five. Those two precedents he thought sufficient to justify the reduction of the receipts of any public officer, which parliament might deem inordinate, and he should wish to see the principle generally applied. It did not appear to him fair, with regard to the courts of law, for instance, that those officers, in whose hands the money of suitors was deposited, should be at liberty to make use of that money, without rendering the profits accruing from such use to the real owner, the party succeeding in the suit. Some legal provision upon this subject was highly necessary, and it should be attended with other reforms, particularly as he had before stated, with respect to the disposal of officers in all the courts, both in England and Ireland; for he saw no reason why the arrangement should not, in this respect, be the same for both countries. The honourable gentleman concluded, with proposing his first Resolution, namely, "That it was the peculiar duty of that House to promote economy in the public expenditure."

The Chancellor of the Exchequer proposed an amendment by adding the words “ of all branches of his Majesty's goverment," which being read,

of our increased revenue. But the hon. mover asked how the revenue could be increased without advancing the influence of the crown? From this question he saw that the hon. gent. had not read his pamphlet. For himself he declared that when he looked at the increase that had taken place in our revenue, he was quite surprized at the very small addition of officers it produced. He believed that, with the exception of the department of the customs, this immense revenue was collected without the addition of above thirty or forty officers. As to the army or navy, with these departments he was so wholly unacquainted, that he could not speak to any influence that might be exercised in either; for he protested he had no knowledge of the disposition of above twenty commissions in both services ever since he entered into office; and he knew that Mr. Pitt was perfectly chaste on these points. He was sure that the recommendation of his deceased friend was never found to interfere with professional claims either in the army or navy. To the influence, therefore, arising out of the disposition of patronage in the army or navy, he was as little enabled to speak with certainty as the hon. gent.-With respect to the hon. Mr. Rose assured the hon. mover that gent.'s observation, that he had forgotten he had not alluded to him, when he ob- the transport office, the barrack depart. served, that the savings, which had taken ment, and the board of controul, in hiş place for the last thirty years, were never statement of influence, that observation noticed by the advocates for economy; again proved that the hon. gent, had not for he had no disposition to say any thing looked at his pamphlet; for the fact was, uncivil to the hon. gent. As to the that he had gone into detail in that pamphlet quoted by the hon. gent., he pamphlet upon each of the heads alluded had thought it proper to put his name to to; therefore when the hon. gent. should it, and was, therefore, ready to answer for take the trouble of reading that pamphlet, any thing it contained. He would not, he would have the candour to acknowledge however, presume to say, that it was free the mistake he had committed this night. from error, but he could state that there was As to the report of sir G. Cooper, he should nothing in it willingly inaccurate. With not object to the annual production of regard to that position to which the hon. such a report. On the contrary, he would gent. objected, namely, that the influence of second the hon. gent.'s motion for that the crown had not been increased of late purpose whenever he should think proper years, as some gentlemen were so loud in as- to make it. Of the violations of Mr. serting, he had heard nothing from the hon. Burke's bill, to which the hon. gent. algent. that could dispose him to alter the opi-luded, he declared himself entirely ignonion he had written. But he rather believ-rant. The hon. gent. cited a precedent ed the hon. gent. had not read the pamph-from the auditor's office for reducing the let in which that position was laid down. The increase of our public debt, and consequently of the interest, he of course admitted, but he protested that he did not know how the influence of the crown had been thereby increased. The Bank was, no doubt, under the necessity of employing some additional clerks in consequence

VOL. XVI,

receipts of a public officer, but he believed that was the only instance in which such a case had occurred without any grant of compensation to the party affected by it. That, however, was a case in which the duty of the office was performed by ine ferior clerks, and the principals never interfered, in consequence of which the C

public accounts were slurred over; but at meant sir William Burrowes, had also represent those accounts were scrutinized tired upon the passing of the same act; with a degree of precision rarely to be and it did so happen, that that gentleman found in the private concerns of the most did almost invariably vote with ministers. accurate individuals. The right hon. Now, upon this head alone of the judicial gent. concluded with assuring the hon. system in India, the expenses did not fall mover, that his pamphlet was not dis- short of one million a year; here then seminated to meet this discussion, it hav- was another new source of serious increase ing in fact, been written in the course of of patronage. Besides, there were various the autumn, and left in town for publication. favourable opportunities for the extension Mr. Creevey thought the pamphlet of the of influence in the exercise of East India right hon. gent. to be one of the greatest patronage. The president of the board delusions that he ever remembered to have of controul had, they well knew, his share been thrown in the way of the public. of patronage. That gentleman might, if The right hon. gent. had affected a la- he pleased, send out a number of young boured minuteness of detail, where he was gentlemen to India every year. He was calculating the number of the offices that not, he believed, very strictly limited as had been reduced within the given period to the number. The hon. gent. might of time; but if the right hon. gent. had smile, but he (Mr. Creevey) believed him acted fairly towards the public, he would to have a very extensive patronage of this have set against the offices abolished the sort attached to the office which he held. new-created offices which had been added He believed he had the privilege of sendwithin the same period. Upon the bar- ing out as many as he pleased. Another rack expenditure, he thought the pamph- glaring omission in the pamphlet was, Jet in question equally defective; no less that respecting the influence derived from a sum than nine millions had been added our conquered colonies, and yet it was to the burdens of the public in this de- well known, that since our conquest of partment, and would it be pretended for Ceylon, Mr. North had gone out as gomoment, that the power of disposing of so vernor of that island, at a salary of 10,000l. much additional money did not neces- a year, and that general Maitland had sarily carry along with it an increase of since succeeded him at the same salary. the influence of the crown? The pamph- Another honourable gentleman, whom he let, however, overlooking this enormous lately saw in his place (Mr. Huskisson) had addition in this single department, stated received 1,2001. a year pension out of the generally, that there are annually ex- public money. This gentleman derived pended 45,000l. to barrack masters and also considerable emolument from the their clerks. But where were the ex- situation he held as agent for the affairs of penses in carrying on military roads, and Ceylon, which was, he believed, so cirall the other public works connected with cumstanced, or under such management, this department? Were these to be de- that the hon. gent. was in a manner the frayed out of the 45,000l.? or if they auditor of his own accounts, as he acwere not, ought they not to have been set counted only to himself. Another head against the offices reduced? and if so, from which great influence was derived, was the amount of money, saved by such was that of the droits of admiralty. With reduction, worthy of comparison with the respect to this species of property, some amount of expense incurred by the new es- gentlemen had contended, as if the droits tablishments? Another point from whence were as much the private property of the the influence of the crown had derived, in King, as the estate of any gentlemen was his opinion, considerable means of extend- his own private property. Now of those ing itself, was the judicial system in India. droits partly arising out of the sale of the Pepsions, within the period mentioned in Dutch and partly of Danish prizes, and the pamphlet, had been granted for life to amounting to the sum of eight millions, judges retiring from office. They had but two millions had been as yet accountseen the effects of this. A right hon. anded for. Had the captors received their learned gent., now a member of that House, for whom he had great personal respect, had retired immediately upon the passing of that act. Another gentleman, who had been a member of that House, and who had since gone out to India, he

due share out of the produce of the Dutch prizes; or if they had not, he would be glad to know, what that consitutional person, Mr. Bowles would say to this.

Another circumstance, which might justly be an object of constitutional jea

the talents of the right hon. gent., he thought it a most unworthy production, being a narrow and most partial view of the subject it professed to treat on. With respect to one side, it was a most pitiful statement; and with respect to the other, it was altogether defective, neither more nor less than suppressing the real státe of the question by partial and entire omissions.

Mr. Rose, with some warmth said, that, he trusted the Committee would excuse him for again rising to answer another attack upon his unfortunate pamphlet. The hon. gent. who had just sat down had dealt out his abuse of that dull performance, and his censure upon the motives of the writer, in a manner that might fully justify him (Mr. Rose) in paying very little deference to the opinions of that hon. gent. That hon. gent. had said of him what he had no right to say. He had unfairly and un

lousy, was the new sort of connection that had grown up between the Bank of England and the government. Who would have dared to predict, 25 years ago, that the Bank, under the protection of government, would have withheld payment in specie, and for this protection would in their turn have become tax gatherers for the government? The East India company was, in the consideration of this influence, another just object of jealousy, with a debt abroad amounting to 32 millions-with a debt at home of many millions-borrowing what all the world knew they could never be able to repay; the charter expired, or on the eve of expiring, and they looking up to the government to renew it. He knew not how it was possible for gentlemen, directors of that company and having seats in that. House to do their duty at once to the proprietors, and to their constituents. He certainly thought the situations of such gentlemen a nice and difficult one. Again, with re-justly imputed motives to him which he spect to the head of pensions, the pam- denied to have influenced his conduct, and phlet had studiously avoided all detail. in doing so the hon. gent. had acted unIndeed, the right hon. gent. seemed to warrantably. The pamphlet alluded to know perfectly well, when it suited his was generally charged with a deficiency own purposes when to go into detail, and in detail. But he appealed to those who when to be summary. On the head of the had read the pamphlet, if this objection reduced offices, he had been elaborately was well founded. With respect to the minute in his detail, and had even gone judicial system, it was the first time he back to the comparatively remote period ever had heard, that providing for the inof queen Anne's reign, though he avowed dependence of the judges was adding to in his pamphlet that his observations the influence of the crown. With respect should be confined within a certain limited to the contracts in the barrack department, period of time. In the four and a half he knew of no influence respecting them. per cents. and the Scotch pension list, As to the charge of not going into detail there appeared to have been but two or upon pensions, he admitted, that he had three members of parliament that had not given a list of the names of the penpensions in the year 1784, but at present sioners, nor did he think it necessary to no less a number than 17, were quartered do so. As to the influence arising out of upon this fund. Another subject, upon the conquered colonies, he did not believe which the pamphlet had been silent, was that the whole consisted of above 8 or 10 that respecting the contractors. He be- offices that any man of any sort of compelieved that there were such persons mem- tence would accept. He had omitted in bers of parliament, and also that the right his pamphlet, which had been, however, hon. gent. himself believed that there censured for too nice detail in treating of were. He was at least satisfied that the the reduction of offices, to put against that right hon. gen. would not take upon him- head the various offices in the American self to say, upon his honour, that there colonies that had been lost with the loss of were not such a description of persons America. The hon. gent, had put him a among the members of that House. The question respecting the existence of sename might be concealed, and no doubt cret contractors in that House. He (Mr. was, to evade the act of parliament.-The Rose) knew of none he believed there hon. gent. then proceeded to pass an opi- was no such thing.-He would go further, nion upon the pamphlet generally, which and declare as his conscientious conviche said bore internal evidence that the tion, that there was not in that Honse one writer of it could have been influenced single individual, who directly or indirectby none but party motives. Consideringly, had any secret interest in contracts

since the time of the passing of the act of parliament. With respect to the subject of licenses, he had admitted, that he had intercourse with members of that House, respectable merchants, respecting them; but he denied solemnly, that in point of favour he ever made any difference whatever respecting the persons, who applied to him. If the hon. gent. himself, or any of his friends on the same side, had applied to him on that subject, they would have had from him as equitable a portion of attention as any other member of that House; and if he was capable of a different line of conduct, he should hold himself utterly unworthy of the situation which he held.

referred it to the consideration of other gentlemen, more capable and better informed on the subject than himself. It had received their sanction, and he therefore had not made it hastily. He had never meant to say, that the crown had the nomination of the judges in question, neither had he said that all the judges had been additional. He was aware that the Bengal judges were appointed long before Mr. Pitt's administration, but the pensions on retiring had been granted since.

Mr. Simeon, in defence of the masters in chancery, felt it necessary to state that they had no patronage whatever, and that the increase of their salaries had taken place by act of parliament one or two years before the hon. gent. had thought of bringing forward his resolutions. The hon. gent. might therefore very well have left these officers out of his statement; and his object in rising was to prevent its going forth to the public, that masters in chancery possessed any undue patronage, or received any undeserved remuneration for their laborious services; services not the less meri. torious because withdrawn from the public view.

Mr. Baring said, that the general reasoning upon the side of ministers had been, that they had not used the patronage they possessed. But that was not the question before the Committee; it was not who used, or who did not use it, but whether they should have it to use beyond a certain limit. He thought, for instance, the patronage of granting trading licences one that admitted of great abuse, and that called for serious consideration.

Mr. R. Dundas did not see why the hon. gent. should have thought it necessary to introduce the affairs of the East India Company into a discussion of that kind. He denied that the judicial system in India had had any effect in increasing the influence of the crown. The million a year included the salaries of the judges that went circuit, and of the whole police of the country in the interior; and the crown had not the appointment of the judges in India. As for the great official influence that had been imputed to him by the hon. gent. he had only to state distinctly, that whatever it might be with respect to the recommendation of persons, he had never exercised it. Lord Minto had in his possession a pledge from him (Mr. Dundas) that he never would exercise it. He had hitherto kept that pledge, and he would continue to adhere to it. As to the patronage of sending out writers, it did not extend to more than one or two every year. With respect to the parlia- The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, 'mentary scruples of the directors affecting that the hon. gent., could not but be aware the discharge of their duties here or else that the abuse of the power of granting where, the hon. gent. had only thrown licences was of such a nature as must call out an opinion, unsupported by any fact for open and speedy detection if it existor argument, and it might be met byed, and must be productive of effects, the another. One thing, however, might be observed, that there were generally as many directors on one side of the House as upon the other. The judicial system in the East Indies had not grown up since the time of Mr. Pitt. The judges of Madras and the recorder of Bombay had been since added; but these offices were the only additions to the system during that period.

Mr. Creevey re-asserted his statement with respect to the India judicial system. He had taken it from three India books that were before the Committee, and had

most fatal to the government that could be so rash as to resort to it.

Mr. Barham was of an opposite opinion. He thought it a power open to abuse, and by no means open to detection. One of two merchants might be ruined by deferring the grant of a licence which might be withheld from him who happened not to be in favour, while the other who was more fortunate, might, by an early grant, have his goods out to the earliest market. Here there might be flagrant injustice, and yet where lay the remedy?

Mr. Rose said, that it was impossible the

grant of licences could be secretly carried on, and dwelt upon the great industry of the board for granting licences, which sat six days in the week, so that a person applying on Tuesday was almost sure of having his answer on Wednesday.

The first Resolution was then put and

carried.

Mr. Martin, having given way to the amendment of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Resolution was proposed as thus amended-it being understood that Mr. Bankes proposed to introduce his amendment on the Chancellor of the Exchequer's Resolutions.

was, that the efficient and the non-efficient officers should each have salaries. Instead, then of the general words of the Resolution, he wished to bring it to this, that sinecures should be abolished after the interests of the present possessors in them were at an end. He imagined that there could hardly be a difference of opinion on this point, that people ought not to be paid by the public for doing nothing, but the question would turn upon this, whether these offices, though they could not now answer the purposes of their original institution, ought not to be retained, as necessary for the reward of merit and eminent service, and he agreed that there ought to be provided some means of rewarding greatservice beyond the daily wages received by those who had been for a length of time faithful and able servants of the public. He hoped he should be allowed to read the four Resolutions which he held in his hand as these would shew that in framing them, he had not neglected this point. It had been usual to reward such services either by a direct pension or by a sinecure office. He rather thought that it would be better to confine the reward of service altogether to direct pensions, instead of having what were direct pensions lurking under the name of offices. A great part of the mischief arose from this confusion of terms. The granting of pensions would be notorious and unequivocal, and this very notoriety would prevent their being conferred in a profuse or glaringly improper manner, but there was no such security with respect to these sinecure offices. As an illustration of this, after disclaiming the intention of saying any thing invidious, he adverted to the manner in which a great sinecure had very lately been applied. This instance, indeed, was hardly wanting, because it was in the common way of giving away sinecures. He therefore did not blame his right hon. friend on the other side (the Chancellor of the Exchequer,) as he had only done what had been customary with regard to such offices. But what rendered this instance a little re

Mr. Bankes then rose, to state his object in bringing forward the amendment he meant to submit to the Committee, was to remove the vague and general words from the Resolution, and to propose such as would at once shew in what spirit the House came to the discussion, what principles it meant to adopt with regard to the abolition or regulation of the offices to which the Resolutions referred. It was true, indeed, that it was always the duty of the House-that it was always a great and important duty, to pay the strictest attention to public economy. But the duty became more imperious at a time when the House was under the necessity every year of imposing heavy burthens on the people. It was natural that, under such circumstances, the people should inquire whether there was any opportunity for retrenchment, and expect, that if there was, that opportunity should not be neglected. The saving might possibly be small, in amount, but the principle was of the last importance. It was the duty of the House to take care that no money should be wastefully employed, and that when money was given for official duty the doty should be actually performed. The public had a right to the service for which they paid-and, therefore, when offices at first efficient, came, by a change of circumstances, to be sinecures, they ought to be abolished, so that the salaries might be available for the offices which had sprung up, instead of those that be-markable was, that there was a case of great came sinecures. It was through negligence that these offices were allowed to remain after the duties originally annexed to them had ceased. He then alluded to the large sum which was now expended for auditing the public accounts, which had become necessary in consequence of the immense increase of the public expenditure. But what he objected to most particularly

service before the House at that very moment. A message had been brought down by the minister from his Majesty, recommending the grant of a pension to lord Wellington, to which the House agreed. The bill for conferring this pension had not passed through the House, when a sinecure office fell into the hands of his right hon. friend. But instead of reward