tifically was loudly called for, where gen. Congreve might superintend their exercise; this had been also supplied. These statements he conceived were a sufficient justification of the expences incurred, and he thought the conduct of lord Chatham

so systematic a manner. The buildings of which he had spoken, he contended were necessary. In making them, the board of ordnance had done their duty. If in the course of the work any extravagance could be proved, let the bolt of vengeance fall where it might, and punish the offence as

steam-engine more than they had occasion to pay for an inferior article. He had sent to Mr. Bramah that they might have the best they could be furnished with, as he thought the best would ultimately prove to be the cheapest. The laboratory had been formed when the establishment at Wool-entitled to the highest praise for acting in wich did not amount to one-third of what it now is. A considerable sum had been laid out for the improvement of it, and he hoped still more would be so expended. He wished the hon. gent. who had express ed himself as being so much shocked at the expence, to go over Woolwich Warren and look at the laboratory, carriage-it ought to be punished. He would next yard, &c. When the war broke out, on examining the ship ordnance, there were found 7000 guns which had not been re-proved. The powder being so much stronger than formerly (he meant the cylinder powder), he thought it was necessary they should be re-proved, and fortunately it was for the service that his suggestions were attended to, as nearly one-fourth of their number did not stand the shock, but burst with such violence, as materially to injure the buildings which stood near the old proving hut, and some of the fragments passing over the wharf, were near falling on the hulk. This circumstance shewed the necessity of fixing on a spot for proving the cannon at a greater distance from the buildings, though the fitting up of a new place was necessarily attended with some expence. Another very considerable expence was incurred by the building of a new academy. That this was necessary no one doubted, a contagious fever having broke out in the old one, in consequence of the crouded state of the cadets. That however, was not the cause of its being erected, lord Chatham had seen the necessity of it before, and the building was at that time in progress, when the fever breaking out appeared like an argument sent down from heaven in its favour. That building he supposed cost more than 150,000l. The barrack establishment it had been found necessary to enlarge, as there were only accommodations for 5,000 men, when 24,000 were to be provided for. Similar reasons rendered the enlarging of the hospital necessary. Our field train, consisting of 600 pieces of cannon, exceeding by six times what England ever possessed before, it was necessary to erect buildings to preserve them from the weather, which was done at a great expense. A proper place for instructing the artillery more scien

speak of the Martello Towers. They were erected at a time when much was said both in and out of that House of the dan ger of invasion. It was thought necessary to build those Towers under such circumstances. Now it was impossible for the enemy to invade us, gentlemen might decry that policy, but at that time a different sentiment prevailed throughout the country. When the expence attending their erection was spoken of, the circumstances under which they were raised ought to be remembered. They were not to be erected at leisure. If they were not erected by the following June, it was thought the enemy might come and render their labour useless. He had recommended it to lord Chatham to send for gen. Twiss on the subject, who gave it as his opinion, that it was impossible to build them but by contract. A Mr. Hobson, who had built the London docks with great ability, was named as a person fit to conduct the undertaking. Mr. Hobson, how ever, would not undertake to do them, as the uncertainty of the expence was such that he thought no man could in justice to his family enter into such a contract. It was then thought the only way left to them, was to employ workmen to be superintended by Mr. Hobson, allowing him a per centage, under the observation of gen. Twiss. Even this offer Mr. Hobson de clined accepting till he (Mr. W. Pole) called upon him as an Englishman to aid his country in her extremity. The right hon. gent. concluded by stating in detail the difficulty they had to encounter in erecting the Martello Towers.

General Tarleton said he had great rea son to find fault with the estimates, not only as being very extravagant, but at the same time most extraordinary; for while some things appeared to be wonderfully overcharged, others seemed to be

as much the contrary. The hon. gent. this country should now take place. who spoke last, had, since he left the ord-Why, then, were they called on to vote nance department, been employed as se- away so large a sum of the public money cretary to the admiralty, and in that capa- for fortifications, which must be wilful city he had stated that 70 vessels had waste, if no invasion was to be apprebeen provided for the ordnance service in hended? He objected particularly to the the Expedition to the Scheldt last summer. word " word" contingencies," which appeared If that were the case, how the whole ex- so often in every page of the estimates. pence of that Expedition could only He did not understand what was meant amount to 800,000l. was to him astonish- by the term. There were contingencies at ing. He should have thought, as he knew Quebec, and contingencies at Curaçoa, that vessels for the transport of ordnance and yet those at the one place might be stores were the most expensive of any, very different from those at the other, those vessels would of themselves have As the money had actually been expended, amounted to half that sum. He conit was easy to say how that had been demned the whole system as the most done, and in fact it ought to be fairly and absurb and extravagant he had ever heard clearly ascertained, He condemned the of. He censured our most important de-establishment at Weedenbeck, as a most pôt of stores being placed at Woolwich, extravagant one; and throughout the which was so near the sea; and thought whole he said that every article concluded that for fear the metropolis should ever be with current services' and 'contingencies.' taken by the enemy, a very great depôt The House had a right to know, and they should be formed at Nottingham, where ought to insist on knowing, what those it would be attended with many advan- lumping charges for current services' and tages. 'contingencies' were; the whole amounted to 109,000l. and before he voted such a sum he was entitled to know how it was to be expended. There were many articles of great magnitude, with contingencies' in every one, that were altogether unexplained, for which reason he should vote in favour of the motion to report progress.

Sir Mark Wood defended the crection of the Martello towers, and thought it was the duty of government to prepare for the storm before it burst on their heads.

Mr. Wardle said that these Martello towers were all constructed for the purpose of being defended by two guns, but by some strange blunder they could only

carry one.

He should not have said any thing more on the subject, but the hon. gent. had told the House, that invasion was a bugbear, and yet they were now called upon to vote a sum of 160,000l. for those towers. In one place where he had been, there was a line of coast of at least six miles totally without any defence of the kind, though the hon. gent. said the coast was studded with these towers.

Mr. Parnell was not prepared to vote for the estimates, because he thought them in many instances most extravagant. Another objection he had to doing it, was, that when he looked at the House (which was very thin indeed) he could not think that so large a sum as 4,000,000l. of the people's money should be voted away by so few of their representatives, and with so little investigation. He should therefore, move, as an amendment, that the chairman do report progress, and ask leave to sit again.

Mr. W. Smith seconded the amendment. M. Whitbread observed, that the hon. gent. (Mr. W. Pole) had said that it was morally impossible that an invasion of

4

Mr. W. Pole expressed his surprise that the hon. gent. who had just sat down, should, with all his acuteness and activity (and he thought him the most active member of that House he had ever seen), have sat so many years in it, and not have found out that in all that time, and for years before, the ordnance estimates had always been made up in the same form, and yet neither the hon. gent. hor any other had ever before on that account found fault with them. If the accounts were produced, they would be extremely volumi

.

to adjourn the further consideration of the estimates to the time proposed.

The House was ordered to be cleared for a division; but none took place, the Resolution having been agreed to.

Mr. Curwen opposed, and Sir John bright spoke in support of the Resolutions, and after some further conversation the House divided

In favour of the Resolutions
Against them

Majority

53

42

11

Leave was then given to bring in a bill in pursuance of the Resolutions.

HOUSE OF LORDS.

Friday, March 16.

pushing his observations farther on that particular point. He could not better shew the opinions held in former periods in this country, on this unconstitutional practice, than by reminding their lordSe-ships of what they would all recollect to have been the language of a Speaker of the House of Commons, in addressing the throne on the introduction and keeping up of foreign troops in England. His lordship then alluded to the well-known case of the Dutch guards, in the reign of William III, and other cases of latter occurrence. The foreign soldiers who had been within some years past brought into this kingdom, were understood, at first, to consist of emigrants and others, who were only stationed here, as on their passage, or, for other immediately pressing reasons, but, by no means, as a species of permanent establishment incorporated into, and making a part of the regular military forces of Great Britain. Their number had, notwithstanding, been very greatly augmented, from Hanover, and from other parts of Germany; and this very serious increase in their amount certainly called for some notice and examination on the part of their lordships. He also had found that they possessed certain advantages not enjoyed by the British soldier, such as a limitation of their services to particular parts of the world, the true state of which it was one object, of his motion to ascertain. The footing on which they were placed with respect to pay was another object, as he should desire to know why they should receive much superior pay than they had been used to, and why they were placed on a footing with our military establishment (the most costly in Europe) if they were bound to perform less service than our own army. His lordship concluded by moving for several papers, containing Accounts of the number of foreign troops in British pay, of the number of them employed in this country, of the nature and of the extent of the services for which they were engaged, and of the particulars of their pay and establishments, &c. &c.

[FOREIGN TROOPS ON BRITISH PAY.] Lord King rose in pursuance of his lordship's notice on the preceding night, to move for the production of various papers connected with the important subject of Foreign Troops now in this country, or in British pay. This subject was one which his lordship considered to be of great constitutional importance. It had always been so considered by the people of this country, though very recently too little notice had been taken of the practice of taking foreign troops into the British service. If, however, the same views of the constitution existed, it must still be viewed in a serious light by every thinking person. Within a very few years past the number of such troops had much in creased; and it appeared by the army returns laid before the House, that the expence of them amounted to a million sterling, a sum surely sufficient to require some consideration. His lordship meant to say nothing by way of reflection on the conduct and character of these foreign troops, but yet, however well they might have behaved, he thought that nobody would attempt to say they were equal to our own native British soldiers. Yet it could not escape the recollection of noble lords, that these persons were, almost all of them, not only foreigners, but the natural born subjects of countries now under the dominion of our enemy. He could not think that a military force of such a composition, with the temptations that might naturally be thrown in their way, were fit to be entrusted with the defence of this country, or of any of our most important military stations at home or abroad. But he should refrain at present from

VOL. XVI.

The Earl of Liverpool rose and said, that he should not trouble the House with any remarks on what had fallen from the noble lord who had just sat down, as he had no sort of objection to the production of any of the papers required by the noble lord's motions. The production of the papers was then agreed to.

B ********

[ORDNANCE ESTIMATES.] Mr. Lush-ternal defence of the country.' These ington brought up the Report of the Com- works were really too extensive, and mittee of Supply on the Ordnance Esti- ought to be limited. The system had mates. On the motion that the Resolu- been taken up he apprehended too precitions be agreed to, pitately, on the sudden alarm of invasion, Mr. Bankes rose to urge, what in prin- which in the end was found not to be justiple had been frequently enforced as well tified. But independent of their inutility, by himself as by other gentlemen on for- much unnecessary expence had been inmer occasions. The charge of the ord- curred from the hurry in which the works nance department was a branch of the were constructed in the winter and spring public expenditure which had increased seasons. By applying, therefore, the exof late more rapidly than any other part perience of the past to the regulation of of it. There was a greater expence and the future expenditure under this head, less economy or good management in this, much expence would be avoided; and than in any other of the departments. He this brought him to observe, that his chief had reason to believe, that the estimates complaint upon the whole was, that, acwere now placed upon a better footing cording to the system pursued of late than formerly; and when he considered years, the government was understood as the diminution which had taken place a government of departments, without any since last year, he was ready to give his controuling power to superintend and diright hon. friends full credit for that di- rect the whole. Of this, the speech of minution. But he was still of opinion, the hon. member opposite, on a former that a very considerable reduction might night, was an illustration. Each departyet be made in these estimates, not less, ment wished to make itself as perfect, and perhaps, than a sixth or a fifth of the to embrace as many advantages, as poswhole expenditure. It was not his inten- sible; and, in their ambition to outstrip tion to take up the time of the House by every other department, no expence was going through the different items, though considered. The language was, "don't he must observe that many questions had mind expence, care not about the pounds been put upon various heads on the last or the shillings, but make the department night, which had not been satisfactorily or perfect." perfect." When parliament, therefore, indeed at all answered. The sums voted found the government, in its different defor the increase of fortifications at Newpartments, without any efficient controul, foundland he had a particular objection it became its duty to act, not only as a to. Such modes of defence were directly watch upon the conduct of these different contrary to the principles upon which this departments, but in some instances as an country maintained its colonial posses- ally or auxiliary force, in support of what sions. He had a similar objection to the may be right in their respective arrangeexpenditure of money for a similar pur- ments. Committees of that House had pose in our West India islands. The disoften protected ministers in this way stance of these settlements rendered it against the weight of the departments of more difficult to establish efficient checks their own government. In illustration of on the application of sums voted for such his observation, he might advert to the arpurposes; and this was therefore an ex-rangement made in a former session with penditure which it most particularly behoved parliament to curtail. The defence of colonies by fortified places was disadvantageous to powers having the command at sea, as this country happily had, and could only be beneficial to a country circumstanced as France is, because it might enable such a power to hold its insular possessions by means of strong fortresses, in defiance of our superior fleets. It was his firm and conscientious opinion, that a considerable reduction might also be made with respect to draft horses and drivers, Another item, in which as it appeared to him a considerable saving might be made, was under the head of Works for the in

the Bank; an arrangement which, though beneficial for the public to a certain degree, had not been carried to the extent recommended by the Committee of Finance, of which Committee he had then been chairman. No minister, however strong in power could have carried that arrangement into effect, if not supported by the weight and authority of such a Committee. For his own part he had no doubt but very considerable reductions might be made in these estimates. As to the mode of preparing these estimates, it was his opinion that they ought to be drawn up as fully as possible, with all the sums necessary to be voted, specified

under the precise heads of service to which | tion by a repetition of what he had al

they were to be applied. In this respect he had greatly to complain of the slovenly manner in which the estimates were usually prepared, so that even in the smallest estimates the sums and the services were not always fairly represented. He admitted, however, that the estimates were in this instance better in that respect than formerly. But he was surprised not to find an estimate or provision for the expence known to be every day incurred in the building going on at the ordnance of fice. The hon. gent. then went somewhat into the detail of the items, complaining at the same time of the heavy expence incurred last year, for erecting a powder mill; and also that so large a sum as 600,000l. should have been voted last session for saltpetre, when no such sum could possibly have been necessary. He then observed, that as that House wished to give every publicity to their accounts, it would be desirable that all the items of expenditure should be distinctly stated under their proper heads. Though the estimates had been presented this year in an improved state, he was still of opinion that further improvements might and ought to be made: because whether the expenditure was to be large or small, it ought to be fairly stated. In that case they should better be able to ascertain how far the sums voted under each head fell short of, or exceeded, the services for which they might be granted. It was in that point of view that the estimates should be looked at, first by the executive government, and afterwards by that House, for the purpose of establishing an effectual controul over the lavish expenditure of the public money, which departments, when left without any such check, were but too apt to run into. By this course they would be able to see how many things, thought necessary by the departments, the public service could do without; and in the hour of danger they would be stronger, through the money saved, than they could be by the effect of an expenditure, on many occasions wanton and generally useless." No efforts therefore should be left untried to raise our revenue to our expenditure, as, until we should bring our expences down to an amount commensurate with our revenue, we could never consider the country in a state of complete security.

Mr. W. Pole began by apologising to the House for trespassing upon its atten

ready urged in the Committee of Supply on the subject of these Ordnance estimates, to which he was compelled by the statements of the hon. gent. who had just sat down. He would, however, endea vour as much as possible to abstain from doing so in what he had then to address to the House. His hon. friend (Mr. Bankes), had said that one sixth of the expences might be saved. In this account, it was clear that a million and a half had been saved; and if his hon. friend knew of any thing that could effect a saving to the amount of a sixth, he certainly ought to have pointed out in what way it could be done. The master general, and all those under him in the ordnance department, would listen to him, and feel themselves obliged by his communications. His hon. friend, however, had not condescended to point out one single item in which a saving could be made; which he thought was not fair or candid as he should have expected from his hon. friend. With respect to what had fallen from his hon. friend on the subject of the martello towers, having said so much on that head on a former night, he should content himself with now observing, that gentlemen should recollect the time when those martello towers were undertaken, and ordered to be built, was, when there was a great alarm raised as to this country being immediately invaded, and the government were looked to in a very anxious manner, to provide the best and speediest means of defence. It was not fair, therefore, to come now and say as his hon friend had done, that if government had proceeded deliberately they might have done the business much cheaper; for if ministers had at that time proceeded deliberately, there would have been a great outcry against them for being inattentive and dead to the dangers which then threatened the country. He could not agree with his hon. friend, that the ord nance department was under the controul of the first lord of the treasury. He perceived his hon. friend, by the shake of his head, disagreed with him in that position; and another hon. friend of, his near him, who was a great financier, by a similar shake of his head, signified that he also differed with him on that point; still he must, much as he respected the opinions of his hon. friends, persist in his own. He allowed, that when he had, as first clerk of the board of ordnance, made