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some were in Sicily, and some were in Ireland; and 1,500 were to be reduced. The use of the horses however was not confined to the dragging of the guns. They were necessary for the purpose of training the drivers. The battles on the continent lately, it would be recollected, had been decided chiefly by the rapid movements of artillery. The drivers too, upon occasion might be drafted into the artillery, where they proved very useful. With regard to saltpetre, it had been thought necessary to have a quantity in the country equal to seven years consumption, and hence the large sum demanded under that head; when this augmentation had been proposed by him there was but a supply for two years consumption in the country. The artillery horses could not do the business now performed by contract horses. The contract horses were employed in the works which were carried on only in summer, and it was at that season that the drivers were trained, so that the artillery horses could not be employed instead of the contract horses. The works of Dover were almost finished, and therefore there would be a reduction under that head.

Mr. Calcraft said, that 30,000 guineas was a most extravagant sum for the house purchased for the board. No individual would have given such a sum for it. The expence of it altogether was 51,000l. independent of the house for the InspectorGeneral of the engineer department. As to the work of the contract horses, he was still fully persuaded, it might be performed by the artillery horses. One set of the horses might be at work while the others were in training, and different sets might thus relieve each other alternately. He observed the enormous sum of 16,000l. for contract horses in the London district. He had not heard of any public works carrying on in that district. There might be such however, but that ought to be stated.

Mr. Smith said it seemed to be the intention of government, like rich men, to lay in a store of every thing which might by any possibility be wanted; not, like men of economy, to say to themselves, "Can we by any possibility_avoid this expence.' (Hear! hear!) But he rose chiefly from his local knowledge of Woolwich, to make some remarks on the expence and utility of the works now carrying on there; and 700,000l. he observed, was the estimate for various buildings

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carrying on in that quarter. He could positively state, so far from this being necessary, that the works there were a common jest to the whole neighbourhood. He had heard them ridiculed within the very walls of the arsenal, about which he scarcely ever rode without observing some new piece of architecture. The land which lay on the side of the Thames had been, he declared, purchased by govern. ment at a sum above ten times its value; and this purchase was not more to be condemned than was the expenditure of 20,000l. on a wharf. He had said thus much on a subject with which he was lo cally acquainted, because he knew those estimates were now (not, as formerly, confined to the House) canvassed by the country at large. He hoped every member would examine them, and express his opinion on those with which he was acquainted. He could not sit down, without again declaring, that the buildings at Woolwich were particularly objects of disgust for their inutility and extravagance.

Mr. Wardle rose, not for the purpose of canvassing each individual estimate, but of remarking on the entire mass of charge, as it stood before him. He confessed he had had some hope, that a retrenchment would have taken place, from the declaration of an hon. member opposite, last session, that there would be a saving this year of a million and a half. An ostensible diminution had now indeed taken place; but if any one took the trouble of examining the estimates carefully, he would see that it was but ostensible. The saving had been made only by using old stores, &c.; but in any new estimate, a real diminution by no means appeared. Throughout the entire list, indeed, the ut most affectation of minuteness was ob servable, even to the calculation of pounds, shillings, and pence. But he had parti cularly to condemn one head which con. stantly appeared in the ordnance esti. mates, even although it had been disapproved of, by a Resolution of the Finance Committee, so far back as 1797; he meant the head denominated" Unprovided for." A close inquiry into those estimates was now essentially necessary, particularly as any account of the application of the expenditure was to be refused hereafter. He hoped, however, that the day when the House should have a full and fair account of the expenditure of every sum voted for the public service, was not far distant. To shew the affected minuteness of the

present estimates, he had only to refer to, two items, which he had accidentally observed. The first was the estimate of the expences at Cumberland Fort, in which a penny was calculated; and the next was for a fortification at Gosport, estimated at 5,6001. and sixpence. (Hear! hear!) This was really so ludicrous, that it did not deserve a serious comment. The excuse of the hon. gent. for the enormous estimate of 6,000 artillery horses, was, that indeed they were necessary in order to train and exercise the drivers! This, surely, could be done just as effectually by 100 horses. (Hear!) Last session he had moved for an account of the contingent expences of this drivers corps; and though his motion had been agreed to, the account had not as yet been laid upon the table. He had heard they amounted to 6 or 7,000l. annually. The waggon contracts he had also expressed his disapprobation of; and it would be incredible, if the account had not been taken from the estimates of the years themselves, that the contracts for those waggon horses for four years, had amounted to 674,000l. Comparing this year with the former year, a reduction of 60,000l. did, indeed, appear in this estimate; but this was compensated for in the very next estimate, by an addition of 30,000l. He was informed, that a rumour had reached the ordnance, concerning these very horses, and that a person had been in consequence sent on an investigation, but that he never had made his report, and that there the business was allowed to end. The complaint was, that many of the horses had been taken from the public business to be employed on the farm of Mr. Welling, and sent down for inspection on the days of

muster.

In the estimates with respect to Ireland, he saw that in the contingencies of this train, those of other corps were included, although the expences of these other corps were afterwards introduced in the army estimates. In the contingencies of the Irish artillery, between the years 1808 and 1809, he observed a difference of above 7,000l. the reason of which he could by no means comprehend. There was also another circumstance which, he confessed, perplexed his calculation: it was, that there were in Ireland but 2,400 artillery men, and in England 25,000, and yet in one year the contingent expences of the artillery in Ireland amounted to half as much as the expences of the artil

lery in England. He should be glad to hear this accounted for. The number of horses, too, in Ireland, were the same as last year, and he had been informed 10,000l. was to be demanded for an increase of them; yet he saw that the estimate for forage for this year was not less than for last year, which appeared unaccountable, if the number of horses was the same. As long, however, as the head of " unprovided for" was allowed to remain in the estimates, any charge, either as to forage or any thing else, might be introduced. At Waltham Abbey the sum of 104,0531. was estimated as the expence in erecting powder mills for four years. Now he could by no means see the necessity of any such expence. The French and Germans, it was well known, used barns or any other temporary building for the manufacture of powder, and every body knew what an effectual use was made of it. He admitted, indeed, that he had heard the foreign powder was not so good as ours. In those estimates it was the custom to vote large sums under the head of different buildings; and yet a sweeping charge was made for these afterwards, as for the "defence of the country." Various charges were included under this head, which had been made before under the head of depots, fortifications, &c. &c. For four years indeed, commencing at 1807, 4,193,000l. had been voted for buildings, repairs, &c. (" Ammunition included" from the ministerial bench). No, said Mr. Wardle, for buildings and depots; and in the next four years it would be no doubt in the same proportion. As to the minuteness of the estimates, it signified very little whether they were minute or not, as any mistake might easily be obviated, so long as the head of "unprovided for" was allowed to continue. He hoped these were the last estimates, in which such head of expenditure would be allowed to be brought before the House; and he hoped also, that an account of the expenditure of every sum voted in the estimates would hereafter be produced. He was sure there could be no difficulty in the computation, as it would be much easier to give an account of how the money had been expended, than to make out an abstruse estimate in the beginning.

Mr. A. Cooper said, that the House were not to understand by the term " unprovided for," that there was to be no account given. He allowed, that with respect to land purchased in the neighbourhood of

Woolwich, the price was exorbitant, but Waltham Abbey, as he passed by them it was extorted from the public necessity. once or twice every week: and he was The land was absolutely necessary for the really astonished at hearing that they cost range that was acquired for the artillery. 100,000l. for there was nothing about As to the increase which the hon. gent. them which to him appeared to require took notice of in the corps of drivers, it such an expence. He was afraid that proceeded from a mistake in the estimate there was, in no instance, a sufficient of last year when the number was stated check on the expenditure of the public at 5,000, whereas it was really 5,600. money; and that the public generally The expence, however, had not been in- paid 10, 20, or even 30 per cent. more creased except in giving increased allow- than individuals, for the same work. He ances. The hon. gent. appeared to him remembered, that when those works at to confound the draft horses for the artil- Waltham Abbey were going forward, he lery with the contract horses. The con- was perpetually threatened by his worktingencies of the artillery in Ireland in- men that they would leave him, and go to cluded the contingencies of the horse ar- Waltham Abbey, where they would be tillery, of the corps of engineers, and of sure to get whatever they choose to ask. all other corps connected with the ord- When government also consented to give nance. When the hon. gent. complained a sum of 12,000l. for 45 acres of ground of the expence of the powder-mills at near Woolwich, they submitted to what Waltham Abbey, he should have recol- appeared to him a most extortionate delected the period of the American war, mand. Now he could not perceive any when government powder was prover- good reason for this. They might have bially bad. Bad as it was, we were then either purchased at a fairer price other entirely dependent for a supply upon the ground nearly as eligible; or, if this partimerchants. Even at the time of lord cular piece of ground was necessary, Nelson's celebrated victory, the stock of there were means to which the public gunpowder was so small, that the ord- might have recourse to purchase it at a fair nance could have hardly issued enough for and reasonable price. An expence of another battle of the same sort, and were 12,000l. had also been incurred, in purabsolutely obliged for a time to suspend chasing the lease of a house to be fitted their issues for foreign service, in the ex- up for the secretary of the admiralty. pectation of a scarcity. This was a fact, This appeared also to be a profuse waste which it would have been dangerous to of the public money. The purchases of the public service to have been stated at wood in the four last years appeared that time; but the evil was now, in a enormous; as did also the money perpe great measure corrected. The hon. gent. tually expended for building store-houses, had spoken of the practice of the French military buildings, and quarters for officers to make powder in barns. If he would take at Woolwich. This amounted to no less the trouble to examine the works at Wal- than 422,000. in the four last years. It tham Abbey, he would find that we also appeared to him that the heads of the use, for that purpose, many buildings that ordnance had acted on no settled system, resemble barns. Under the general head but according to their own caprice, which of " the defence of the country," was in- was too much indulged. He remembered cluded the expence of building batteries that when the late duke of Richmond and martello towers along the coast. brought in his celebrated plan of fortificaAnd as to the sum voted for building and tion for all England, it was supported by repairing depots, it had lately been judged government and by so many gentlemen in necessary to have a large quantity of artil- that House, that it was only by the castlery and ammunition in depot, to guarding voice of the Speaker that the country against invasion or unforeseen contingency.

Mr. W. Smith said, that as it was impossible for gentlemen on his side of the House to have the same means of information on this subject as the gentlemen on the other, their objections must come from what appeared on the face of the estimates. It happened that he had made some observations respecting the works at

was then saved from a most enormous burden; and he belived, that if the whole expence of the martello towers had been stated to parliament at once, they would hardly have agreed to the present extension of them. He was afraid that in no department of the government was there a sufficiently strict hand kept over the expenditure, and that in every item of the expenditure there was a consideration of

gain to some individual. In one instance a man had been dismissed from an office, and yet received a pension of six or seven hundred a year, which was calculated on emoluments that were at the time not supposed to be fair. It was high time therefore that the country should now see, that the House was resolved to attend to public economy, and not merely to keep up the government by the influence which contracts and jobs procured. The person who was allowed to defraud the country in a sinall instance, would be thus prevented from giving information against persons committing great abuses. They would conceive themselves parties concerned, and a sort of esprit de corps would prevent them from detecting greater abuses. He thought, therefore, that too much publicity could not be given to every item of public expenditure, as publicity was the best remedy for abuses.

ing evil by procuring an ample supply from some other quarter? They felt it to be their duty to ascertain what the royal powder mills were capable of producing. The works at Feversham were first examined, but those were found in such a state that but little aid could be expected from them. The state of the Waltham Abbey mills was next inquired into, which were found capable of making but 10 or 11,000 barrels yearly. Now, in consequence of the arrangements made they did not produce less than 22,000 annually. To effect such a change, it had been found necessary to double the extensive works of that place. This had been done at as cheap a rate as might be, but it was physically impossible to produce so great a change without incurring a considerable expence. The buildings for that purpose though they were slight (as had been stated) were very expensive. in the first place the corning-houses were filled with mill machinery of the nicest quality, so nice, that if one of the present works at Waltham Abbey were blown up to-morrow, it would take six months, employing the best workmen that could be found, to put up the machinery of another before powder could be made. Of these buildings, at the present time, we possessed five or six at Waltham Abbey. A great improvement had been made in the drying of powder; formerly gloom stoves were made use of, in which 40 barrels of powder were dried on shelves by a most dangerous process; now an improvement having been made by General Congreve, the powder was dried by steam in perfect security. The benefits accruing to the country from this improvement were immense, but the apparatus required in consequence was very expensive. The advantages however were such, that he trust

Mr W. Pole admitted the impropriety of conniving at peculation. The man who did so could be no friend to his country. Much had been said of the expence incurred by the works at Waltham Abbey. It was but fair that the circumstances under which those expences were incurred should be taken into consideration. The annual expenditure of gunpowder was from 50 to 60,000 barrels; and at the commencement of the present war he (Mr. W. Pole), on being appointed to the Ordnance, saw with inexpressible anguish that we had not in store more than 14,000 for all the services of the country, and a considerable portion of that was not applicable to the navy. It might be proper to state to the House the quantity of powder commonly expended in a battle. In the battles of the 29th of May and the 1st of June not less than 5,000 barrels were expended. Had another action occurred at that period, the distress of the countryed they would give full satisfaction to the for gunpowder would have been extreme. Under these circumstances, the Master and the Board of Ordnance were bound to do all they could by possibility effect towards alleviating the evil. They called on the merchants, in the first place, to state what quantity of powder they could produce in a given time. They were engaged to furnish the greatest quantity they could possibly make in five years, but even this provision was insufficient. Thus situated when the country was exposed to such extreme distress, did it not become imperatively the duty of his Majesty's ministers to exert themselves to avert the threaten

Committee and to the country. Another instance in which an increase of expence had occurred was occasioned by the improvements in refining of salt-petre, which had been refined to a degree almost incredible. For this also the country was indebted to General Congreve. Great expences had however been sustained in consequence, as they had been obliged to double the establishment of the melting houses, and an additional expence had been incurred by canal works, &c., which thus became necessary. The mills also had occasioned an immense expence, and much difficulty had been found in procur

cuse for neglecting his duty. Lord Chatham had planned the improvement of the wharf which had been so successfully executed. Gentlemen opposite had no right to blame government for not laying the

ing mill-stones. Those were very expensive, and here he had to notice a great advantage derived from our Irish works, as formerly we were obliged to gain all our mill-stones from Flanders. We began to be in great distress for the want of mill-whole of the plans for the improvement of stones, when happily a (quarry was disco- Woolwich Warren before them when they vered in Ireland. This discovery how- had not been moved for. All the heavy ever was not made till those works were work of an expedition lay on the Ordbegun. One advantage arising from the nance. In the late expedition the number establishment of those works was, we were of ships they had laden with battering enabled to make powder at a less expence trains and other Ordnance stores amountthan that the merchants furnished us at, ed to seventy. He had been called on to and of a superior quality to that they sup- know how soon he could load fifteen or plied. It was of consequence to keep up a sixteen ships, when he replied, that if he rivalship between the inerchants and the did not set them off in three days after crown, and to avoid materially depressing they were sent to him, he would lose bis either the one or other. The manner of right hand. Formerly his answer would supp ying ships with powder was not so have been, that he would have sent off good as it might have been. Powder, two or three in a fortnight after they were take what care they would of it, would not sent to him, and possibly the whole in keep for any great length of time. The about six weeks. Was the increased exdamp, in a long voyage, would get to it. pedition with which such a force could be Buildings were therefore erected at Ports- sent out nothing, was it worth no additional mouth and other places for drying and expence ? At the time lord Chatham was mixing powder, so that now when ships placed at the head of the Ordnance, there came in their powder was sent to the was no covering for the carriages of vesmagazines and changed with more facility sels, now there were carriages for thirty than formerly. At the period to which he sail of the line, sheltered in wooden storehad alluded, the exigencies of the coun- houses.-They had even no place for the try were such, that he thought no time storing of timber at the breaking out of was to be lost. He would not suffer any the present war, the carriages were, in delay to arise from their not being able consequence made of green wood, which to obtain workmen through the pay being did not last half the time they would have insufficient. If men could not be procured lasted had the wood been properly seato work for their usual wages, sixpence or a soned. It was well known that if wood shilling a day ought not to be suffered to were painted before it was perfectly dry, oppose an obstacle. Whether the expence it would not do half the service it ought. were 50 or 70,000l. in the then circum- He therefore contended that, it was true stances of the country, he thought of little economy to keep a proper stock before importance when the object in view was hand. considered. He had next to speak of Woolwich. When a noble lord, whom he should ever be proud to call his dear friend (lord Chatham), and who, whatever might have been said of him, had proved himself a good servant to the country, was placed at the head of the Board of Ordnance, he found Woolwich in a state very different to what it is now in. It had not even a covering for the stores which were there deposited. He (Mr. W. Pole) had been charged with the equipment of an expedition, and the state it was in at that time was such, that not an officer went down who was not of opinion that the Ordnance would be a month behind the other parts of the armament. There was not a person in any department of the state who did not make that an ex

He was responsible for the increased expence attending a two years supply of wood in store. At the period to which he had alluded, the means of the Board of Ordnance to construct field carriages were so circumscribed, that they was forced to contract for the number they had occasion for at a great expence, while an inferior article was supplied. Contemplating this inconvenience lord Chatham had ordered a new carriage yard to be made on a large principle. This measure he contended was creditable to the country and consonant to the dictates of true economy, as the carriages were now made under the eye of an officer capable of giving a proper judgment on them, instead of their being obliged to have them from London. He had been the cause of 1,000l. being expended on a

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