ing the great service of lord Wellington | however, was clear, he thought that, whatwith this sinecure, it had been given to ever might be the saving, it was important a right hon. gent. (Mr. Yorke) who had, that these offices should be abolished for he firmly believed, acted always in his the reasons which he had already stated. politics upon the fair conviction of his There was another description of offices own mind, and with whom he had some- too which required the attention of the times differed. He meant to say no- House, he meant those where the emoluthing invidious of that right hon. gent., ment was large beyond all proportion to who very probably had no prospect either the duty. It was proper that these should of this or any other office of the kind, for also be regulated, and that an allowance the line of political conduct which he had should be made in every instance proporthought it right to follow. But nobody tioned to the services performed. There could say, that he had ever done any par- was a third class of offices more numerous ticular service to the country which de- that the former-he meant the offices served this reward. He had never per- which were executed by deputy. The formed any service certainly, for which object of his Resolutions would be with reany one could have dreamt of conferring spect to them, to abolish what was sineupon him a direct pension to the amount cure, and retain what was necessary, reof the emoluments of the sinecure which ducing the emolument to that for which was now in his possession. He did not the duty was performed, with some inthink therefore, that both the mode of di- crease in many cases, no doubt, on acrect pension, and that of sinecures ought count of the increased responsibility.— to be preserved. For the pensions would The hon. gent. then read Resolutions be given for services performed, and the conformable to what he had stated, consinecures would be granted, as hitherto, cluding with this "That a select Comfrom favour. This method of granting mittee be appointed to examine to what direct pensions for services had become offices the principle he had thrown out a very great source of expence, and yet could be applied." Having read all the there had been no reduction of the sine. Resolutions, he proposed the first of them cures. There had been instances in which as an Amendment upon that which had these offices had been applied to the ne- been read from the chair. The substance cessary and commendable object of the was, "That it was expedient to abolish sireward of services, such as those which necures, except such as were connected with had been granted to lord chancellors. the personal service of his Majesty, or the But as great inconvenience and irregular-royal family--to regulate other offices, ity arose from their not being vacant at such times as they were most wanted, the act of the 39th of the king had been introduced for granting direct pensions to chancellors, by which they became a charge on the nation, independent of the burthen of these offices which were afterwards granted as matters of mere favour. These considerations had induced him to think that it would be much better to abolish these offices altogether, and to give his Majesty the power of granting pen-propositions were of the utmost importsions, to a limited amount, in lieu of the ance in themselves, and required the most offices abolished-the power of giving the serious and deliberate examination. It additional pensions always commencing was of importance to be cautious in adoptwith the fall of the sinecures. This was ing them, both on account of their effect necessary in order to prevent the crown upon the influence and interests of the from having for a time the double power; crown, and in as much as they were of a and without this caution it would not be nove! nature. He could not complain that a measure of economy, in the first. in- he was taken unprepared upon this substance, but a measure of extravagance.ject; but he doubted whether the ComWhat might be the saving on the whole by the abolition of these offices he was not at the moment prepared to state, but it had been calculated in the Report. This,

and to reduce the salaries of such as were executed by deputy to the sum for which the service was performed, with an allowance for the additional responsibility

all to be done after the present interests in these offices had expired.”

The Chancellor of the Exchequer observed, that whatever the House might think as to the propriety or impropriety of pledging itself as to the measures recommended by his hon. friend, all must agree, that the

mittee would be prepared to decide at once upon matters of this importance, with such a very short warning. Resolutions had been proposed from both sides

the

of the House last session, and a long de-ed with the advantages he expected from bate had taken place upon them. The it, whether it would serve to conciliate Resolutions had been printed; they had the people, to remove the complaints or been long in the hands of members; and satisfy the desire of the disaffected and as both sets of Resolutions were similar in discontented? It was necessary, therefore, principle, gentlemen must have been that his hon. friend should explain himpretty well aware of what they were to self distinctly on that point to the com expect. But his hon. friend had, during mittee.-Mr. Burke, to whose opinions the the whole of that period, given no hint of finance committee. had referred in its rehis intention to propose any thing of this port, had said, that changes had a tenkind; and as the propositions were of so dency rather to increase than diminish much importance in themselves, he hoped discontent; for people, he said, submitted the Committee would not allow itself to with patience to old and established pracbe surprised into their adoption. But he tices, if these practices were kept within could not agree, that the propositions if correct bounds, when they would feel a acceded to by the Committee would have new mode of bearing the same necessary any of the good effects which his hon. burthen almost intolerable. Mr. Burke, friend had anticipated, considering the too, had the subject of direct pensions and way in which he proposed to accompany sinecures under his consideration, and all them; and yet, with that accompaniment, he said was, that upon the whole he rathe Committee could not be aware what ther preferred the mode of rewarding serpractical measure his hon. friend would vices by direct pensions. So his hon. proceed to found, upon them if passed. friend said that it was the inclination of The committee, of which his hon. friend his mind, upon the whole, to prefer the had been chairman, had stated in their method of direct pensions. It would apReport, that some offices ought to be abo- pear from this, that he had not formed a lished, and others regulated; and pro- decided opinion upon the question, but posed, that some substitute should be was rather inclined to think that upon found for these offices with a view of pro- whole the mode of pension was preferable. viding means to reward public services. But this would hardly be sufficient to inIt was then clear that there must be some duce the House to adopt measures of this substitute for these offices, and that sub- importance, without having attentively stitute, his hon. friend had said, must be and maturely weighed their tendency, and commensurate with the sinecures abolished without having formed a decided opinion, (No, no)-commensurate with these of- that their adoption would answer some fices, he understood (commencing with essentially good purpose. The House the fall of the offices)-commencing with could not on such slight grounds as those the fall of the offices, was it? Well then, which had been stated by his hon. friend, if the amount of the pensions were not to assent to this change, nor could it reasonabe commensurate with the value of the bly hope that such a change would have offices, there would be a reduction of the any effect in alleviating public burthens funds, out of which great services were to or removing discontent. What did Mr. be rewarded. What was required of the Burke say on the subject? He said, that Committee by his hon. friend, then, was he would have no great objection to such this, that it should consent to abolish the a change, but that he did not think it prufunds which the crown had at present, dent to propose it. He did not like to without knowing how far any thing else take away what answered the purpose, in was to be substituted, without knowing to the hopes that some substitute might poswhat extent he would propose to grant the sibly be found. Mr. Burke then, had repower of conferring direct pensions. It fused to be the proposer of such a change, was proper to be perfectly aware whether and had said, that instead of removing his hon. friend meant to propose any di- discontent, it would rather tend to inminution in the funds for the reward of crease it. The House would therefore do services, because that might alter the ar- well to consider gravely before it gave gument completely; for if no reduction into a proposition so new in itself, and so of the fund was intended to be made, then suddenly submitted to them for their de it would be for the House to consider cision. But his hon. friend had advertwhether, the question of economy being ed to a grant of a sinecure place lately, entirely out of the case, the change pro- which he contended was a most unexcep posed by his hon. friend would be attend- tionable one, (a laugh, and hear, hear!)

that the influence of the crown, upon the whole, had not increased, compared with the great increase of the popular branch of the legislature in wealth and influence, and power in the state. That was his opinion. As to the assertion, that the influence of the crown was increased by the national debt, he believed the very reverse to be the case. He felt himself bound therefore to oppose the amendment.

Mr. Bankes explained, that he certainly thought that less than the aggregate amount of the sinecures, in direct pensions, would answer the purpose of affording adequate means to reward public services. As to the charge of having taken the House by surprize, he said that an individual member could only propose his resolutions in his place-but the House was called upon at present merely to settle the principle. The substitute, &c. would be a matter for future consideration. But he should be extremely glad if the House would allow his resolutions to be printed, that they might consider them with all the care which had been bestowed on those of his right hon. friend. He was sure his resolutions would gain by that.

that was his opinion. There was no law | attempt to cut off all these offices at one to prevent a grant of this nature being sweep was extremely dangerous. As to made to such a man as Mr. Yorke, who the influence of the crown, he still retaincertainly had been some time in his ma-ed the sentiments he had before expressed jesty's service. He thought that the office was part of the patronage of the crown, and that his majesty was at perfect liberty to confer it upon any meritorious individual he pleased. His hon. friend had said, that the place might have been given to lord Wellington. He could not, in consistency with the ideas of his hon. friend, grant the office in reversion at any rate. But if it had become vacant at the time Mr. Yorke was in office, he did not known that there could have been any objection to his possessing it. His hon. friend had said, that he had no objection to the rewarding of long and faithful civil services. What then was the period of service which his honourable friend would think necessary to form a claim to these rewards? Till some other period was fixed, he might be allowed to suppose that the three years Mr. Yorke had been in office rendered him not an improper object of his majesty's bounty. How long would it be necessary for a man to expiate the demerit of not having been in office? He would ask the gentlemen on the other side, whether they would have it thought it wrong that Mr. Fox should have got a sinecure of this kind before he had been a year in office; though he had spent a long and laborious life in opposition? Independent of party feeling, he thought that the sinecure in question had been very properly disposed of. He hoped the House would see that this was a measure of too much importance to be adopted so lightly. His hon. friend said, that the sole ground on which he brought it forward was that of economy (No! no). Yes, of economy. He had indeed said, that the measure would conciliate the people, and remove discontent; but that he understood to be only through its efficacy, for the purposes of economy. He did not understand that his hon. friend restedticularly, which were at least liable to a it at all upon the ground, that it was proper todiminish the influence of the crown; but conceived that he placed its great utility in its effects in point of economy. He perfectly agreed that every saving should be made that was consistent with the public service, that could be made without detriment to that service. But there the question arose, could this change take place without detriment to the public service? For his part, he thought that the

1

The Chancellor of the Exchequer instantly assented that time should be given to print his hon. friend's resolutions. But he thought it ought to be understood, that the subject, if postponed at present, should not be debated this week; because, if they were to sit from night to night very late, they could hardly be equal to the exertions that would be required in the debate on the Walcheren inquiry.

Mr. Whitbread considered the accusation of surprise as perfectly unfounded. Some on the same side with the right hon. gent. had brought forward motions of the same kind, the member for Sussex par

similar objection. The opposition to the abolition came with a very ill grace from him-a great reversionist, and one who had sinecures from his infancy for no service whatever. He allowed that Mr. Yorke was a very honourable private character, but he had performed no public service that deserved such an annual sum, and nobody would ever have dared to propose such a thing for him in the shape of a direct pension. It was not only the inclination

of

begged to ask, sums collected from the people, and of course the per-centage on them an additional burthen on the public? It was beyond human patience that the people should be called on to endure insults of this kind. On these grounds he was of opinion that the House should that night come to a vote, on the resolutions now proposed for their adoption.

Mr. Bankes then proposed, that the matter should be postponed till to-morrow fortnight, the committee then to sit again. The Chairman then reported progress, and obtained leave to sit again.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Tuesday, March 20.

Mr.

of his mind, but his most decided opinion, | that these sinécure offices should be abolished. As to the conferring of these places for public service, the right hon. gent. himself and Mr. Yorke were instances that this was a perfect delusion upon the public. He contended that though no great practical saving could be made, still even a sum might be saved not unworthy of attention. The reception of Mr. Yorke, by his former constituents, proved what the public thought of this grant. He went to them after vacating his seat, and they very properly refused to return him. Could the right hon. gent.. state one instance in which a great public service had been rewarded with a sinecure? It had been found necessary to create provisions for chancellors by direct [OFFICES IN REVERSION BILL.] pensions. As to the crown, these offices, Bankes rose to move for leave to bring in instead of being a source of strength, were a bill, which the House had repeatedly only sources of weakness, especially now shewn that it thought necessary, although when they had become quite disgusting. another House of Parliament seemed of a It would most certainly conciliate the very different opinion; he meant a bill people to shew that attention was paid to to prevent the grant of Places and Pensions the proper expenditure of their money. in Reversion. The bills which the House It would be less vexatious to their minds had already passed for this purpose had to pay a pound when convinced of its ne- the misfortune to fail in the House of cessity and justness, than one penny with Lords, as well as another bill, which had an idea that any part of it was to go to these originated in that House within the presinecure men. To illustrate the want of sent session. Nevertheless, he thought attention paid to economy, and the truth the mode by which the House was most of the observation of lord Melville, (at likely to carry its wishes ultimately into one time first lord of admiralty) that two- effect, was to shew that it was in earnest thirds at least of our expenditure in the by using every means it might constituarticle of stores was misapplied; he cited tionally adopt, without the appearance of the case of certain ships where stores had pertinacity, to obtain final success in a been laid in, on their sailing from the measure so necessary to public economy, river for eight weeks, but in which on their end so satisfactory, as it would be, to arrival at the Nore, other stores were public feeling. He understood, that in found to be necessary, those originally the other House of Parliament it was not put on board having been made away usual to entertain or discuss measures with. Sinecures, the hon. member con- which were considered to encroach upon tended, were but an excrescence of the the privileges of the crown, without havconstitution. At the time the salaries ing his Majesty's assent expressed by his annexed to these offices were granted, ministers to the discussion. He was not the offices were effective. It was, there- conversant with the proceedings of the fore, not so novel now to seek that they other House of Parliament, but he could should be abolished, being non-affec- find no such principle in the proceeding tive, as to ask that they should convey, of this House; and, notwithstanding that as it were, freehold rights to the sums a bill of a similar nature had been lost in use to be paid for the performance this session in the other House which had of the duty annexed to thein. It had originated there, still he thought their been stated, however, by the right hon. lordships would not be indisposed to regent. to whom he had before alluded (Mr. ceive another bill, having the same geneYorke) that the fees of the office lately ral object in view, but worded in a diffeconferred on him did not come out of the rent manner; and instead of proposing, pockets of the public, but arose from as in the former bills, to perpetuate the prosmall fees on sums going into the exche-hibition, to render it a bill of suspension quer. Were not all these, however, he of the prerogative from time to time. Hi

VOL. XVI.

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on which he meant to trouble them. Some papers would be necessary to elucidate his statement, and for these he proposed to move; the first were letters that had passed between admiral Montague and the first lord of the admiralty; those letters would shew, that at the very moment when the admiral's son was refused examination, other officers had pass

right hon. friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had himself never shown any hostility to the measure. On the contrary, he understood him to be friendly to its principle; and therefore he hoped it would not be deemed unparliamentary if he now ventured to recommend to his right hon. friend, as one of the confidential advisers of his Majesty, to endeavour to remove the obstacles to this bill in ano-ed, one of whom was immediately apther place, and to obtain, if possible, his Majesty's consent to its admission and discussion in the other House. The hon. member concluded by moving for leave to bring in the bill.