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deprecated any other, contending as he tended to be, the means of defeating his obdid, that the preservation of the finances ject altogether; and he was, therefore, was the preservation of the throne and determined not to agree to that measure. of the people ; of all the various altars of With the leave of the House he would, the nation, and of all its sacred and proud therefore, withdraw his present motion, institutions; and, in fine, of the empire and hoped he might, to avoid any loss of itself; and that those who advocated the time, be permitted to move immediately reform of the finances were the best for leave to bring in a bill to abolish in friends and truest supporters of the whole perpetuity the granting of offices in refabric ;--of the most splendid monarchy version. and system of freedom ever erected at The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, he the shrine of integrity.
had no constitutional objection to the bringMr. Whitbread, before the question should ing in of such a bill; but there was too be put, begged to say a very few words. much reason to believe, from what had He held in his hand a paper, which in. been seen by the Lords' Journals, that the formed him of the objection which caused bill would again be thrown out in that the bill sent up from that House during House. He should still object also to prothe present session to be rejected in ano- ceeding by address, and not by bill, bether House. He found that objection was cause in adopting such a course, that merely a technical one. What was the House would be assuming to itself a legisreason for rejecting the bill to the same lative power, and that, at a time, when effect that had originated in that House, they knew the other branch of the legislahe could not say.
The objection, how. ture would not agree to it. If his hon. ever, being only technical, he could see friend was determined to bring in a new no reason why another bill should not be bill, he thought the proper time for him brought in, to abolish reversions in perpe- to move his amendment to make it a bill tuity. He was sorry he was not in the of suspension for a limited time, would be House when the hon. gent. brought for when the motion should be made; and, ward the present motion, as thereby be therefore, the business could not, he was not aware of the bon. gentleman's thought, be regularly brought on to-night. reasons for preferring the course he had The Speaker said, that before he put the taken; but if the hon. gent. would shortly question for withdrawing the motion, it re-state, those reasons, in the manner might, perhaps, as some allusions had been which the courtesy of the House usually made to the technical objection raised in allowed, on such occasions, he would be another place, be necessary for him to much obliged to him.
He was sorry to
say a few words on that subject. He give the hon. gent. so much trouble, but should not mention any name as to place if he would consent to withdraw his pre- or person, because as that House did not sent motion, and bring in a bill for the suffer any reference to be made to what abolition in perpetuity, he thought he passed there, it was incumbent on them would find it the most efficacious mode of to pay the same respect to the proceedings proceeding. Those who wished for, a bill elsewhere. The bill then was, before it of suspension were the greatest enemies was sent up to the other House, subinitted to the abolition. He would not, there to his consideration in point of matter of fore, trust himself among enemies again form. He said he could have wished it to with a bill of suspension, but would rather have been an entire new bill, in which no proceed by address, if one of these two notice whatever had been taken of any inodes must be adopted.
former proceeding on the subject; but as Mr. Bankes said, that his reason for mov- the bill had been thus brought in, and ing an address was, that he thought it the had made its progress through the House, best course the House could pursue, to ob- he thought that it was perfectly regular tain the object they had in view. If, in point of form; and whatever might however, it was the opinion of the House, have been said by any other person, in or of his hon. friends near bim, that bring- any other place, upon that head, he still ing in a new bill for the abolition of re- continued of the same opinion. He was versions in perpetuity would be a better confirmed in it from the long course of, measure, it would be perfectly agreeable practice which had prevailed in the House, to him, and he should have no objection in passing perpetuating bills in the cases to withdraw his motion. He thought a of expiring laws; and so long as the House suspending bill would be, and was in continued in the same course, so long
HOUSE OF LORDS.
should he persist in maintaining the same, ing and dissemniating them (by his letter opinion.
to lord Fingal), and he had now only 10 The motion was then, with the leave of say, that whatever circumstances had since the House, withdrawn, and Mr. Bankes intervened, he not only had not altered gave notice, that he would, on Tuesday those opinions, but they had been strength next, more for leave to bring in his bill. ened and confirmed. He had maturely:
weighed those opinions. They had not been lightly taken up. Much less had he
since made any attempt to change their Thursday, March 8.
character and complexion, with a view to [The Army.) The Earl of Durnley square them to any new doctrine, or to said, it was not his intention, on this oce suit them to any new purpose.
In the casion, to occupy much of their Lordships sentiments he had invariably expressed time, bọt seeing several of his Majesty's on this most important subject, he should ministers in their places, he would put to most steadily persevere; at the same time them a question relative to a rumour ge- it was not his intention to ground any' nerally prevalent; whether it was pur- measure on the present Petition, but merely, posed to send every disposable soldier, fit to move that it do lie on their Lordships' for foreign service, out of the country? table. To this question they might return what The Petition was then read, and ordered answer they should ihink fit; they might to lie on the table. answer it in the negatire, or not at all; but he should take an opportunity, if he
HOUSE OF COMMONS. were not satisfied, to draw their Lordships' attention more directly to the subject. '
Thursday, March 8. The Earl of Liverpool observed, he was (THANKS TO Lieut. Gen. SIR STAPLETON not persuaded there was much propriety COTTON AND BRIG. GEN. ANSON.) Lieut.., in putting such a question upon the autho- gen. sir Stapleton Cotton, bart. and brig.rity of public runour. He had only to general George Anson being come to the answer that the noble lord might rest sa- House, Mr. Speaker acquainted them, tisfied that no suldier would be sent on that the House had upon the 1st of Feb. foreign service, without regard to our last resolved, That the Thanks of this
own security, which would always de House be given to them for their distin· mand the particuiar care of his Majesty's guished exertions on the 27th and 28th government.
of July last in the memorable battle of The Earl of Durnley replied, that the Talavera, which terminated in the signat answer returned by the noble earl, in- defeat of the forces of the enemy; and daced him to think, it would be necessary Mr. Speaker gave them the Thanks of the to call their Lordships' atiention to the House accordingly as followeth, viz. subject. It was a question of serious con- Lieutenant-general sir Stapleton Cotsideration for the House lo come to a de- ton, and Brigadier-general Anson. cision whether they would place blind Upon your return from the eventful confidence in those ministers who had so wars of Spain, whatever variance of opiwasted and destroyed the resources of the nion, whatever aliernation of hopes and apcountry and the numbers of our army. prehensions you may bave found to preHe should, therefore, to-morrow, express vail in this country respecting the progress his sentiments, on the ground of what had and final issue of that awful contest, necome to his knowledge upon the subject; vertheless, your distinguished conduct and he moved, “ That the Lords be sum- and services have not failed to call forth moned accordingly.”-Ordered.
one universal expression of applause and (ROMAN CATHOLIC Petition.] Lord admiration. The British cavalry has been Grenville rose to present a Petition on be- long renowned in war. Victorious in half of the Roman Catholics of the county other times over the troops of France, it and city of Waterford. His lordship feared not again to meet its former rivals, wished to take the present opportunity of flushed even as they were with the pride re-stating bis opinions upon this important of conquest, and the spoil of many nasubject. Indeed it could scarcely now. be tions. Led by your swords it again disnecessary for him to re-state them to played a strength and valour irresistible their Lordships. He had some time back in the shock of arms, and renewed its adopted the tnost public mode of declar- ancient triumphs in the hard-fought field
of Talavera. When the history of these ledgments for the very handsome and memorable days shall be read, by our latest polite manner in which you have condescendents, be assured, that your names veyed to me the sentiments of this House, will be repeated with exultation, and your and for the many very gratifying expresdeeds recounted in the list of those heroic sions with which you have accompanied achievements.—You serve not an un- the communication of this most flattering grateful country. It well knows that mi- distinction." litary fame is national power, And this Ordered, nem. con. That what has been House, ever prompt to proclaim its grati- now said by Mr. Speaker, together with tude for eminent services in war, has the Answers thereto, be printed in the therefore conferred upon you the honour Votes of this day. of its unanimous Thanks. And I do now accordingly, in the name and by the com
HOUSE OF COMMONS. mand of ihe Commons of the United Kingdom, thank you for your distinguish
Friday March 9, ed exertions on the 27th and 28th days of [ADMIRALTY Court.] Lord Cochrane July last in the memorable battle of Tala- moved for several additional papers relative To fra, which terminated in the signal de- to the proceedings in the prize courts feat of the forces of the enemy."
upon thevessel called the Two Sisters, and Upon which Lieut.-General sir Stapleton various others, and gave notice of an inCulton said,
tention to move that the subject be referred · Mr. Speaker; In endeavouring to ex- to a Committee. These papers were nepress my sense of the very high honour cessary for the eluridation of those which which has been conferred upon me, and had been produced by the gentlemen on which has been communicated to me by the other side. He repeated some of his you, Sir, in so flattering a manner, I fear former statements respecting the convoy I shall fall far short of what my feelings taken in the Baltic, and as to the injurious are upon this occasion. To receive the effects which the abuses in the court of thanks of parliament is one of the highest admiralty had upon the energy of the rewards to which a soldier can aspire; and navy, and affirmed that greater exertions believe ine, Sir, I shall ever consider it my could be made with a far less number greatest pride to have been so bonoured: of ships, and a much less expence if these This, I may venture to say, is the feeling discouragements were removed. He added of all my brother officers and soldiers who the revenues of France from her customs, had the good fortune to be commanded by that, which flourished under the present sysone of the most able and distinguished ge- teni,would by the correction of the abuses in nerals that has adorned the annals of this prize proceedings be almost destroyed, country, and who will, I trust (should an and our own revenues augmented in proopportunity offer), again prove to the portion. world that a British army is not to be beat Mr. Rose had no objection to the proby a French force of double its numbers." duction of such of the papers as were now
Brigadier-General Anson then said, in the admiralty court.
“ Mr. Speaker; That any part of my Sir John Nicholls observed, that the perprofessional conduct should have been son to whom the noble lord alluded as deemed worthy the particular notice of having derived a very large share of the this House, and of my counlry, is no less profits of the condemnation of several honourable than gratifying to my feel- vessels, had been properly rewarded in inys : Imust, however, be allowed to con- this manner, because it was by his means fess myself more indebted for this distin- that the evidence was obtained which tinguished bonour to the exertions of those caused their condemnation. He had been brave soldiers with whom I had the glory employed in neutralizing many of the of being associated, than to any particular enemy's ships, and offered, on terms, 10 merit attached to myself individually.-I secure evidence, not only of their being beg to express to this honourable House enemy's property, but also to discover the high sense I entertain of the honour several that had been neutralized by others. it has conferred upon me ; and that it He accordingly went to the continent, will ever be the pride of my life to have and very ingeniously drew the French been thought, in the slightest degree, de minister of marine into a correspondence serving of its good opinion. To you, Sir, which brought the truth to light. He I must beg to make my, warmest acknowo wished the name of that person should be kept as secret as possible. He saw no charge for the future. He would either use in calling for these papers, as the do justice to the navy on this point, or matters to which they referred were ex- prove that the complaints of the noble plained by the papers already on the table; lord were unfounded. He also paid a but he would not object to the production high compliment to the ability, industry, of them. Even if the noble lord, how- and integrity of the judge of the admiralty even, succeeded in proving his allegations court, who was highly respected all over the judge of the admiralty would not be the world_even by the enemy. A near affected because overcharges and such relation of his having been lately in Ames matters of practice did not come regularly rica, had remarked on his coming home, under bis cognizance. He then passed that it was singular that notwithstauding a bigh eulogium on the character and the great number of American vessels abilities of the judge of the adiniralty brought before the admiralty court, there court, who, by a course of decisions which was no man more esteemed in that counwere published, had established a system try than his bon. friend near hina (Sir W. of maritime jurisprudence, that shewed Scoit.) the world that we were not the tyrants Lord Cochrane observed, with reference of the seas, but that our proceedings were to what had fallen from the hon. gent. founded in justice and moderation. Not opposite (sir John Nicholls), that it was withstanding the interference of his duties improper that the navy should be obliged with the interests of the people of other to pay spies. They ought to be paid by nations, there was no man whose character the government.
Another bon. gent. stood higher either in Europe or on the (Mr. Rose) had admitted that there were otber side of the Atlantic than that of the abuses in the admiralty court, and, he judge of the admiralty. He hoped the noble trusted therefore, he would not oppose the lord, therefore, would see the propriety of going into a committee to correct them. abstaining from indiscriminate censures He repeated his assertions as to the ex. upon the court of admiralty, as this might cellent effects which the correction of be extremely injurious to the public ser- these abuses would have upon the energies vice.
of the navy,
and affirmed, that in the way Sir Charles Pole stated, that he had a of capture, a well manned frigate, under paper in his hand from a person whom the proper encouragement, would do more righi hon. gent. opposile (Mr. Rose) had than the whole channel fleet did at preaccused of charging more than the king's sent. proctor, representing bim as having Sir W. Scott observed with some warmth, charged 50 guineas for a memorial. The that the noble Jord bad taken merit to paper stated that this person had never himself for having brought forward the charged more than two guineas for any accusation at the end of last session. He single memorial. If he had made a charge could not concur in the opinion that the of 50 guineas, therefore, it must have in noble lord deserved approbation on that cluded a variety of items in several causes. account. It was brought forward at a
Mr. Rose said, that be bad spoken from time when it was impossible that the nean account given in to the register of the cessary means could be used to repel it; admiralty on oath, wbere a memorial was and thus the accusation hung over him for set down, 50 guineas. This, however, six months, and as his friends could not might admit of explanation. He main. be all aware how very unfounded these tained, that if the business carried on by charges were, the accused was in some the king's proctor should be thrown open, measure in the situation of an excommuthe consequence would be extremely in- nicated person. He could not therefore jurious to the n-ivy, and to the interests of agree that the noble lord had treated him commerce, as the ships of innocent persons in this business with candour or justice. would be almost perpetually brought in In the early part of this session, the noble for adjudication, to the detriment of the lord had taken an opportunity of repeating captors and merchants. He now, how all the invectives before the time came aver, had almost daily before him cases when they could be answered. He had of charges in prize proceedings, and he now however, brought his facts before the pledged himself to the navy and to the House in the papers laid on the table ; and country, to bring these, where they seemed the result was, that though they should be improper, before the admiralty court, and all proved to the utmost extent, the cha. procure redress and a steady system of racier of the judge and of the court of admiralty would not be in the least affect- , noble lord would recollect, that it was ed by them. They were circumstances the province of that court to maintain the for which the judge was not at all respon- maritime rights of this country, and that sible. The judge was only responsible this could not be done without exciting a for his own conduct and that of those acto | good deal of irritation in neutrals. But ing under him, when regularly brought to if these imputations were perpetually his notice. The king's proctor and ad- thrown out against it, neural nations vocate were oficers of the crown like the would not subinit with any degree of paattorney and solicitor general. The court tience. The profession the noble lord had was not responsible for their conduct on chosen was most honourable, and he (sir charges, nor for the charges and conduct William Scoti) had, in his humble sphere, of any of those practising in it, except been as attentive as possible to its intercomplaint was made to the judge. He had ests. But such imputations as these might no more knowledge of these things than produce dangerous impressions in the the noble lord himself. If any improper lower orders, for he could not suppose practices of this nature, supposing them that the officers could be misled by them. to exist, (which he was far from believing What would be their feelings if they were 10 the extent stated by the noble lord) really to believe that there was a general had been brought to his notice, and he conspiracy in the admiraliy court against had refused to do justice, then, indeed, them? The honourable judge concluded ought he to hear the thunders of that by repeating that even if the noble lord House about his head, as he had heard the made out his case to the full extent (which noble lord's invectives. As to the confin. he could not), the court of admiralty ing of captors to the king's proctor, he would not be at all affected. believed it to be a wise and prudent re- Lord Cochrane explained, gulation; but still he had nothing to do Mr. William Smith had no doubt of the with it. 'That did not in the least depend personal integrity of the judge in his pubon him. This was an ordinance of the lie and private capacity ; but, he stated, king in council, for which he was not re- that he believed it to be the practice, sponsible. For himself he would not ob. when a vessel was brought in and proved ject to the production of the papers now to belong to a friendly power, and was called for, though he'did not well see what consequently discharged by the court, if good purpose they could serve. The no- an appeal was lodged, and war broke out ble lord had before called for all the pa- with that power, pending the appeals, to pers relative to the matters of prize, which condemn the vessel as lawful prize. He was in factcalling for all the records of the knew of nothing more like public robbery admiralty, which could not be examined. and piracy on the high seas, than such a With all due respect for the noble lord's practice. This perhaps was also the practalents, and talents like his must ever be re- tice of other nations, but it became this spected, however appreciated, he could not country to set the example of a more lihelp wondering that he had ever proposed beral system. He did not, however, mean such a motion. There might possibly be to blame any particular judge or minister. some objectionable facts relative to proc. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, tor's bills, but what could the court of that with regard to the papers moved for, admiralty have done on that point, unless he would not object to their production, brought to its notice ? The hon. judge although he did not think that this House then observed, that he did not mean to ought to be called upon in the first inclaim any particular respect for the ad. stance, to sit in judgment upon attorneys' miralty court, but he submitted to the and proctors' bills. When the papers noble lord and the House, that it was ne- should be all before the House, it would cessary to the due administration of justice be then fit to consider, whether to refer in that court, that it should be respected; them to a committee, or remit the matter and that no courtcould stand against these to the admiralty court. There was anogeneral impulations, which might produce ther point also, to which he particularly an injurious impression non vi sed sape ca- begged the attention of the noble lord. dendo. These acts, as he said before, did He seemed to imagine that the French not at all apply to the court, but even if custom-houses were an ample source of they had done so to a certain extent, there revenue to that nation. But it appeared, was a respect due to a court of justice, from a statement of the French minister which ought not to be forgotten. The of finance, that the case was far otherwise,