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the subscribers to be repaid at any time they may be at liberty to present a pell. by bills of exchange upon the court of tion to the House, praying that they will directors in England, these drafts which be pleased to take the matters aforesaid hare now come upon them could not have into their consideration, and to grant to been prevented. 2d. By the anexpected the petitioners such relief in the premises calamities that have befallen the shipping as their case may require, and as to the of the petitioners in the two last years,

House shall seein meet.” whereby they have experienced a loss Ordered, “ That the said Petition be in the prime cost of merchandize, ad. referred to the Select Committee, appointvances on account of freight and the ed to enquire into the present state of the value of a ship belonging to them- affairs of the East India Company ; and selves, to the extent of 1,048,0771., the that they do examine the matter thereof, causes of these losses shewing them to be and report the same as it shall appear to pot imputable to any want of care in the them, to the House." petitioners, are to be explained at length [Sir Francis BurdetT'S NUTICE TO to the Committee of the House sitting apon THE SPEAKER.] The Speaker acquainted Indian affairs. And that, from a pros- the House, that he had received a paper pective estimate of

pecuniary transac- signed “ Francis Burdett," the contents tions of the petitioners from the 1st of of which related to his being apprehended March 1810 to the Ist of March 1811, it and committed to the Tower of London ; appears that their unavoidable disburse

--and the said paper was thereupon, by ments will exceed the probable amount of direction of the House, read by Mr. their receipts by the sum of 2,038,9481., Speaker, and is as followeth : which sum it would be highly disadvanta-To the right honourable Charles Abbot, geous to the petitioners at the present period to raise by increasing their capital

• Speaker of the House of Conimons. stock, as they are by law authorized to • Sir; You having, on or about the 9th do ; and that their commercial resources day of April instant, as Speaker of the never could, in the most flourishing times, House of Commons, forcibly broke and be commensurate to the discharge of large entered the dwelling house of me, the portions of the Indian debt contracted in ' undersigned sir Francis Burdett, situate the administration of the British empire in Piccadilly, in the parish of Saint in the east, and now. amounting to thirty James, Westminster, in the County of millions sterling ; and that, in this time Middlesex, and having also, on the said especially of restriction upon commerce, 9th day of April, caused me to be apprethe commercial resources of the petitioners hended and unlawfully committed to a cannot but be incompetent to provide for 'certain prison called his Majesty's Tower such unexpected and excessive contingen- of London, and to be there imprisoned cies; and that the accounts made up and as yet kept and detained in prison by the petitioners to the 1st of March there, without any reasonable or prolast shew that the property and effects of bable cause whatsoever; I do therefore, the petitioners in England, and afloat according to the form of the statute outward, then exceeded the amount of • in such case made and provided, hereby the debts of the petitioners in England, in- ' give you nodice that I shali, at or soon cluding the heavy and unusual drafts from • after the expiration of one calender India before mentioned, by the sum of o month from the time of your being 4,842,1451. which sum,the petitioners trust, served with this notice, cause a bill to be will afford sufficient security for the re- filed against you in his Niajesty's Court payment

of
any

advance the House may of King's Bench at Westeninster, and a think proper to vote for their relief; and *writ of summons to be thereupon sued that, owing to the multiplicity of accounts out of his Majesty's said Court of King's necessary to be made out before the peti- | · Bench at Westminster, against you, at tioners could procure an estimate of their my suit, for the said trespass and false probable receipts and payments between imprisonment, and shall proceed against ihe 1st of March 1810 and the 1st of March you thereupon according to law. Dated 1811, the petitioners were unable to be this 12th day of April 1810; Yours, &c. prepared with a petition submitting their

• Francis BURDETT.' case to the consideration of the House by (Endorsed) John Ellis, of Gray's Inn the day limited for receiving petitions for Square, in the County of Middlesex, private bills; and therefore praying, that attorney for the within named sir Francis

Burdett.'

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The Speaker said it was at the option of duty. If no one else should do it, he the House whether the Letter should be would himself propose an address to that entered on the Journals.

eflect. Mr. Ponsonby thought that the Letter Sir Neroport, as an instance how nu. ought to be upon the Journals.

gatory such regulations were, adverted Mr. Whitbread was of the same opinion. to the case of Mr. Villiers, who had been The Letter contained nothing that could reappointed in 1803, two offices being make it unfit to be received ; and it might then consolidated into one, with a special be the ground of great questions herealier provision that he should enter into a bond to be tried.

of security, which he never did. In the · The Letter was thenordered to be insert very oflice now to be regulated, Mr. Hunt ed on the Journals.

had broke through a statute. So nugatory [Securities Bill.) Mr. A. Cooper was it to legislate in many of these matmoved for leave to bring in a bill to re- ters. The true way to prevent such evils gulate the taking of securities in all offices, in future, was to punish defaulters for the where securities ought to be taken, and to past. These delinquencies would peravoid the grant of offices, if the securities petually take place until the House comwere not given within a certain time. He pelled the ministers to punish public desupposed the House would have no objec- faulters, and to be answerable for losses tion to the bringing in of the bill.

incurred through their negligence. Acts Mr. Horner said, that it was not enough were of no use when those who were the to say that he supposed the House would law makers were the law breakers, and he have no objection to the measure. Some- should have a pretty strong case of that kind thing more was required to shew the to state on Monday. necessity for a new law. Such laws for Leave was then given to bring in the the most part were nugatory. To avoid bill. the grant of an office, when the same (TYTHES IN IRELAND.) Mr. Parnell de. persons who granted had the power of re- sired that the Petitions presented to the appointment, would amount to nothing. House in 1803 might be entered by the The man would be told, that it was very clerk as read, and spoke nearly as follows: foolish in him to have neglected to give Sir; In rising to make a motion which his securities, and after this slight repri- has for its object the improvement of the mand he would be again appointed. The condition of the people of Ireland, and to public might lose considerably in the conciliate their affections to the conmeantime. This was nothing more than nexion subsisting between these countries, I abrogating the power of the Commons to feel that I have a strong claim upon the atpunish delinquents of this sort, with the tention of the House. But when I reflect additional evil of accumulating useless upon the new obstacle that has arisen in statutes.

the way of carrying the great question of The Chancellor of the Erchequer replied, emancipation, I feel that this claim is pethat with all the ingenuity of the hon. culiarly strong, because it has become the gent.—and few men could possess more duty of this House to take every practicahe could not prove that this bill would be ble method of counteracting the effects of nugatory. It appeared that persons in the disappointment and despair which this office had continued a long time without obstacle has occasioned. The House entering into securities. This bill would could do nothing that would so much conat least save the greater part of the time. tribute to an end so desirable, as by acAs to avoiding the office, it was true the ceding to the motion I shall conclude person neglecting to enter into the secu- with, and shewing the people of Ireland rities might be reappointed; but by the that the subject of Tythes will be fully inavoidance of the previous grant, he would vestigated; for though this may be a be obliged to refund all the salary he had subject greatly inferior in importance to received. If the bill should have no ope- the emancipation of the Catholic body, ration but this, he thought it would be a still the people would receive any amend, very effectual one.

ment in the present system with the Mr. Parnell observed that such bills greatest gratitude, and be encouraged to would nst prevent delinquencies. The hope that, sooner or later, all their grieve only effectual way to that would be by ances and complaints would be duly ataddress to the House, praying for the re- tended to. moval of those who had failed in their I beg leave, before I explain the nature

2 U

VOL. XVI.

of my motion, to call to the recollection That this is not an exaggerated stateof the House the proceedings that have ment, will appear by the following realready taken place on this subject. In turns of the relative proportion of Catho1807, several Irish counties held meetings, lics to Protestants, which are to be found and, by their unanimous resolutions de- in works of established authority. In the clared the expediency and necessity of a province of Ulster, where the Protestants commutation of tythes. In the next year are more numerous than in any other part Mr. Perceval informed the House, that of Ireland, the Catholics are more numethe subject was under the consideration of rous than the Protestants, and of the his Majesty's ministers, and that he in. Protestants there are two dissenters to tended to propose a specific measure in one of the established church. In the the subsequent session. When that ar- provinces of Munster and Connaught, rived, the right hon. gent. discovered that ihe Catholics are to the Protestants it was impracticable to arrange any plan as 15 to ] : in the province of Leinster, as of amendment; I therefore proposed to the 5 to 2. This statement of the general House that plan which he had had originally average of the four provinces, is fully in contemplation, but my motion was ne- borne out by the actual enumerations gatived. Feeling that the grievance com- which have been made in smaller districts. plained of, still exists, and it being ad- In the diocese of Tuam, the Catholics are mitted by every one that there exists also to the Protestants as 60 to 1; in the paa necessity of doing something, and be- rish of Tullow, which is the most Proteslieving that there is no such difficulty be- tant parish in the diocese of Leighlin and longing to the subject as that which the Ferns, as 6 to 1; in the parish of St. Mulright hon. gent conceives, I have thought lins in the same diocese, as 4,000 to 1; in it my duty again to call the attention of the parish of Allen, and many other pathe House to the question ; and, in order rishes, there are no Protestants; in the to ascertain whether or not any thing be county of Kilkenny, the proportion is as practicable, and if any thing be practi- 17 to 1, and in the county of Clare, as 15 cable, what plan is the best to be adopted, to l; from which it is to be inferred, that to propose to the House to appoint a select stating the Protestants of the established Committee.

church as forming one-tenth part of the The manner in which I shall endeavour population of Ireland, is by no means an to prove to the House how great a griev- exaggerated statement.* ance the tythe system of Ireland is, will be to shew, in what manner it is different

“ There are probably in this kingdom from the tythe system of England. In five papists at least to one protestant." the first place, the religion of the people Primate Boulter's Letters, Vol. 1. p. 169. of Ireland renders the provision of the

* The following statement of the popuclergy of the established church by lation of but a very limited portion of tythes, necessarily unjust and odious. of Ireland, will shew the magnitude of the the whole body, by far the greatest part

Catholic population : do not profess the established religion, and consequently have to pay, not only Diocese of Ross ... 2,292 72,205 the established clergy, but those who dis- Town of Clonmell 3,000 9,000 charge the religious services belonging to their own persuasion. According to the Abbey feal

550 best authorities on this subject, if the whole Killummin

1,100 population of Ireland is taken at five milo | Allen ... lions, four millions are Catholics; of the Kilbegnet other million, one-half are dissenters and Tarmanbory quakers; the whole, therefore, of the Kilnamanagh

no return. tythes of Ireland, go to provide the Union of Newport ... maintenance of the clergy belonging to Rathbegan only one-tenth of the population.* Bantry

112 ... 1,407 Cahiragh

6

650 *« In Ireland, the Protestants are not | Bandon

511 2,308 one fourth of the people; the numbers of the Oven

15

656 establishment, little more than an eighth.” Bally marile

12

500 State of Church of Ireland, by Richard Templemartin

68

759 bishop of Cloype, 7th Edit. p. 81, 1787. Kilmichael

12

703

Number of
Protestants.

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Pretestart
Horses,
none

Catbolic
Hotsas.

Parisbus

none

none

none

none

none

none

none

Now, Sir, when I make this statement, that I have good authority to consider I beg to be distinctly understood as hav- | them as contributing their opinion to rening no sort of intention to propose that der the opinion of all Ireland universally those who do not profess the established unanimous on the subject. religion should be relieved from support- But there is another circumstance by ing the Protestant clergy. I know that which the tythe system in Ireland is masuch a remedy cannot be adopted. But terially affected, and is made very difeven if it could, it would not be necessary

ferent in its operation from the tythe sys. for me to propose it, because those who tem in England. may have reason to complain, do not de- In Ireland it is necessary that every indisire it. The Catholics by no means re. vidual who has a family, should be a sort fuse to contribute to the support of the of a landholder. In England, indeed, the Protestant establishment; all they seek, is demand for labour is so great and so conto be relieved from a mode of paying stant, that the labouring class can depend them, which is on all sides acknowledged upon their day's wages for the means of subto be most oppressive, and to be permitted sistence; and they accordingly purchase to yield their contributions in a manner what they want in the markets. But in Jess vexatious. But when I thus men- Ireland, the want of such a demand rention the Catholics as being desirous of a ders it absolutely necessary that each perchange, I heg the House will understand, son should have a piece of land on which that not only the Catholics, but the Pro- to raise his food, or otherwise he must testants, with the Quakers and the Pres- starve; the consequence is, that every byterians of Ireland most anxiously desire one has land, and, however

poor,

is there a change. The Protestants feel Tythes fore liable to pay, and made to pay, as a great grievance, though not in the tythe. Even those who are exempt by same degree; and it is to them, if to any law, on account of their extreme and lamore than to others, that the demand now mentable poverty, from paying the king's made upon the legislature for redress, is taxes, are obliged to pay the clergy of correctly to be attributed; they having two religions. So great, in fact, is the been the most forward in promoting ap- poverty of many hundred thousand peoplications to parliament in the several ple who pay tythe, that I have no hesitacounties which have declared opinions in tation in saying, that if they existed in favour of a change. I will also add, that this country under similar circumstances the Protestant clergy of Ireland are anx- of indigence, they would be considered as ious for an alteration. I stated this to be entitled to parish assistance. The necesthe fact two years ago; and as I have sary effect of such a state of things, is never been told by a single clergyman the impossibility of tythes being collected that what I then stated was incorrect, and by the clergy themselves. They are obas I have seen no publication coming from liged to employ proctors, or to let their that borly to resist the change that has tythes to tythe fariners, in order to relieve now been so long in contemplation, I feel themselves from the labour, and to avoid

the odium of seeking their income from Ringrove

multitudes of paupers. That under such 1,100

circumstances as I have described, there Ardagh

280 Killarney

should be a constant resistance made to

1,600 Blarney

the demands of the clergy can be matter 27

532 Cove

51

of no surprize.—That in many instances 1,015

the Eleven parishes in

proctors and tythe farmers the

oppress Diocese of Tuam .. 85

...... '4,408

people, and that the people in return reGraignamana

venge themselves on their oppressors, are 400 the

necessary consequences of the sys

tem, and not crimes natural to those, who Arles

1,800 engage in the outrages that follow *. I Tullow

154

1,855 | will not take up the time of the House in Castle Blakeney

3

300 enumerating instances that have occurred Killyglass .....

of great cruelty and oppression ; it is noUnion of Shankill

3

do. Lusk

do. * « The usual way of proceeding in Moyglue

15

do. collecting tythes is this: the proctor, with Neuenham's View of Ireland, App. 26, 38. an assistant, views the crops in July, ang

14 ......

.......

45

Protastant
Families,

18

Catbolic
Families.

4

...... no return

torious to every one that there are such proportion as the power of the clergy was instances. But I beg to be understood, in resisted in Ireland, it was the practice to speaking of the cruelty of some of the resort to the Irish legislature for fresh Irish clergy, I by no means bring a charge powers to compel obedience and thus, of that nature against the whole body-on though tythes originally in Ireland were the contrary, ny opinion is that they do payable under statutes exactly similar to not deserve any such censure, but as a those under which tythes are collected in body are conspicuous for their liberality | England, the law of Ireland is now altotowards the people, and for a faithful dis-gether different from the law of England.* charge of their duties. If however, the In England, if the clergyman exacts more system is such as to give to one clergyman than his right, he may be compelled to the power to oppress a whole parish, this draw his tythes. But in Ireland it is enis enough to condemn it, and to shew the acted, that if above a certain number of necessity of getting rid of it; for during parishioners call upon the clergyman to a long incumbency what must the amount draw his tythes, such a proceeding shall of misery be, under such a systrm, and be considered a conspiracy, and the pare what must be the necessary result of the ties be liable to beavy penalties; in Ire. active, avaricious, and relentless oppres- land, therefore, situated as that country sion even of a single individual ?

is, the landholder is far from having the A third distinction between the system means of righting himself, which he is alof tythes in the two countries, is to be lowed to have in England. found in the laws for collecting them. In In England the tythe on flax is limited

by law to 5s. per acre. No such regulaagain before or after they are cat. He tion exists in Ireland. In the north, innotes the crop and value in his field-book. deed, of Ireland, it is limited by a modus Fle generally estimates by the acre, but to 6d. per acre; but in other parts of the sometimes by the barrel; he usually at country it is made subject to a very heavy the second view makes a bargain for the tythe. Why should not a similar limitatythe with the occupier on the spot; re- tion be extended to the rest of Ireland ? ducing the charge to a certain degree, and The extent of its linen trade in the north the farmer passes his note for it. If no shews how beneficial any measure would bargain be made, the proctor makes a re- be, that went to take off a restriction from turn to the clergyman agreeable to bis the growth of the material of it in other tield-book. The payments are generally paris. It might greatly contribute to the tardy; the tythe frequently is not paid for extension of that trade througla the south near a year and a half. Debtors for 40s. and west of Ireland, and thus afford a new are summoned before two magistrales, source of improvement to Ireland, and of who hear the proctors proofs, and give a wealth and strength to the British empire. decree accordingly. Debtors above that If, therefore, the labours of such a comsum, and under 101. are proceeded against mittee as I propose to have appointed, at the quarter sessions. For sums above were even to terminate in a measure for 101. citations are served to appear at the assimilating the laws, I should feel that a bishop's court. If the proctor chooses to considerable advantage was gained; a oppress a poor man, he may cite him for heavy restraint upon ihe staple manufaca few shillings. There are few acts of the ture of Ireland would be, in a great mea. proctor deemed illegal in the ecclesiastical sure, done away, and, instead of a code, courts. He is the favoured person, who the principle of which is to give uncon. replenishes their coffers. The only re- trouled power to the clergy, there would medy which landholders have against any arise a system founded more on the true new and extraordinary demand is faction, principle of legislation, that of affording intimidation, or flight. The proctors and redress against the encroachments and tythe farmers always have it in their power abuse of power. to ruin a poor man, first by giving him long credit, and then by suing him for * The English statutes' are 32 H. 8, c. principal, interest, and costs, in the bi- 27. 2 and 3 Ed. 6, c. 16. 7 and 8 Wm. shop's court. The consequence is, that 3, c. 6. 3. Anne, c. 16. -The Irish stathe proctor, and the proctor's family and tutes which correspond with these are, friends, rule with despotic sway in the 33 H. 8, c. 12. 3 G. 3, c. 25. 11 and 12 parish.” Speech of Mr. Parnell, May 19, G: 3, 0. 19. ] G. 2, c. 12.-The 29 G. 1809, See vol. 14 of this Work, 631. 2, c. 12. 1 G. 3, c. 17, and 27 G. 3, c.

15, are statutes peculiar to Ireland.

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