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five. Those two precedents he thought of our increased revenue. But the hon. sufficient to justify the reduction of the mover asked how the revenue could be receipts of any public officer, which par-increased without advancing the influence liament might deem inordinate, and he of the crown? From this question he saw should wish to see the principle generally that the hon. gent. had not read his pamphapplied. It did not appear to him fair, let. For himself he declared that when with regard to the courts of law, for in- he looked at the increase that had taken stance, that those officers, in whose bands place in our revenue, he was quite surthe money of suitors was deposited, prized at the very small addition of officers should be at liberty to make use of that it produced. He believed that, with the money, without rendering the profits ac- exception of the department of the cuscruing from such use to the real owner, toms, this immense revenue was collected the party succeeding in the suit. Some without the addition of above thirty or legal provision upon this subject was forty officers. As to the army or navy, highly necessary, and it should be at with these departments he was so wholly tended with other reforms, particularly unacquainted, that he could not speak to as he had before stated, with respect to any influence that might be exercised in the disposal of officers in all the courts, either; for he protested he had no knowboth in England and Ireland ; for he saw | ledge of the disposition of above twenty no reason why the arrangement should commissions in both services ever since he not, in this respect, be the same for both entered into office; and he knew that Mr. countries. The honourable gentleman Pitt was perfectly chaste on these points. concluded, with proposing his first Reso- | He was sure that the recommendation of lution, namely, “ That it was the peculiar his deceased friend was never found to induty of that House to promote economy terfere with professional claims either in in the public expenditure."

the army or navy.

To the influence, The Chancellor of the Erchequer proposed therefore, arising out of the disposition of an amendment by adding the words “ of patronage in the army or navy, he was as all branches of his Majesty's goverment,” little enabled to speak with certainty as which being read,

the hon. gent.—With respect to the hon. Mr. Rose assured the hon. mover that gent.'s observation, that he had forgotten he had not alluded to him, when he ob- the transport office, the barrack departe served, that the savings, which had taken ment, and the board of controul, in bir place for the last thirty years, were never statement of influence, that observation noticed by the advocates for economy; again proved that the hon. gent, had not for he had no disposition to say any thing looked at his pamphlet; for the fact was, uncivil to the hon. gent. As to the that he had gone into detail in that pamphlet quoted by the hon. gent., he pamphlet upon each of the heads alluded had thought it proper to put his name to to; therefore when the hon. gent. should it, and was, therefore, ready to answer for take the trouble of reading that pamphlet, any thing it contained. He would not, he would have the candour to acknowledge however, presume to say, that it was free the mistake he had committed this night. from error, but he could state that there was As to the report of sir G. Cooper, he should nothing in it willingly inaccurate. With not object to the annual production of regard to that position to which the hon. such a report. On the contrary, he would gent. objected, namely, that the influence of second the hon. gent.'s motion for that the crown had not been increased of late purpose whenever he should think proper years, as some gentlemen were so loud in as- to make it. Of the violations of Mr. serting, he had heard nothing from the hon. Burke's bill, to which the hon. gent. al. gent. that could dispose him to alter the opi- luded, he declared himself entirely ignonion he had written. But he rather believo rant. The hon. gent. cited a precedent ed the hon. gent. had not read the pamph- from the auditor's office for reducing the let in which that position was laid down. receipts of a public officer, but he believed The increase of our public debt, and con- that was the only instance in which such sequently of the interest, he of course ad- a case had occurred without any grant of mitted, but he protested that he did not compensation to the party affected by it. know how the influence of the crown had That, however, was à case in which the been thereby increased. The Bank was, duty of the office was performed by ine no doubt, under the necessity of employ-ferior clerks, and the principals never in. ing some additional clerks in consequence terfered, in consequence of which the VOL. XVI,


public accounts were slurred over; but at meant sir William Burrowes, had also represent those accounts were scrutinized tired upon the passing of the same act; with a degree of precision rarely to be and it did so happen, that that gentleman found in the private concerns of the most did almost invariably vote with ministers. accurate individuals. The right hon. Now, upon this head alone of the judicial gent. concluded with assuring the hon. system in India, the expenses did not fall mover, that his pamphlet was not dis- short of one million a year; here then seminated to meet this discussion, it hav- was another new source of serious increase ing in fact, been written in the course of of patronage. Besides, there were various the autumn, and left in town for publication. favourable opportunities for the extension

Mr. Creedey thought the pamphlet of the of influence in the exercise of East India right hon. gent. to be one of the greatest patronage. The president of the board delusions that he ever remembered to have of controul had, they well knew, bis share been tbrown in the way of the public. of patronage. That gentleman might, if The right hon. gent. had affected a la he pleased, send out a number of young, boured minuteness of detail, where he was gentlemen to India every year. He was calculating the number of the offices that not, he believed, very strictly limited as had been reduced within the giren period to the number. The hon. gent. might'. of time; but if the right hon. gent, had smile, but he (Mr. Creevey) believed him acted fairly towards the public, he would to have a very extensive patronage of this have set against the offices abolished the sort attached to the office which he held. new-created offices which had been added He believed he had the privilege of sendwithin the same period. Upon the bar ing out as many as he pleased. Another rack expenditure, he thought the pamph- glaring omission in the pamphlet was, Jet in question equally defective; no less that respecting the influence derived from a sum than nine millions had been added our conquered colonies, and yet it was to the burdens of the public in this de- well known, that since our conquest of partment, and would it be pretended for a Ceylon, Mr. North had gone out as gomoment, that the power of disposing of so vernor of that island, at a salary of 10,0001. much additional money did not neces- a year, and that general Maitland had sarily carry along with it an increase of since succeeded him at the same salary, the influence of the crown? The pamph- Another honourable gentleman, whom he let, however, overlooking this enormous lately saw in his place (Mr. Huskisson) had addition in this single department, stated received 1,2001. a year pension out of the generally, that there are annually ex- public money. This gentleman derived

pended 45,0001, to barrack masters and also considerable emolument from the their clerks. But where were the ex. situation he held as agent for the affairs of penses in carrying on military roads, and Ceylon, which was, he believed, so cirall the other public works connected with cumstanced, or under such management, this department ? Were these to be de- that the hon. gent. was in a manner the frayed out of the 45,0001. ? or if they auditor of his own accounts, as he acwere not, ought they not to have been set counted only to himself. Another head against the offices reduced ? and if so, from which great influence was derived, was the amount of money, saved by such was that of the droits of admiralıy. With reduction, worthy of comparison with the respect to this species of property, some amount of expense incurred by the new es- gentlemen had contended, as if the droits tablishments? Another point from whence were as much the private property of the the influence of the crown had derived, in King, as the estate of any gentlemen was his opinion, considerable means of extend his own private property. Now of those ing itself, was the judicial system in India. droits partly arising out of the sale of the Pepsions, within the period mentioned in Dutch and partly of Danish prizes, and the pamphlet, had been granted for life to amounting to the sum of eight millions, judges retiring from office. They had but two millions had been as yet account. seen the effects of this. A right hon. and ed for. Had the captors received their learned gent., now a member of that due share out of the produce of the Dutch House, for whom he had great personal prizes; or if they had not, he would be respect, had retired immediately upon the glad to know, what that consitutional per. passing of tbat act.. Another gentleman, son, Mr. Bowles would say to this.who had been a member of that House, Another circumstance, which might and who had since gone out to India, he justly be an object of constitutional jea.


lousy, was the new sort of connection the talents of the right hon. gent., be that had grown up between the Bank of thought it a most unworthy production, England and the government. Who being a narrow and most partial view of would have dared to predict, 25 years ago, the subject it professed to treat on. With that the Bank, under the protection of go- respect to one side, it was a most pitiful vernment, would bave withheld payment statement; and with respect to the other, in specie, and for this protection would in it was altogether defective, neither more their turn have become tax gatherers for nor less than suppressing the real state the government ? The East India com. of the question by partial and entire pany was, in the consideration of this in. omissions. fluence, another just object of jealousy, Mr. Rose, with some warmth said, that, with a debt abroad amounting to-32 mil. he trusted the Committee would excuse lions—with a debt at home of many mil.. him for again rising to answer another at. lions-borrowing what all the world knew tack upon his unfortunate pamphlet. The they could never be able to repay; the hon. gent. who had just sat down had charter expired, or on the eve of expiring, dealt out his abuse of that dull performand they looking op 10 the government ance, and his censure upon the motives to renew it. He knew not how it pas of the writer, in a manner that might possible for gentlemen, directors of that fully justify him (Mr. Rose) in paycompany and having seats in that. House ingvery little deference to the opito do their duty at once to the proprietors, nions of that hon. gent. That hon. gent. and to their constituents. He certainly had said of him what he had thought the situations of such gentlemen right to say. He had unfairly and una nice and difficult one. Again, with re. justly imputed motives to him which he spect to the head of pensions, the pam- denied to have influenced his conduct, and phlet had studiously avoided all detail. in doing so the hon. gent. had acted unIndeed, the right hon. gent. seemed to warrantably. The pamphlet alluded to know perfectly well, when it suited his was generally charged with a deficiency own purposes when to go into detail, and in detail. But he appealed to those who when to be summary. On the head of the had read the pamphlet, if this objection *reduced offices, he had been elaborately was well founded. With respect to the minute in his detail, and had even gone judicial system, it was the first time he back to the comparatively remote period ever had 'heard, that providing for the inof queen Anne's reign, though he avowed dependence of the judges was adding to in his pamphlet ihat his observations the influence of the crown.

With respect should be confined within a certain limited to the contracts in the barrack department, period of time. In the four and a half he knew of no influence respecting them. per cents. and the Scotch pension list, As to the charge of not going into detail there appeared to have been but two or upon pensions, he admitted, that he had three members of parliament that had not given a list of the names of the pen. pensions in the year 1784, but at present sioners, nor did he think it necessary to no less a number than 17, were quartered do so. As to the influence arising out of upon this fund.

Another şubject, upon the conquered colonies, he did not believe which the pamphlet had been silent, was that the whole consisted of above 8 or 10 that respecting the contractors. He be- offices that any man of any sort of compelieved that there were such persons mem- tence would accept. He had omitied in bers of parliament, and also that the right his pamphlet, which had been, however, hon. gent. himself believed that there censured for too nice detail in treating of were. He was at least satisfied that the the reduction of offices, to put against that right hon. gen'. would not take upon him. head the various offices in the American self to say, upon his honour, that there colonies that had been lost with the loss of were not such a description of persons America. The hon. gent. had jut him a among the members of that House. The question rispecting the existence of sename might be concealed, and no doubt cret contractors in that House. He (Mr. was, to evade the act of parliament.-- The Rose) knew of none : he believed there "hon. gent. then proceeded to pass an opl- was no such thing. - He would go further, nion upon

the pamphlet generally, which and declare as his conscientious conviche said bore internal evidence that the tion, that there was not in that Honse one writer of it could have been influenced single individual, who directly or indirectby none but party motives. Considering ly, had any secret interest in contracts since the time of the passing of the act of | referred it to the consideration of other parliament. With respect to the subject gentlemen, more capable and better inof licenses, he had admitted, that he had formed on the subject than himself. It intercourse with members of that House, bail received their sanction, and he thererespectable merchants, respecting them; fore had not made it hastily. He had but he denied solemnly, that in point of never meant to say, that the crown had favour he ever made any difference what the nomination of the judges in question, ever respecting the persons, who applied neither had he said that all the judges had to him. If the hon. gent. himself, or any been additional. He was aware that the of his friends on the same side, had ap- Bengal judges were appointed long before plied to him on that subject, they would Mr. Pilt's administration, but the pensions have had from him as equitable å portion on retiring had been granted since. of attention as any other member of that Mr. Simeon, in defence of the masters House; and if he was capable of a different in chancery, felt it necessary to state line of conduct, he should hold himself that they had no patronage whatever, and utterly unworthy of the situation which that the increase of thieir salaries had he held.

taken place by. act of parliament one or Mr. R. Dundas did not see why the two years before the hon. gent.

had hon. gent. should have thought it neces- thought of bringing forward his resolusary to introduce the affairs of the East tions. The hon. gent. might therefore India Company into a discussion of that very well have left these ollicers out of kind. He denied that the judicial system his statement; and his object in rising in India had had any effect in increasing the was to prevent its going forth to the pubinfluence of the crown. The million a lic, that masters in chancery possessed year included the salaries of the judges any undue patronage, or received any that went circuit, and of the whole undeserved remuneration for their labopolice of the country in the interior; and rious services; services not the less meri. the crown had not the appointment of the torious because withdrawn from the pubinfluence that had been imputed to him "Mr. Buring said, that the general reaby the hon. gent, he had only to state soning upon the side of ministers had been, distincıly, that whatever it might be with that they had not used the patronage they respect to the recommendation of persons, possessed. But that was not the question he had never exercised it. Lord' Minto before the Committee; it was not who had in his possession a pledge from him used, or who did not use it, but whether (Mr. Dundas) that he never would exer- they should bave it to use beyond a cercise it. He had hitherto kept that pledge, tain limit. lle thought, for instance, the and he would continue to adhere to it. patronage of granting trading licences As to the patronage of sending out writers, one that admitted of great abuse, and that it did not extend to more than one or two called for serious consideration. every year. With respect to the parlia- The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, mentary scruples of the directors affecting that the hon. gent., could not but be aware the discharge of their duties here or else that the abuse of the power of granting where, the hon. gent. had only thrown licences was of such a nature as must call out an opinion, unsupported by any fact for open and speedy detection if it existor argument, and it might be met by ed, and must be productive of effects, the another. One thing, however, might be most fatal to the government that could observed, that there were generally as be so rash as to resort to it. many directors on one side of the House as Mr. Barham was of an opposite opinion. upon the other. The judicial system in He thought it a power open to abuse, and the East Indies had not grown up since the by no means open to detection. One of time of Mr. Pitt. The judges of Madras two merchants might be ruined by deferand the recorder of Bombay had been ring the grant of a licence which might since added; but these offices were the be withheld from him who happened not only additions to the system during that to be in favour, while the other who was period.

more fortunate, might, by an early grant, Mr. Creeoey re-asserted his statement have his goods out to the earliest market. with respect to the India judicial system. Here there might be flagrant injustice, He had taken it from three India books and yet where lay the remedy? that were before the Committee, and had Mr. Rose said, that it was impossible the

grant of licences could be secretly car- was, that the efficient and the non-efficient ried on, and dwelt upon the great industry officers should each have salaries. Instead, of the board for granting licences, which then of the general words of the Resolution, sat six days in the week, so that a person he wished to bring it to this, that sinecures applying on Tuesday was almost sure of should be abolished after the interests of having his answer on Wednesday. the present possessors in them were at an

The first Resolution was then put and end.-Me imagined that there could carried.

hardly be a difference of opinion on this Mr. Martin, having given way to the point, that people ought not to be paid by amendment of the Chancellor of the Ex. the public for doing nothing, but the queschequer, the Resolution was proposed as tion would turn upon this, whether these thus amended-it being understood that offices, though they could not now answer Mr. Bankes proposed to introduce his the purposes of their original institution, amendment on the Chancellor of the Ex. ought not to be retained, as necessary for chequer's Resolutions.

the reward of merit and eminent service, Mr. Bankes then rose, to state his ob. and he agreed that there ought to be project in bringing forward the amendment vided some means ofrewarding greatservice he meant to submit to the Committee, was beyond the daily wages received by those to remove the vague and general words who had been for a length of time faithfrom the Resolution, and to propose such ful and able servants of the public. He as would at once shew in what spirit the hoped he should be allowed to read the House came to the discussion, what prin- four Resolutions which he held in his hand ciples it meant to adopt with regard to the as these would shew that in framing them, abolition or regulation of the offices to he had not neglected this point. It had which the Resolutions referred. It was been usual to reward such services either true, indeed, that it was always the duty by a direct pension or by a sinecure office. of the House that it was always a great He rather thought that it would be better and important duty, to pay the strictest to confine the reward of service altogether attention to public economy. But the to direct pensions instead of having what duty became more imperious at a time were direct pensions lurking under the when the House was under the necessity name of offices. A great part of the misevery year of imposing heavy burthens chief arose from this confusion of terms. on the people. It was natural that, under The granting of pensions would be notosuch circumstances, the people should in- rious and unequivocal, and this very notoquire whether there was any opportunity riety would prevent their being conferred for retrenchment, and expect, that if there in a profuse or glaringly improper manner, was, that opportunity should not be ne- but there was no such security with reglected. The saving might possibly be spect to these sinecure offices. As an ilsmall, in amount, but the principle was of lustration of this, after disclaiming the inthe last importance. It was the duty of tention of saying any thing invidious, he the House to take care that no money adverted to the manner in which a great should be wastefully employed, and that sinecure had very lately been applied. when money was given for official duty This instance, indeed, was hardly wanting, the doty should be actually performed. because it was in the common way of The public had a right to the service for giving away sinecures. He therefore did which they paid-and, therefore, when not blame his right bon. friend on the offices at first efficient, came, by a change other side (the Chancellor of the Excheof circumstances, to be sinecures, they quer,) as he had only done what had been ought to be abolished, so that the salaries customary with regard to such offices. might be available for the offices which But what rendered this instance a little rehad sprung up, instead of those that be- markable was, that there was a case of great came sinecures. It was through negli- service before the House at that very mogence that these offices were allowed to ment. A message had been brought down remain after the duties originally annexed by the minister from his Majesty, recomto them had ceased. He then alluded to mending the grant of a pension to lord the large sum which was now expended Wellingion, to which the House agreed. for auditing the public accounts, which had The bill for conferring this pension had become necessary in consequence of the in- not passed through the House, when a mense increase of the public expenditure. sinecure office fell into the hands of his But what he objected to most particularly right hon. friend. But instead of reward

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