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grant any office in reversion or to two or more persons with benefit of survivorship, until six weeks after the commencement of the next session of parliament."

Mr. Secretary Ryder, as one of those to whom his hon. friend had made his appeal, felt it his duty to state the ground of his opposition to the resolution. The hon. gent. had said that his motion was the same as that which had passed nem. con. in August 1807. But if his recollection was right, that address of 1807 had been voted, after the rejection in the Lords of a bill which passed that House for the unlimited restriction of the granting places in reversion. This had, therefore, been taken for the purpose of giving effect to the principle upon which that House had agreed. He felt then an objection to the mode of proceeding by Address; and the only reason that operated in his mind in not opposing it was, that it was at the time the only practicable mode of preventing the granting of places in reversion. But what was the fact now? Was this the close of the session? Was there no other mode of accomplishing the object the hon. gent. had in view? They had every reason to believe, from what was known of sentiments expressed in another place, that, if they should pass a limited bill, it would meet the concurrence of the other House. Such a bill would answer the end of the hon. gent. as effectually as an Address; and, unless his hon. friend should state more satisfactory grounds for his proposition, he should prefer the proceeding by bill. It was a principle universally admitted, that that House should be very cautious of legislating for the country at large, except in cases of absolute necessity. He could refer for an illustration of this principle to the long parliament, and the calamities entailed upon the country by its attempt to legislate for the mo narchy upon its own authority. hoped, therefore, that his hon. friend would not press his motion; at least, not until he should try the experiment of a bill, and find, that this would be the only practicable mode of attaining his object. But if his hon. friend should not withdraw his proposition, in order to give an opportunity to bring in a bill, he trusted that the House would decide against it.

were fond of perplexity, and dealt in difficulties, whose minds were not only capable of conceiving, but of maintaining such an absurd and incomprehensible quibble. To him it appeared, that, if the act for rendering perpetual the suspending act had passed, it would have been impossible for the practice to have been renewed. That, according to any sound principle of reasoning, would have been the operation of the measure. Could any man possibly suppose that the bill would not have been a perpetual prohibitory measure? At least, those who opposed the principle could not entertain a contrary opinion; because, if they had any impression upon the subject, it must be that they were afraid it would fully accomplish its object. The bill which had been sent up from that House, had had, he was happy to say, the assent and support of the Speaker, and was worded and framed in the same manner as all bills for rendering suspending acts perpetual, of which there had been two striking instances during last session. He wished, however, fairly to state to the House, that, if not for the peculiar circumstances of the case, he should never have assented to the bill of 1808, framed as it had been. He had entertained hopes that the spirit of conciliation manifested by the House of Commons, would have given an opportunity for the absurd and unfounded apprehensions which existed elsewhere on this subject, to subside. Finding, however, the contrary to be the case, and that there existed a determined principle to resist every measure designed to prevent the grant of reversions; finding that there was no chance that a bill for that object would pass the other House, it appeared to him that the only constitutional course which remained, was to vote an address to his Majesty, as in the year 1807, and then to bring in a bill for carrying the principle into effect. It might be said that the present motion was not brought forward at the close of a session as the former was, and that, therefore, there would be full time to bring in a bill, such as that of 1508. But under all the circumstances of the case, he thought the proceeding by address the proper course; and it would be for the right hon. gent. opposite to explain the grounds of opposition to that course, which they had approved of in the Lord A Hamilton thought, that some former case. The hon. gentleman conunfortunate fatality hung over every meacluded by moving, "That an humble Ad-sure introduced for the purpose of restrictdress be presented to his Majesty praying ing the granting of places in reversion. that he would be graciously pleased not to To be consistent with themselves, and, if

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address, was, that he would leave the matter altogether to the discretion of his faithful Commons. In that case, the House could proceed effectually with the bill, as such consent would do away all the ob jections entertained in another place.

Sir J. Newport objected to a bill for sus pending the granting of reversions, because it had already been made an argument against passing a bill in perpetuity; and the oftener bills of suspension were passed, the stronger would that argument become. Those who favoured the sus

actuated by any desire to promote the in-ceive his Majesty likely to give to such an terests of the country, ministers were bound to give effect to those measures of economy recommended in the speech from the throne the first session after they came into power. But, when he considered their conduct hitherto, he could see no ground for reliance upon them for any such measures. He was sure that the House of Commons was not in the slight est degree disposed to any improper attempt to legislate for the country at large. If this question should be got rid of by a division, it would be impossible that the country should not conceive an unfavour-pension, were in general those who were able opinion of the objects of that House, and of the sincerity of his Majesty's ministers respecting measures of economy. There was one reason, indeed, which made it imperative upon them to carry into effect the principle of this proposition; namely, that the great, efficient, and permanent obstacle to all plans of economy, in any of the public departments, arose from the existence of grants of offices in reversion. Though the prevention of such grants might not in itself be a very material reform, it would be an effectual step to that object which the House had in view, and which was distinctly recognized in resolutions then before them, founded on the third report of the Committee of Finance.

Mr. R Dundas said, that the question was not as to the principle of not granting reversions, but whether they should pass a bill for that purpose or move an address? and when that question was put to him, he had no hesitation in preferring the mode of bill as the more constitutional mode.

enemies to the abolition; and he would rather prefer the measure of the hon. gent. who originated this business, and whom he believed, to be sincere and interested for its success, than that of those, who, from his heart, he thought, were hollow and deceitful in their professions.

Mr. B. Bathurst thought either of the modes would produce the same effect; but as he deemned the proceeding by a bill to be more constitutional than that by an address he would vote for a bill.

Mr. Peter Moore said, the subject was of great national importance, and he must beg leave to offer his reasons for supporting the motion.-The measure itself, of preventing the grant of reversions, he said, though most important, was one of the most unfortunate that ever came before the House for discussion; that although it had had a great many nurses, it was stunted in its growth, and although surrounded and protected by a host of friends and guardians, he saw no prospect of its ever arriving at maturity.-Nor was this the only dreary conclusion which he drew from this unfortunate case; he felt it as a full manifestation of the general result of all the labours of the Finance Committee, and in this he was amply supported by the reception with which their several Mr. Lambe was of opinion that the pass-detached Reports had hitherto been met by ing of bills of suspension would cut up altogether the ground of the principle from under their feet. He was one of those who objected to these suspending measures, and thought, that in justice to their own principle, they should pass the prohibitory bill.

Mr. S. Bourne had always been, and was still, a friend to the principle of restricting the grant of places in reversion. He should prefer, however, the mode of proceeding by bill.

the administration of the country; absolutely rendering all their efforts and struggles in behalf of the public nugatory and useless; thereby converting the Committee into a masque for all the mischiefs and abuses in the financial department. Mr. Moore said, he should now recall to the attention of the House, the several Reports hitherto made by the Finance Committee, in support of the position he had laid down. This was absolutely necessary, in order to remind the House of the situ

Mr. D. Giddy was of opinion, that it would not be a breach of the privileges of that House to address for permission to restrict this branch of the prerogative, and to obtain the consent of the crown to this measure. The only answer he could con-ation in which they stood, and to point

out the prospect the public had to expect from the continued labours of the Finance Committee, on which so much expectation had been formed, so much anxious hope entertained in the public mind; and thus, by contemplating what had been done, the House and the country would form some judgment of what was likely to be done. The Finance Committee, he said, had now sat three years, during which time, they had made four Reports; to these he should now advert.-The first was on the subject of a large sum of money which had been taken from the cash, voted by the House and appropriated to the payment of the army, by one of the paymasters-general, confessedly on false public pretences, and which he had applied to his own private purposes. This officer was also a member of the privy council, and the king's remembrancer in the exchequer, whose especial duty it is, regularly to report periodically, and put in regular process against all persons defaulting, and holding in their hands the public money. Let the House also recollect the very inauspicious situation in which this Report was received; that it was actually laying on the bar of the House, ready to be brought up to the table, when the usher of the black rod knocked at the door, to announce the dissolution of parliament, and, let it not be forgotten under what circum-ed no less than from 27,000l. to 30,000l. stances that dissolution was effected. Here he should only add, that that violent measure aggravated the responsibility of ministers for every other plan and measure which they have since pursued, and made it the more immediately incumbent on them, when this first Report of the Finance Committee did reach this House, to support the Committee in the recovery of the public property; and to mark the conduct of the public officer guilty of this flagrant breach of public trust, with such exemplary process and punishment, as his own undeniable and undefensible conduct had called for, with the further design and view of preventing any similar practice in other departments. But what (said the hon. member,) has been done? The public money has indeed, after eight or nine years of importunity supported by this Report, been recovered; but no one step has been taken to vindicate the insults offered to the law, and to the official trusts of the public: Mr. Steele still remains a member of the privy council; and still continues to hold the office

of remembrancer in the court of exchequer, in which, no doubt, the most active vigilance may now be expected in process. against other defaulters, because he has himself, the great mover of all, been studiously spared. But, what do the House now find as one of the direct consequences? They have now Reports before them of other great defaulters holding the important offices, of great trust, of paymaster to the marines, and treasurer of the ordnance department. What the exact sum of the balance of the former is, he did not know; as it was in a department which had uniformly reserved pecuniary management, to their own exclusive jurisdiction, and made no reports to the House, though often required; but there was a strong presumptive evidence that the object was of no very trifling consideration, as the admiralty board had proceeded much further against Mr. Villiers, than the treasury board had done against Mr. Steele, and had actually. proceeded to bestow Mr. Villiers's trust on another gentleman, a member of the House, although the rumours in circulation were, that Mr. Villiers had not been well treated.-As to the sum in the hands of the treasurer of the ordnance, it is stated in a Report on the table to exceed 90,000l. without any securities: of which sum, Mr. Moore said, he had been inform

had been in this treasurer's hands ever since he quitted the office on the change in administration in 1805; and he desired to repeat this information the more especially for the attention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, (the Chancellor of the Exchequer at this moment came into his place), who perhaps had not before heard it, with a view to excite his active attention to the immediate recovery of it, seeing, that in general, the older a debt grows, the hope of recovery becomes the more desperate. Now, said Mr. Moore, I humbly contend, that if a public prosecution had been instituted against the right hon. Thomas Steele, in the first instance, as it ought to have been, with a view to public example, most probably the House would never have heard of the defaults of Mr. Villiers, Mr. Hunt, and others; nor the public property have been in danger and in hazard, if not wholly lost. But said he, I shall conclude what I have to say on this first Report of the Finance Committee, by putting it to the House to reflect, at this time of avowed

general difficulty, and individual distress, when taxation bears harder on the subject than at any known period of time, in the annals of the nation; how many families must be pinched and distressed by exactions to meet a sum of taxes equal to these deficiencies.(Hear! hear! hear! from the opposition side.) I hope, said Mr. Moore, we shall not hear of any more such splendid defaulters; but with such examples before the House, of great political connections, he thought instant measures should be adopted to secure the public property in every department of state without exception.

The second Report of the Finance Committee was on the subject of the Bank of England, as managers of the public funds. The Committee had made a very particular statement of the public dealings with the Bank, and had pointed out a very large saving, highly advisable and practicable, in the allowance to be made them in future. They were allowed, at the commencement of the sinking fund, equal to 450l. per million for their charges of management, but what might be reasonable for management of a small sum, became the heighth of extravagance on a sum of such enormous magnitude as the public concern now annually amounts to; at a period too, when the House must be perfectly confident that other bankers would chearfully undertake the management at one guinea, or, at the utmost, one and a half per million, with equal security and accommodation to the public; or indeed without any allowance whatever for management, as the Bank of England ought to do, seeing, that by the use of the public funds and their issue of Bank paper only, they are put in the capacity, and are in the habit and profit, of discounting mercantile bills and commercial undertakings of from one and an half to two millions sterling per week; and that, as one of the obvious results of these enormous profits and advantages, Bank stock has within the same period more than doubled in value. The chairman of the Finance Committee very strenuously contended in his place in this House, for the reduction alluded to, but to no purpose; and in this negative I contend (said Mr. Moore), this Second Report was virtually annihilated; and as I stated last year, the sacrifice of the public rights was no less than 200,000l. per annum.

The third Report of the Finance Committee exhibited the pensions, places, sinecures, and reversions, out of which

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the question now before the House has arisen.-Now, said Mr. Moore, of the whole of the Reports made by the Committee, this question for the prohibition of reversions, seems to be the only objectwhich great pains have been taken to follow up, and to render complete and final; and the House testifies under what difficulties it labours, what extensive, and formidable, dark, insidious opposition it has to encounter, so as to afford little prospect of success by following it up with bill after bill, sessions after sessions, in a manner they have experienced. I will not, said Mr. Moore, use those harsh terms which the question justifies, but I insist on it there is a fixed and systematic hypocritical insincerity somewhere and thus feeling, he trusted that the House would not part with their jurisdiction over this financial question, and that they would prefer address upon address, year after year, until their reasonable and national end was accomplished.

The last Report of the Finance Committee, continued Mr. Moore, brought to the knowledge of the House and the nation, the conduct of the life-and-propertypledgers, and their meaning and interpre tation of " Loyalty," in the truly patriotic and disinterested secret management of Mr. John Bowles and the Dutch commissioners, in their trust of nearly two millions of public property, for a period of upwards of 14 years.-For want of the public accounts of last year, said Mr. Moore,) on which subject he would move for a standing order as soon as the enquiry and state of the business before the House would admit of it,) it was not possible for him or any member of the House not in office, to know, what had been done by ministers, on the subject of the large sums of money reported to be in the hands of these commissioners.-But he trusted and expected to find, that all those moneys had been brought into the public treasury, and that no class of men of any description should be suffered to lay down the measure and standard of their own reward in appreciation of their own conduct, and to apply the trust-funds of the public to their own separate use and wild abuse. When the annual accounts were produced, Mr. Moore said he should look for a rigid return and account of those monies, or not finding it so, he should have no hesitation in pronouncing his opinion that the ministers of the country had been guilty of great neglect and dereliction of

duty.

duty. The people of this country had formidable, as to render it difficult, in never been called on, and did not contri- the extreme, for any minister, whether in bute, taxes to promote private interests, or or out of this House, to venture to resist to support a corrupt system of favouritismit, after the unqualified confession, so and predilection and he never would lately made in this House, in truth and silently hear, that those supplies which in fact from the materials of the minister's were consecrated to public dignity, and own private escrutoire, and to which they national security, were misapplied to sup- have not any one of them offered any port a system of corrupt influence and contradiction, of the distressed state of the misrule. finances of the country.-An hon. memThese four, Mr. Speaker, are the only ber on this side the House (Mr. Giddy) Reports hitherto received from the Finance has suggested as an alternative of obtainCommittee. Of the humble value to ing the bill in question, and in future of which, (though in their original condition avoiding the opposition given to it in the and meaning of great importanee), they House of Lords, to address the King to have been reduced by the improvident pray his royal assent to both Houses for manner in which they have been disposed instituting a bill for the purpose. Mr. of by ministers, I shall now leave the Moore said, he thought this the most House and the public to form their own extraordinary doctrine he had ever heard judgment. But, feeling as I do, without a within those walls,-that the House should change of management, I much despair of petition the King for leave to move in a the continued labours of the committee financial case, which from the very essence proving of much greater comparative of the constitution exclusively appertained advantage to the public. We must, in a to this House alone, and he was sure it great degree, govern our opinions of the could not for a moment be countenanced future by past advantages. But, Sir, said by the House. Perhaps, said Mr. Moore, Mr. Moore, I shall not quit the subject the hon. member confounds this with without a particular exhortation to the hon. the practice which prevails, that when member on the floor, as chairman of the any petition comes before the House imCommittee. I exhort him and his col- plicating the grant of public money, that leagues to a rigid and firm perseverance. it must have the king's consent; but, They now stand in a very different situ- continued he, the last case is wholly ation from that of which they very pro- different, and extends only to a point of perly complained last year. This sessions compromise, as it may be called; the the hon. chairman has a committee vir- application is made on a conclusion that tually of his own selection, they have not the grant to be made is out of money which any personal embarrassment now to com- has already been voted and appropriated plain of; the public expectation is un- to his Majesty's use, as the national supcommonly great; the national anxiety plies, and that any part to be otherwise throbs vastly high for the Committee's appropriated by the consent of the crown final Report, of a whole system of reform the House will make good.-Not however, and retrenchment in the immense public said he, but that there appears a manifest expenditure of the country, the very absurdity in these messages, of the crown savings of which ought to form an impor--consenting that the House shall dispose tant national supply, adverting, that the annual expenditure, at this time, is more than four times the amount, at the beginning of the war.-It is true, said Mr. Moore, the Committee of Finance have received no great encouragement to continue their honourable exertions to the public, from the ministerial countenance given to their Reports on detached subjects. But he nevertheless conjured them to a steady perseverance for the gratification of the public in the production of an whole system, which the public expected as the result of their integrity, firmness, and decision; and he trusted, such a Report would now come, in strength so

VOL. XVI.

of their own supplies, and he should be ready to discuss the point with a view to set the principle at rest. The right hơn, the secretary at state for the home department has asked, would the House now imitate the arbitrary times of Charles the 1st, and arrogate to themselves the whole powers of the legislature. Mr. Moore said, no the financial jurisdiction was exclusively their own, and conjured the House not to part with it. He said, the times of Charles 1. had indeed a committee of safety: so he trusted had the present; for, in that light, he now considered the Finance Committee-he said, he desired no other committee of safety, and B**

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