they may be at liberty to present a pet?tion to the House, praying that they will be pleased to take the matters aforesaid into their consideration, and to grant to the petitioners such relief in the premises as their case may require, and as to the House shall seem meet." Ordered, "That the said Petition be referred to the Select Committee, appointed to enquire into the present state of the affairs of the East India Company; and that they do examine the matter thereof, and report the same as it shall appear to them, to the House." To the right honourable Charles Abbot, the subscribers to be repaid at any time by bills of exchange upon the court of directors in England, these drafts which have now come upon them could not have been prevented. 2d. By the anexpected calamities that have befallen the shipping of the petitioners in the two last years, whereby they have experienced a loss in the prime cost of merchandize, advances on account of freight and the value of a ship belonging to themselves, to the extent of 1,048,0777., the causes of these losses shewing them to be not imputable to any want of care in the petitioners, are to be explained at length [SIR FRANCIS BURDETT'S NOTICE TO to the Committee of the House sitting upon THE SPEAKER.] The Speaker acquainted Indian affairs. And that, from a pros- the House, that he had received a paper pective estimate of the pecuniary transac- signed "Francis Burdett," the contents tions of the petitioners from the 1st of of which related to his being apprehended March 1810 to the 1st of March 1811, it and committed to the Tower of London; appears that their unavoidable disburse--and the said paper was thereupon, by ments will exceed the probable amount of direction of the House, read by Mr. their receipts by the sum of 2,038,9481., Speaker, and is as followeth : which sum it would be highly disadvantageous to the petitioners at the present period to raise by increasing their capital stock, as they are by law authorized to do; and that their commercial resources never could, in the most flourishing times, be commensurate to the discharge of large portions of the Indian debt contracted in the administration of the British empire in the east, and now amounting to thirty millions sterling; and that, in this time especially of restriction upon commerce, the commercial resources of the petitioners cannot but be incompetent to provide for such unexpected and excessive contingencies; and that the accounts made up by the petitioners to the 1st of March last shew that the property and effects of the petitioners in England, and afloat outward, then exceeded the amount of the debts of the petitioners in England, including the heavy and unusual drafts from India before mentioned, by the sum of 4,842,1451. which sum,the petitioners trust, will afford sufficient security for the repayment of any advance the House may think proper to vote for their relief; and that, owing to the multiplicity of accounts necessary to be made out before the petitioners could procure an estimate of their probable receipts and payments between the 1st of March 1810 and the 1st of March 1811, the petitioners were unable to be prepared with a petition submitting their case to the consideration of the House by the day limited for receiving petitions for private bills; and therefore praying, that 6 'Sir; You having, on or about the 9th 'day of April instant, as Speaker of the 'House of Commons, forcibly broke and entered the dwelling house of me, the undersigned sir Francis Burdett, situate in Piccadilly, in the parish of Saint James, Westminster, in the County of Middlesex, and having also, on the said 9th day of April, caused me to be apprehended and unlawfully committed to a certain prison called his Majesty's Tower of London, and to be there imprisoned and as yet kept and detained in prison there, without any reasonable or probable cause whatsoever; I do therefore, according to the form of the statute in such case made and provided, hereby give you notice that I shall, at or soon after the expiration of one calender month from the time of your being 'served with this notice, cause a bill to be filed against you in his Majesty's Court ' of King's Bench at Westminster, and a 'writ of summons to be thereupon sued out of his Majesty's said Court of King's Bench at Westminster, against you, at my suit, for the said trespass and false imprisonment, and shall proceed against you thereupon according to law. Dated this 12th day of April 1810; Yours, &c. FRANCIS BURDETT.' (Endorsed) John Ellis, of Gray's Inn Square, in the County of Middlesex, attorney for the within named sir Francis 'Burdett.' 8 The Speaker said it was at the option of the House whether the Letter should be entered on the Journals. Mr. Ponsonby thought that the Letter ought to be upon the Journals. Mr. Whitbread was of the same opinion. The Letter contained nothing that could make it unfit to be received; and it might be the ground of great questions hereafter to be tried. The Letter was then ordered to be inserted on the Journals. [SECURITIES BILL.] Mr. A. Cooper moved for leave to bring in a bill to regulate the taking of securities in all offices, where securities ought to be taken, and to avoid the grant of offices, if the securities were not given within a certain time. He supposed the House would have no objection to the bringing in of the bill. Mr. Horner said, that it was not enough to say that he supposed the House would have no objection to the measure. Something more was required to shew the necessity for a new law. Such laws for the most part were nugatory. To avoid the grant of an office, when the same persons who granted had the power of reappointment, would amount to nothing. The man would be told, that it was very foolish in him to have neglected to give his securities, and after this slight reprimand he would be again appointed. The public might lose considerably in the meantime. This was nothing more than abrogating the power of the Commons to punish delinquents of this sort, with the additional evil of accumulating useless statutes. The Chancellor of the Exchequer replied, that with all the ingenuity of the hon. gent.-and few men could possess more he could not prove that this bill would be nugatory. It appeared that persons in office had continued a long time without entering into securities. This bill would at least save the greater part of the time. As to avoiding the office, it was true the person neglecting to enter into the securities might be reappointed; but by the avoidance of the previous grant, he would be obliged to refund all the salary he had received. If the bill should have no operation but this, he thought it would be a very effectual one. Mr. Parnell observed that such bills would not prevent delinquencies. The only effectual way to that would be by address to the House, praying for the removal of those who had failed in their VOL. XVI. duty. If no one else should do it, he would himself propose an address to that eflect. Sir Newport, as an instance how nugatory such regulations were, adverted to the case of Mr. Villiers, who had been reappointed in 1803, two offices being then consolidated into one, with a special provision that he should enter into a bond of security, which he never did. In the very office now to be regulated, Mr. Hunt had broke through a statute. So nugatory was it to legislate in many of these matters. The true way to prevent such evils in future, was to punish defaulters for the past. These delinquencies would perpetually take place until the House compelled the ministers to punish public defaulters, and to be answerable for losses incurred through their negligence. Acts were of no use when those who were the law makers were the law breakers, and he should have a pretty strong case of that kind to state on Monday. Leave was then given to bring in the bill. [TYTHES IN IRELAND.] Mr. Parnell de sired that the Petitions presented to the House in 1808 might be entered by the clerk as read, and spoke nearly as follows: Sir; In rising to make a motion which has for its object the improvement of the condition of the people of Ireland, and to conciliate their affections to the connexion subsisting between these countries, I feel that I have a strong claim upon the attention of the House. But when I reflect upon the new obstacle that has arisen in the way of carrying the great question of emancipation, I feel that this claim is peculiarly strong, because it has become the duty of this House to take every practicable method of counteracting the effects of the disappointment and despair which this obstacle has occasioned. The House could do nothing that would so much contribute to an end so desirable, as by acceding to the motion I shall conclude with, and shewing the people of Ireland that the subject of Tythes will be fully investigated; for though this may be a subject greatly inferior in importance to the emancipation of the Catholic body, still the people would receive any amend, ment in the present system with the greatest gratitude, and be encouraged to hope that, sooner or later, all their griev ances and complaints would be duly at of my motion, to call to the recollection of the House the proceedings that have already taken place on this subject. In 1807, several Irish counties held meetings, and, by their unanimous resolutions declared the expediency and necessity of a commutation of tythes. In the next year Mr. Perceval informed the House, that the subject was under the consideration of his Majesty's ministers, and that he intended to propose a specific measure in the subsequent session. When that arrived, the right hon. gent, discovered that it was impracticable to arrange any plan of amendment; I therefore proposed to the House that plan which he had had originally in contemplation, but my motion was negatived. Feeling that the grievance complained of, still exists, and it being admitted by every one that there exists also a necessity of doing something, and believing that there is no such difficulty belonging to the subject as that which the right hon. gent. conceives, I have thought it my duty again to call the attention of the House to the question; and, in order to ascertain whether or not any thing be practicable, and if any thing be practicable, what plan is the best to be adopted, to propose to the House to appoint a select Committee. The manner in which I shall endeavour to prove to the House how great a grievance the tythe system of Ireland is, will be to shew, in what manner it is different from the tythe system of England. In the first place, the religion of the people of Ireland renders the provision of the clergy of the established church by tythes, necessarily unjust and odious. Of the whole body, by far the greatest part do not profess the established religion, and consequently have to pay, not only the established clergy, but those who discharge the religious services belonging to their own persuasion. According to the best authorities on this subject, if the whole population of Ireland is taken at five millions, four millions are Catholics; of the other million, one-half are dissenters and quakers; the whole, therefore, of the tythes of Ireland, go to provide the maintenance of the clergy belonging to only one-tenth of the population." * "In Ireland, the Protestants are not one fourth of the people; the numbers of the establishment, little more than an eighth." State of Church of Ireland, by Richard bishop of Cloyne, 7th Edit. p. 81, 1787. That this is not an exaggerated statement, will appear by the following returns of the relative proportion of Catholics to Protestants, which are to be found in works of established authority. In the province of Ulster, where the Protestants are more numerous than in any other part of Ireland, the Catholics are more numerous than the Protestants, and of the Protestants there are two dissenters to one of the established church. In the provinces of Munster and Connaught, the Catholics are to the Protestants as 15 to 1: in the province of Leinster, as 5 to 2. This statement of the general average of the four provinces, is fully borne out by the actual enumerations which have been made in smaller districts. In the diocese of Tuam, the Catholics are to the Protestants as 60 to 1; in the parish of Tullow, which is the most Protestant parish in the diocese of Leighlin and Ferns, as 6 to 1; in the parish of St. Mullins in the same diocese, as 4,000 to 1; in the parish of Allen, and many other parishes, there are no Protestants; in the county of Kilkenny, the proportion is as 17 to 1, and in the county of Clare, as 15 to 1; from which it is to be inferred, that stating the Protestants of the established church as forming one-tenth part of the population of Ireland, is by no means an exaggerated statement.* "There are probably in this kingdom five papists at least to one protestant.' Primate Boulter's Letters, Vol. 1. p. 169. *The following statement of the population of but a very limited portion of Ireland, will shew the magnitude of the Catholic population: Number of Protestants. 2,292 Number of 72,205 9,000 Catbulic 550 1,100 no return. none ... Now, Sir, when I make this statement, I beg to be distinctly understood as having no sort of intention to propose that those who do not profess the established religion should be relieved from supporting the Protestant clergy. I know that such a remedy cannot be adopted. But even if it could, it would not be necessary for me to propose it, because those who may have reason to complain, do not desire it. The Catholics by no means re fuse to contribute to the support of the Protestant establishment; all they seek, is to be relieved from a mode of paying them, which is on all sides acknowledged to be most oppressive, and to be permitted to yield their contributions in a manner less vexatious. But when I thus mention the Catholics as being desirous of a change, I beg the House will understand, that not only the Catholics, but the Protestants, with the Quakers and the Presbyterians of Ireland most anxiously desire a change. The Protestants feel Tythes as a great grievance, though not in the same degree; and it is to them, if to any more than to others, that the demand now made upon the legislature for redress, is correctly to be attributed; they having been the most forward in promoting applications to parliament in the several counties which have declared opinions in favour of a change. I will also add, that the Protestant clergy of Ireland are anxious for an alteration. I stated this to be the fact two years ago; and as I have never been told by a single clergyman that what I then stated was incorrect, and as I have seen no publication coming from that body to resist the change that has now been so long in contemplation, I feel Ringrove that I have good authority to consider them as contributing their opinion to render the opinion of all Ireland universally unanimous on the subject. But there is another circumstance by which the tythe system in Ireland is materially affected, and is made very different in its operation from the ty the system in England. peo In Ireland it is necessary that every individual who has a family, should be a sort of a landholder. In England, indeed, the demand for labour is so great and so constant, that the labouring class can depend upon their day's wages for the means of sub-` sistence; and they accordingly purchase what they want in the markets. But in Ireland, the want of such a demand renders it absolutely necessary that each person should have a piece of land on which to raise his food, or otherwise he must starve; the consequence is, that every one has land, and, however poor is therefore liable to pay, and made to pay, tythe. Even those who are exempt by law, on account of their extreme and lamentable poverty, from paying the king's taxes, are obliged to pay the clergy of two religions. So great, in fact, is the poverty of many hundred thousand ple who pay tythe, that I have no hesitatation in saying, that if they existed in this country under similar circumstances of indigence, they would be considered as entitled to parish assistance. The necessary effect of such a state of things, is the impossibility of tythes being collected by the clergy themselves. They are obliged to employ proctors, or to let their tythes to tythe farmers, in order to relieve themselves from the labour, and to avoid the odium of seeking their income from multitudes of paupers. That under such circumstances as I have described, there should be a constant resistance made to the demands of the clergy can be matter of no surprize. That in many instances the proctors and tythe farmers oppress the people, and that the people in return rethemselves on their oppressors, are the necessary consequences of the system, and not crimes natural to those, who 1,800 engage in the outrages that follow *. I 1,855 will not take up the time of the House in 300 enumerating instances that have occurred of great cruelty and oppression; it is no 14 ...... 1,100 4 Killarney 45 532 1,015 4,408 400 Catbolic ...... no return 154 3 4 Union of Shankill 3 do. venge «The usual way of proceeding in collecting tythes is this: the proctor, with an assistant, views the crops in July, and proportion as the power of the clergy was resisted in Ireland, it was the practice to resort to the Irish legislature for fresh powers to compel obedience and thus, though tythes originally in Ireland were payable under statutes exactly similar to those under which tythes are collected in England, the law of Ireland is now alto torious to every one that there are such instances. But I beg to be understood, in speaking of the cruelty of some of the Irish clergy, I by no means bring a charge of that nature against the whole body-on the contrary, my opinion is that they do not deserve any such censure, but as a body are conspicuous for their liberality towards the people, and for a faithful dis-gether different from the law of England.* charge of their duties. If however, the system is such as to give to one clergyman the power to oppress a whole parish, this is enough to condemn it, and to shew the necessity of getting rid of it; for during a long incumbency what must the amount of misery be, under such a system, and what must be the necessary result of the active, avaricious, and relentless oppression even of a single individual? A third distinction between the system of tythes in the two countries, is to be found in the laws for collecting them. In again before or after they are cut. He notes the crop and value in his field-book. He generally estimates by the acre, but sometimes by the barrel; he usually at the second view makes a bargain for the tythe with the occupier on the spot; reducing the charge to a certain degree, and the farmer passes his note for it. If no bargain be made, the proctor makes a return to the clergyman agreeable to his field-book. The payments are generally tardy; the tythe frequently is not paid for near a year and a half. Debtors for 40s. are summoned before two magistrates, who hear the proctors proofs, and give a decree accordingly. Debtors above thatsum, and under 10l. are proceeded against at the quarter sessions. For sums above 101. citations are served to appear at the bishop's court. If the proctor chooses to oppress a poor man, he may cite him for a few shillings. There are few acts of the proctor deemed illegal in the ecclesiastical courts. He is the favoured person, who replenishes their coffers. The only remedy which landholders have against any new and extraordinary demand is faction, intimidation, or flight. The proctors and tythe farmers always have it in their power to ruin a poor man, first by giving him long credit, and then by suing him for principal, interest, and costs, in the bishop's court. The consequence is, that the proctor, and the proctor's family and friends, rule with despotic sway in the parish." Speech of Mr. Parnell, May 19, 1609, See vol. 14 of this Work, 631. In England, if the clergyman exacts more than his right, he may be compelled to draw his tythes. But in Ireland it is enacted, that if above a certain number of parishioners call upon the clergyman to draw his tythes, such a proceeding shall be considered a conspiracy, and the parties be liable to heavy penalties; in Ireland, therefore, situated as that country is, the landholder is far from having the means of righting himself, which he is allowed to have in England. In England the tythe on flax is limited by law to 5s. per acre. No such regulation exists in Ireland. In the north, indeed, of Ireland, it is limited by a modus to 6d. per acre; but in other parts of the country it is made subject to a very heavy tythe. Why should not a similar limitation be extended to the rest of Ireland? The extent of its linen trade in the north shews how beneficial any measure would be, that went to take off a restriction from the growth of the material of it in other parts. It might greatly contribute to the extension of that trade through the south and west of Ireland, and thus afford a new source of improvement to Ireland, and of wealth and strength to the British empire. If, therefore, the labours of such a committee as I propose to have appointed, were even to terminate in a measure for assimilating the laws, I should feel that a considerable advantage was gained; a heavy restraint upon the staple manufacture of Ireland would be, in a great measure, done away, and, instead of a code, the principle of which is to give uncontrouled power to the clergy, there would arise a system founded more on the true principle of legislation, that of affording redress against the encroachments and abuse of power.. *The English statutes are 32 H. 8, c. 27. 2 and 3 Ed. 6, c. 16. 7 and 8 Wm. 3, c. 6. 3 Anne, c. 18.-The Irish statutes which correspond with these are, 33 H. 8, c. 12. 3 G. 3, c. 25. 11 and 12 G. 3, c. 19. il G. 2, c. 12.-The 29 G. 2, c. 12. 1 G. 3, c. 17, and 27 G. 3, c. 15, are statutes peculiar to Ireland. |