suggested by those who had devoted their attention to this subject, viz. those of corn rents, of selling or of leasing the tythes, VOL. XVI. propriators received about one third of the tythes and the clergy the other two thirds; but instead of receiving one-tenth, they did not receive, in some cases above one twentieth, and in others above one thirtieth. But in any plan proposed for the relief of the Clergy, the plan must be founded upon the principle of their being intitled to one tenth. Here then was one great difficulty; he did not mean to say that the difficulty was insuperable, but it must be obvious to every gentleman that it was an obstacle which it would not be very easy to get over. It undoubtedly was the duty, and it certainly was the sincere wish of his Majesty's ministers, to endeavour to get over these difficulties, and to adopt if they could, a plan which would do justice to all parties, and give general satisfaction; but he was sure that the House would agree with him, that it would be highly improper to give hopes and to raise expectations, when there was not a fair and rational chance of accomplishing the object in view. Another difficulty, and a serious one too, was, that in different parts of Ireland tythes were paid in different ways. In some places tythes were paid upon potatoes, in others they were not. In short, there were so many diversities that it would be most difficult to frame any general system that would embrace them all. No man, he was sure, could 2 X |