had been carried on to so great an extent under the Swedish flag. As far as Sweden herself was concerned, the advantage she herself derived from that trade was certainly very little-and he had heard with extreme regret that her flag had been lent to our own traders to carry on this commerce in direct defiance of the law. He suggested that some effectual steps should be taken by the legislature and the government to suppress this gross intringement of the law by British subjects. With stated the subject. With regard to Portugal, the hon. gent. would find that every thing had been done to induce the Brazil government to concur in carrying the abolition into effect. But though no doubt Great Britain had reason to expect that the Portuguese government would pay considerable deference to its recommendation, yet it would be recollected that Great Britain had no right to dictate to that government. When the abolition had advanced so slowly in this enlightened country, with all the aid of popular feel-regard to America, he differed altogether ing, and all the weight of the two great authorities (Mr. Pitt and Mr. Fox,) who concurred in this point, though hardly on any other. When this measure had been 20 years in agitation here before it was carried, it could not reasonably be attributed to a want of zeal or humanity in the Portuguese government, which has removed to the very land of slavery, that it had not in the space of one year done any thing decisive. But he believed that when the papers should be produced, it would be found that there was an article in the treaty with the Brazil government, providing if not absolutely, at least much more effectually for the gradual abolition than the article contained in the abortive treaty with America. With regard to Spain, the Slave Trade of which had perhaps been too high.y estimated at two thirds of the amount of the Portuguese trade, the hon. gent. would find that the object had not been neglected in that quarter. But if considerable management was necessary with respect to the Portuguese government, the hon. gent. would be aware that good management was also necessary with regard to that of Spain. There was hardly time to enter into any stipulation with that government with respeet to its colonial policy. But it would be found that the most earnest recommendation had been made to the Spanish government, to take the subject into its most serious consideration. As to Swe-point was what they parúcularly objected den, it would be found that no return could be made to the address on that head-unless something had been done with that power since he had been in office. His object, he confessed, had been to obtain from the different governments a distinct abolition of the trade-and not a convention to prevent an illicit trade by trade by the subjects of this country, under their flags. He confessed he had not been aware, till lately, that the illicit trade in slaves by British subjects from the hon. gent. as to the mode of proceeding with that government, although he perfectly agreed in all the principles he had stated. The hon. gent. thought that America was anxious for the abolition. His information led him to a contrary conclusion. His belief was that the Americans had no inclination to abolish the trade effectually, and that they only wanted to take advantage of our abolition. Under that government it would be kept in mind that there was a greater slave population than under any other, and that the popular feeling would not therefore go so effectually along with its government in the abolition. The substance of the article in the abortive treaty to which he had alluded, was, that the two governments should mutually communicate to each other the steps taken to carry the abolition into effect, which was hardly dong any thing. But the hon. gent. thought he saw from the correspondence some reason to think that there would be no serious opposition on the part of the American government to an agree ment permitting the capture of their slave vessels by our cruizers; because as such vessels would be acting in oppo sition to the American law, they would have no ground of complaint to the American government. But the hon. gent. had not read the correspondence with big usual accuracy. An agreement on this to, as contrary to their sovereignty, al though at the same time they bad said that if the power of capture should be exercised, persons taken in an illicit trade could not be intitled to redress. But, in this, there was nothing like a convention; it was merely saying, that any one might kill an outlaw. If this country had legislated upon the idea of any such right of capture, the American government would certainly have complained; another consideration was, that this would be liable to abuse. The only way of proceeding would be by the admiralty, at their risk, giving directions to our cruizers, or rather privateers. But what assurance could there be, that this discretion given to privateers, would not be abused; and when vessels were found to have been improperly seized under such a system, to what perpetual complaints would it not give rise. There must also be a reciprocity in the conduct of the system, and the American privateers would be let loose; and under the pretence of seizing slaveships might be an intolerable annoyance to our whole trade. He did not say they would actually do this: but certainly the experiment would be most dangerous. Nothing could be done upon a ground like this. In all the principles and objects of the hon. gent., he most perfectly agreed. He had only risen for the purof briefly stating the principles upon which he had acted, with reference to this subject, when in office. He concluded by seconding the motion. Mr. Stephen wished that his hon. friend had not thought it necessary to preface his motion with any remarks, but had spared his observations till the production of the papers. But as the American government had been represented as unfriendly to the abolition, he was anxious to say a few words on that point. There was a great deal of slave population in America; but still there was evidence to shew, that the American government was as friendly to the abolition as it could be, in consistency with a due regard to popular feeling. To prove this Mr. Stephen mentioned, that a slave ship had been brought in by a British cruizer, and condemnation applied for in the prize court. It turned out that the ship was American property, and there was no doubt but she must be restored. Mr. Monro, the American minister, stated at that time, that the American government wished to give no protection to the claimant; but if the ship was to be restored then he claimed her for the government, on account of her carrying on a trade contrary to the law. He also instanced another case of the same kind. Among the commissioners under the treaty the majority were Americans, and consequently almost all the disputed points were carried in their favour; but when a claim was made for a slave ship it was rejected with indignation. These things went to prove the Americans were not unfriendly to the abolition. He thought that a distinction might be made between the slave trade and other branches of commerce, and an arrangement made on that particular point; but the article in the abortive treaty could never have answered any very good purpose. It ought to be kept in view, however, that at that time the slave trade had not been altogether abolished. He believed that there was a disposition in the American government to concur in this object, and he thought it but just to state that opinion. Mr. Brougham was aware, that in order to effect the object, there must be some arrangement with America, because otherwise, there could be no proceedings in the prize courts; but what he submitted was, that there appeared in the correspondence a disposition in the American government to concede so far as to afford hopes, that some arrangement might be made on this particular point. The right hon. gent. in his opinion had dealt harshly with the American government. They had given proof of their disposition to abolish the slave trade. It ought to be recollected that they had set us the example of abolition, a pretty strong proof that they were sincerely anxious for the success of the measure. And yet the right honourable gentleman had said-and so grave and serious a charge had seldom been so lightly made, that the only object of the Americans was to get possession of a part of our slave trade! He did not believe that this was the case; and if he had believed it, he would have been cautious how he stated it. He would humbly recommend to the right hon. gent., who had so lately been secretary of state for foreign affairs, and might, perhaps, be very soon called to that office again, to be cautious how he preferred so grave and serious a charge. Mr. Barham had always been of opinion, that unless the trade was abolished by other governments it would soon revive in our own colonies. It was only by treaty with other powers that the trade could be effectually abolished. Mr. Wilberforce expressed his great satisfaction that whatever little differences there might be on minor points, there was one universal concurrence in the desire to carry the object of abolition into complete effect. On that object he himself, and those who had taken a particular interest in the measure, had constantly kept their eyes fixed. He thought the right hon. gent. (Mr. Canning) had gone too far when he said that the American govern ment was unfriendly to the abolition. It had been well stated by his hon. friend (Brougham) who had out of the House done so much for the cause, and who now exercised his great talents in its favour in the House that the American government had been before us in the abolition. There was, he firmly believed, a general disposition in America to abolish this traffic-and it ought to be remembered that they had done more than ourselves on this subject; for a great many of the slaves there had been emancipated-a most favourable omen of their future exertions in the cause. He hoped the attention of the House would be fixed upon this great object, and the great benefits which it was calculated to confer on hu man nature. The motions were then agreed to HOUSE OF COMMONS. Wednesday, March 14. [ORDNANCE ESTIMATES.] The House having resolved into a Committee of supply, Mr. Ashley Cooper, without any prefaratory observations, stated to the Committee, that the total saving on the ordnance estimates for this year, amounted to nearly one million and a half;-under the head of ordinaries, there would be found to be an excess for this year, amounting to 7,000l. ;-but under the head of extraordinaries, there would be found to be a diminution of charge, amounting to 1,140,000l. ;-and under the head of unprovided, there would appear a diminution of 352,2091. ;-so that the total saving under these two heads of extraordinaries and unprovided would consist of a diminution of expence, amounting to 1,492,2097.;-and the total sum he meant now to call upon the Committee to vote for the ordnance service of the current year, for the United Kingdom. amounted to 3,819,4661. The saving under the head of extraordinaries arose from various causes. There was a reduction from the annual charge of the foreign service, of 200,000l. There was also a saving in works and repairs of 260,000l. There would be found a further saving of 60,000l. by the reduction of draught horses; and by a diminution of the number of depots, there was an additional saving of 100,000l. With respect to the estimates for the ordnance in Ireland, there would be found generally to be a saving of 123,000l. and under the head of new works, would be found a further saving of 17,000l. The hon. gent. concluded with moving. "That it is the opinion of the Committee that a sum not exceeding 3,819,4661. be granted to his Majesty towards defraying the ordnance estimates for the current year." Mr. Calcraft rose and said, he was not surprised that the hon. gent. had been so brief upon the subject; but he must request the patience of the Committee, while he deviated from the example which had been given, and went a little more into detail. He found, in looking over the papers which he held in his hand, a reduction of 100,000l. from the last year's expence, and so far as such a reduction could be proved to be real, he was willing to allow the hon. gent. due praise. This reduction had been made in the expence for saltpetre, and in those charges which were termed 'unprovided,' a phrase equivalent to extraordinaries' in the common accounts of the army. But when he looked into those parts of the statement where extravagance was most unjustifiable and unserviceable, he found the old spirit still alive, and as vigorous as ever; he found charged in 1809, 4,5861. for a house for the Secretary, in Pall-mall; he next found for a building for a similar purpose, 8,4061. which, with a non-descript charge, which he could not distinctly trace, at that time, amounted to 11,000l. The expenditure in the ordnance department in providing apartments for its officers was intolerable; summed up, it was not less than 45,000l. It might be alledged that a considerable part of this expence had been sanctioned by himself (Mr. Calcraft) and his colleagues, while in office : but the contract for the house in Pall-mall had been made before they could have any influence over it. As it was, they tried to get rid of it, to throw it off the hands of the nation, to exchange, to sell it; and, in the failure of all their efforts for this purpose, were forced to perform the contract; but improvements and embellishments were going on, which would make the cost of that onerous fabric at least 50,000l. But the expence of the establishment did not halt here: a miserable house in Pall-mall was bought up at the sporting price of 7,163, for an engineer officer; another for the inspector general was purchased at a splendid price, in that same most expensive part of the town. He must now advert to an expen found that an officer had in his service në less than nine or ten soldiers as the regular attendants in his house, as his grooms, valets, and for aught he knew, as his cooks, butlers, &c. and four horses. This per son's plea, he understood to be, the exercise of an assumed and as yet undisputed privilege; that he had been guilty only of what he had known others, and many others, to have been constantly guilty. Mr. Ashley Cooper stated, across the table, that a court of inquiry was sitting upon the case alluded to by the hon. gent., and if any officer should be found guilty of such practices he would be punished by a court martial. Mr. Calcraft resumed; if the circum. stances he had stated were true, he trusted that the court of inquiry would not rest there; but he would not detain the House any longer upon the circumstance, but proceed. The next charge which he found was a small one, it was true; but he found no cause for it, trifling as it might be thought; 650l. for ordnance expenses at Hungerford. The next objectionable item of charge, was that for building barracks at Wedenbeck; and here he must observe upon the general folly of that extravagance, which built such sumptuous apartments for men whose income could not exceed 300l. or 400l. a year, as would be fit for men of as many thousands, giving them thereby idle notions of expenditure, and leading them consequently into extravagance. He found likewise in the estimates a provision for artillery drivers, a corp of between 5 and 6,000 men, with 6,000 horses. This great and most expensive body was and could be, of no possible use in the country, except diture which it might seem invidious to touch upon, but which it was absolutely necessary to notice, he meant the pay of the superannuated men, and the pensions of widows and officers: but under this title, interesting as it must be to the feelings of the House, a large system of peculation was easily concealed; it contained all the private pensions of the ordnance, and in even the last year had increased by 6,5991. The melancholy events of the past year presented but too obvious a reason for this increase. With regard to the works in the country he found a charge for the Cinque Ports, and he requested to know if the fortifications at Dover were completed. He found in the estimates the Chatham head of expence diminished, but still the extravagance there had been enormous. He had but to instance the artillery barracks; those buildings contained about 1,000 men, with a few horses, and some sheds for carriages; yet the expence of the work had been 150,000l. Another questionable item was that of 19,000 towards the erection of an artillery hospital-he wished this item to be further explained. But there was another rather extraordinary item of 5,000/ for the construction of a powder magazine in Dorchester; it, was natural for the hon. gent. to have his partialities for Dorchester, but he (Mr. Calcraft) was at a loss to know why a powder magazine was necessary there; He wished to be informed whether it was to treasure up the military stores of the town, or to receive the spare powder of the entire district. He hoped, however, that whether or not, it would be kept at a safe distance from the town; but 5,000l. was a sum undeniably too large for so idle a purpose. He next founding, in case of an invasion, to move the under one sweeping head, for building and taking land for building on, at Woolwich, 134,000l. This charge first met the eye in the modest form of 78,6391. and was gradually inflated up to the aggregate which he stated. The minor abuses there, were of the same rank with those which he had noticed at Chatham. Officers were known to make almost a property of the horses provided for the service; and while they had them in actual employ drawing their coaches and curricles, refused to pay the tax demanded by the commissioners, on the plea that they were the king's horses. The commissioners, however, resisted such a plea, and would allow no more than a single horse for each officer. On a late inquiry, it was 4 artillery from one part of the country to another. He did not find the sum relative to them printed in the estimates. Those artillery horses were cantoned by five and six hundred together in districts on the coast; yet in these very districts the country was charged with 87,000l. for contract horses, to do the general work; while the driver's horses were idle, totally idle, fat, and sleek, and pampered till they would be unfit for even the single service to which they were designed. He knew that officers had an aversion to putting their horses to any work that sullied the glossiness of their skins, or dimmed the polish of their harness; but the expence of the corps amounted to the enormous sum of 400,000/. whilst its services were only useful at the actual actual moment of invasion; as if we could have no notice of invasion, not a moment to prepare; or, as if the species of horses employed in the artillery were not precisely of that description, of which an almost unlimited number might be got at any pressing moment in the country! Yet for this event, distant, if it should ever arrive, the country was to be saddled with an intolerable expence, a permanent and certain burthen, to meet an event barely contingent. The number of the corps employed on foreign service must be small, and there could be no ground for continuing an useless expenditure at home. The corps should be reduced, not perhaps totally; it might be advisable to leave a skeleton for an increase of the corps, if it should be necessary; but if the number of horses were 6,000, he would reduce them to 1,000. He apologized for the detail into which the subject had led him, but it was one to which too keen and patient a spirit of inquiry could not be applied; it was not becoming the economy of that honourable House, to vote away immense sums without minutely investigating the necessity of the charge, and particularly without knowing the application of former estimates. The charge for saltpetre, in which a reduction was boasted of, was 600,000l. The charge for artillery drivers' horses in Ireland was 10,000l. He did not comprehend the foundation of a charge to that extent; did it comprehend the purchase of horses in Ireland for the corps here? [He was answered in the negative across the table.] He confessed himself totally at a loss to account for a charge which seemed so superior to the necessities of the small corps stationed in. Ireland; and he must lament to find, that the spirit of economy which had given such hope of rational retrenchment was merely nominal at best; a reduction only from one degree of waste to another; from the indefensible extravagance of last year, to the almost equally culpable extravagance of the present one. Mr. A. Cooper admitted the excess of the present year's estimates over those of 1806; but that excess was imputable to the increased exigency of public affairs since that period as well as to the rise in the price of every article. With respect to the house in Pall Mall, he entered into a minute detail of the proceedings, on the part of the board of ordnance in purchasing that house, to shew, that the board had been influenced by an anxious attention VOL, XVI. to economy. Their former house had been at St. Margaret street, and from their wish to avoid expence, they had long and distinctly refused to contract with the commissioners for widening and improv ing the streets about Westminster; a peremptory notice, however, finally obliged them to give up their house; and they then called Mr. Wyatt, their architect, before them, who stated that the lowest terms on which he could build a house for them was 40,000l., and that he could not do it in a space less than two years. They had heard in the mean time, that the Union Club House was for sale, and that the proprietors were distressed for money. He (Mr. Cooper) was consequently ordered by lord Chatham to treat with the proprietors' agent, Mr. Gould, for the purchase of the House, not for the public service, but on the part of a private individual. He did so, and succeeded in getting the house at such a price, that the original proprietors' creditors were very indignant when they heard of the terms of the sale, and who were the purchasers; the sum given for the house was 30,000 guineas, including the furniture, without which the house would not be sold, and which was worth 5,000l. With respect to the house for the Secretary, when he came into of fice, he found an estimate, for a new house for the Secretary, of 6,800l. This, as having, he presumed, the sanction of lord Moira, he had acted upon, and Mr. Cooper sold his interest for 7,163. The plan of the Chatham buildings was Mr. Wyatt's; and as to the officer alluded to by the hon. gent. as having been put under arrest at Flushing, he could only say he had found that officer at all times intelligent and active. With respect, however, to the buildings of Chatham, he had reason to hope that there would be no further demand upon the public upon this head. The depôt of carriages for sea service was of wood, and this made it so liable to the danger of fire, that it was thought necessary to build another depôt. With respect to the abuse of horses, the hon. gent. had over-rated the case to which he had alluded, the officer not engrossing the use of nine soldiers and five horses, but only of two horses and but two men, but these, constantly: there might have been more occasionally, but it had been determined to prevent the continuance of this abuse for the future. Of the artillery horses, to which the hon. gent. had adverted, some had been sent to Spain and Portugal; ·B******* |