rate reform, and which, while it did away obnoxious offices, would establish a fund in their room, calculated to answer every object which those who pleaded for the existence of such offices professed to have in view. The honourable member concluded with proposing the amendment he had described. Mr. Martin said, he should have been desirous to have abolished entirely all sinecure places; but as he was anxious to gain something, rather than lose all, he would accede to the amendment proposed by the hon. gentleman (Mr. Bankes.) The right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer had said, that the House should not interfere without being able to do something effectual, He allowed the position, because he thought it was high time they should do something effectual; for the House had been upwards of thirty years promising the people a relief or al leviation from these burdens, and yet, let who would bring forward the subject, nothing had been done in it. He thought the hon. gentleman had founded his resolutions on those of Lord North in 1782; and though he differed in opinion as to the effect, yet he was willing to support the hon. gent's. resolutions, because, as he before said, he would be willing to obtain a little rather than to do nothing. He had however, a very great objection to the system of rewarding public services, by sinecure places, because the crown was not conscious of what it gave; and to prevent the servants of the public from being too profusely rewarded, it would be more satisfactory to the parties requiring reward for public services, to have the reward defined, than to have it conferred in the way in which it was now done. And as the national debt had increased in a degree beyond all imagination, it was the duty of the House to lessen these burthens as much as possible. There was one circumstance which struck him most forcibly, which was, that where a person of large hereditary fortune had done meritorious services, he ought not surely to expect the same degree of remuneration as a person who had dedicated his whole life without any fortune of his own to support him, save only his own exertions and superior talents. Under these circumstances, being desirous to obtain the best relief he was able, he should support the resolution of the hon. gentleman. Mr. Long, in allusion to the opinion of Mr. Burke with respect to the abolition of places of this description, stated that it was not the opinion of that gentleman that all sinecure offices should be abolished. The hon. gent. who proposed the amendment had not stated any substitution for the places abolished, nor had he indeed informed the House at what time the abolition was to take place. He had seemed to consider that in the distribution of the offices there were great abuses, and that the crown had influence sufficient. But when the House should consider the difference in the value of money now and at the time when his Majesty came to the throne they would find the influence of the crown had derived very little accession from the disposal of the sinecures. It did not appear that the hon. gent. had furnished a sufficient argument for the abolition, because though persons might have done little service to the state, still they deserved reward. He entirely differed from him in the idea that civil servants should not be rewarded with sinecure offices, on the contrary he conceived that none but civil servants ought to be rewarded in that manner. For instance would it be correct to have rewarded such a man as lord Nelson with the place of auditor of the exchequer ? Lord Althorpe would support the amendment, although his opinion was rather in favour of the original resolutions. He asserted that the influence of the crown had increased insomuch that in order to preserve the balance of the constitution it was desirable that that influence should be reduced. Therefore the total abolition of sinecures would more readily meet his approbation. As a means of rewarding meritorious services, which was the alledged plea for the existence of these sinecures, he thought them peculiarly unsuitable, and for two reasons; first, because, when the meritorious service should recur which called for reward, it was improbable that a sinecure office would be vacant; and, secondly, because, it was improbable that such office would be a fit reward for such service. Mr. W. Smith said, that all the House was at present bound to do was, to consider the advantages resulting from both plans, and to do something that would make matters better than they are at this moment. Notwithstanding what had just been said by the right hon. gent. who spoke last but one, he could not conceive the reason why naval and military services should not be rewarded from sine a cure offices. It would certainly be an alleviation of the public burdens; and the only advantageous ground that ministers had to stand on was, that it was a custom which had long prevailed that they should altogether be applied to civil services. He thought it most extraordinary, thatafter giving a sinecure office of 2,700l. a year to a right hon. gent. (Mr. Yorke) that same person should, in a very short time afterwards, be appointed to one of the first offices under the government, viz. that of first lord of the admiralty. If the right hon. gent. had been rewarded with a pension, he thought it would have been otherwise. It had been said on this subject, that these sinecures were originally intended, not only as rewards for services performed, but as marks of the sovereign's favour. He would, however, be bound to say, that from the Norman conquest to the present moment, there was no one reign in which this sort of favouritism, whenever exerted, was not unfortunate. What, he asked, had become of the 60,000l. a year granted for the privy purse of his Majesty, which was intended to be for the very purpose of enabling his Majesty to confer marks of his favour in rewarding public services; yet on every occasion which had since occurred, where public services were to be rewarded, this 60,000l. a year, instead of being applied to that purpose, had been expended, no one knew how; and in the reward of public services ministers had uniformly applied to parliament for grants from the civil list. When the crown granted the office of registrar of the admiralty to the right hon. gent.'s (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) father, it never could have imagined that the fees would amount to the enormous sums it now did, from the circumstance of the navy of England taking prizes from every nation in the world that sent ships to sea; and it was certainly extravagant beyond measure, that such an office should be continued further than the life of the present remaining reversioners.-He contended that the principle on which the present resolution was founded, was not new, but had been acted upon through a long series of years; and, in support of his opinion, quoted several acts of resumption in many reigns. Novelty could not, therefore, be urged against the measure. The necessity for abolishing sinecures, arose from the severe pressure of the public burdens. These could only be reduced by lowering the annual expenditure, and not less by the present measure, which would convince the people that, whether great or small, the economy of government was directed to prevent any imprudent waste of money, which, by being restrained would lessen the taxes. It had been said, that ail ollicers attached to the crown, and princes of the blood, should be spared in this reform; but he had no hesitation in saying, that the dignity and honour of the crown would be more effectually consulted in attaching the affections of the people, than by pensioning 12 lords of the bed-chamber at 1,000l. a year, who had votes in the other House, and generally voted one way. Were they without salary, would the splendour of the crown be diminished, or the character of these noble lords lowered in public estimation? Mr. Bastard declared it absolutely necessary in consequence of the extended pa tronage of the crown, and of extended burthens of the people, to follow up the principle of retrenchment in every de partment of the state. There was a ferment abroad; and the surest way to disarm those actuated by improper hopes was to allord reasonable indulgence to the great body of the people.-The ferment existing had not a stronger source of supply than in the thought, that whilst com mittees of that House were suggesting many plans of economical reform, as ab solutely necessary, the House was in the uniform habit of not only not attending to, but of actually over-ruling their suggestions. He concluded with observing, that even if the House was not inclined to be honest from principle, the time was now come when it should be so from necessity. Mr. Wharton said, the retrenchment of sinecures would not lessen in any extent worth notice, the burdens of the people. It was therefore on the principle alone that the matter was worth discussing. He objected to the present resolutions, because they abolished one source of reward, and said they would substitute another, which other they did not define. In opposition to the noble lord and hon, gent. opposite (lord Althorpe and Mr. Smith) he asserted, that the influence of the crown, so far from having increased, had decreased(Shouts of hear! hear! from the Opposi tion.) He defended this assertion, on the ground that though the patronage of the crown had increased double since 1782, in consequence of the increased expendi ture, yet that it was not in a greater propor tion to the wealth and population of the country, on which it had now to operate. In proof of this, he took the value of land and of trade, and thence deduced, that the wealth of the nation was in proportion of five to one, to what it had been in 1782. Mr. Whitbread said, the speech of the hon. and learned secretary of the treasury was a repetition of what he understood was said by him over and over again in the Committee-room up stairs. Indeed it was more applicable to any other subject than to the one on which it was introduced; it would suit a discussion upon the assize of bread much better, than a debate on the propriety of this restriction of the grants of the crown. With respect to these sinecures the country had but one opinion from the system of favouritism pursued and the abuses visible in the way in which they were conferred, scarce a man out of the doors of that House could be found their advocate. They were not suited to the taste of the army, nor to the navy; but in the language of the hon. secretary, they were fitted for the civil department-that was for such efficient pub. lic servants as the learned secretary himself.-Mr. Whitbread next adverted to the grant recently made to Mr. Yorke, and contended that the public were not alone disgusted with such grant, but that from such an illustration every sinecure grant became an object of public aversion. Such opinions had been expressed in that House very generally, and he had himself heard the present secretary for Ireland (Mr. W. Pole) and a colonel (Wood) of one of the Middlesex regiments of militia state, that for their public services, whenever it should be thought fit to reward them, they would never condescend to take a sinecure office. Numerous were the evil effects, arising from such grants, and not the less considerable one was that these sinecures prevented the necessary increase of salary to the great efficient offices of the state. What for instance was the argument advanced in the favour of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, when it was in contemplation to give him the Chancellorship of the duchy of Lancaster for life? It was then contended that the salary of the first office was not a sufficient remuneration for the discharge of its duties. It was however to be presumed, now that the same right hon. gent. was also first lord of the treasury, that he would not condescend to take that of the duchy VOL. XVI. and to receive the salaries of three offices. (It was here whispered to Mr. Whitbread that he did not take the salary of Chancellor of the Exchequer). He begged pardon; he really had only just heard what he was before unacquainted with, that the right hon. gent. had declined, by a minute of the treasury, receiving the emoluments of the Chancellorship of the Exchequer; he had not been before informed of the fact, and therefore it was not to be wondered at that he had made the mistake. The option of such emoluments ought not, however, to be left to any man, and in his opinion, as well for their integral impropriety as for their lately incurred disgrace, sinecures themselves ought to be altogether abolished. To prove the gross misapplication of those sinecures he had only to state that Mr. Yorke had got 2,700l. a year, and lord Wellington only received 2,000l. Thus it was court favourites were rewarded, even above those whom ministers themselves decided to have merit. He wished before he sat down, totally to disapprove of the distinction which the learned gentleman who spoke last, seemed to make between the King and the people; they were one and indivisible, and the King's best interests depended on and sprung from the people. The Chancellor of the Exchequer agreed with the hon. gent. as to one point, that the interests of the King and people were the same. With respect to the propositions brought forward, he considered one of them as wholly useless. The adop tion of it would effect nothing in point of economy, and do but little towards the diminution of prerogative. The proposition he alluded to was, that which declared that the remuneration of services by pension, was preferable to that by sinecure offices. He could not adopt his hon. friend's distinction, that pensions were more honourable than sinecures. He was persuaded that such a change would not abate one particle of the clamour that was so industriously excited against the latter. The gentlemen opposite would quarrel with pensions just as they did with sinecures. Did any man believe that this was the way to please and content the people, or appease the clamour, which those who declaim against sinecures, as stigmatising the individuals who accepted of them were too apt to increase? He defended the appointment of Mr. Yorke, than whom a more honourable man did 4 A whose sentiments would be suspected; but he would rather consent to be plundered of his property than to give up his liberties. He thought this one of those otherwise indifferent propositions, by which it was possible, by agreeing to it to separate those who felt well-grounded discontent from those who pretended to feel so. The motion, therefore, bad his support. The not exist; and contended that this appointment had cast no odium on the system of rewarding services by grants of sinecure places. As for his emoluments, if it would afford the hon. gent. any pleasure, he could inform him that Mr. Yorke had, in consequence of holding the office of teller of the exchequer, relinquished the 2,000l. a year additional granted during the administration, of which Mr. T. Grenville formed a part, to that gentleman, Mr. Canning maintained that the fabric as first lord of the admiralty.-He was not of the monarchy could never be supported for his own part disposed to agree in the except the throne was surrounded, not assertion that that House never could be merely by a decent but a gorgeous splenbackward in liberally rewarding public dour. He was persuaded the offices, services. Why, those were the very which his hon. friend proposed to abolish services respecting the remuneration of could not be touched without vital danger which an impartial decision could never to the constitution. Something however be expected from the House. It was im- should be done with the Report. possible that gentlemen could agree to House should either concur in the propo reward those whom they were in the habit sitions contained in it, or negative them of opposing for a number of years, and altogether. His objection to the propo whose acts they reprobated or affected to sition of his hon. friend, was that he adopt condemu as the cause of whatever cala-ed only half of the plan recommended by mities might have befallen the country. He protested too against the position laid down by his hon. friend (Mr. Bankes), that an office granted under the great seal might be resumed. The admission of such a principle would shake the fourdation of all property. It might as well be said, that the donation lands granted by Henry the 8th to the ancestors of the duke of Bedford might be cancelled at this day, because they became infinitely more valuable than the original donor intended. There were only two ways in which the proposition could come recommended, with regard to its economical effect, and as it might diminish the prerogative. Of the former the House had no proof whatever before it; as to the latter he was persuaded, the same objections would apply to pensions that were urged against sinecures. Upon these grounds he should feel bound to oppose the Resolution as not likely to give satisfaction in any point of view. Lord Milton was of opinion, that the resolutions of his hon. friend deserved the support of the House. He thought, if they were carried, they would do away a great deal of public scandal. A sinecure when once granted must be conferred anew when it became vacant, whether there was or was not a deserving person ready to receive it. This was not the case with a pension. As to the influence of the crown, he thought it had increased in a very rapid degree. He was not a person Such the Committee. He could not, however, neration might be easily got over. He did not view the proposition as trenching on the prerogative of the crown. He considered himself, however, no farther bound by his vote than to entertain the proposition. Whether he might hereafter assent to it wholly, or in part, would depend on the view in which it would be presented to him. Mr. Peter Moore then rose and said, However unwilling I am to trouble the committee at this late hour, on a question too which has so often been debated, and therefore almost precludes the possibility of introducing novelty, I must nevertheless throw myself on the patience and indulgence of the Committee for a very short time. It will be in the recollection of the Committee, that when my hon. and learned friend (Mr. Martin) originally introduced to the House his propositions, arising out of the Third Report of the Committee of Finance, I declared my opinion, in the most decisive and unqualified terms, that as his propositions did not go far enough, inasmuch as they did not go to an absolute and positive abolition of these sinecures, I could not support them; of course, finding that the propositions now before the Committee, brought forward by the hon. gent. on the floor (Mr. Bankes) even fall far short of my learned friend's, it cannot be expected that they will meet my support. They cannot, Sir. I will not be content with any measure that shall fall short of complete abolition; because I feel and know the whole of this expenditure to be a direct waste of the public property; and, so feeling, I shall ill discharge the duty I owe to my constituents in particular, and to the state at large, if I countenance the continuance of an expenditure of this description. No, Sir; it is my duty to press and to insist on the abolition; and it is the just expectation of the public, who have repeatedly and firmly demanded it, by petitions and humble applications for a series of time past, that they should be relieved from these burthens. In the principle of this expectation, I am glad to find that the House are generally agreed; for, except the right hon. the chancellor of the exchequer, and the hon. gent. (Mr. Wharton) who sits near him, as far as the avowed sentiments of individual members can authorise such a conclusion, there appears to be no objection to the abolition, provided the Committee agree to some kind of substitute which is to be proposed hereafter on the strength of the amend ment proposed by the hon. mover, to form a fund for the reward of public services, to be at the disposal of the crown, in lieu of these exceptionable sinecures. But, let the committee consider a little the grounds on which the right hon. the chancellor of the exchequer treats this position. He considers it on two grounds: first, as to the quantum of saving to the public after a substitute shall have been established; and, secondly, how far it will diminish the influence of the crown. Now, as to the first point, the right hon. gent. makes it a matter of calculation. I am glad of it, because, then, though contrary to his general position, the right hon. gent. subscribes to the propriety of conceding this obnoxious source of expenditure to the people, and removing the odium in which it is justly held. He is, however, pleased to contend, that subject to this eperation, when the substitute has been formed, the residue will be so very small, that it could not be an object worthy the experiment. I hope, in these times, every retrenchment, however small, when retrenchment is become necessary, and has been so loudly demanded, will not be lost sight of; as a great number of small savings will soon form a considerable aggregate; and it ought to be im material to the public and to the Com mittee from whence they are derived, provided the aggregate be realized. Now, Sir, let me suppose that aggregate formed, by economical contributions, 3 or 400l. from one place, 2 or 3000 from another, ready for public appropriation. If we cannot have millions thus accumulated, as we ought to have, let us have hundred thousands, or fifty thousands, or even less sums, and then let the House avail themselves of (by rigidly applying) the congratulations of yesterday on the very advantageous terms on which the loan of the year has been contracted for. According to those terms, every 40,000 guineas and a small fraction of this aggregate of our savings, will exonerate the public burthens on the people to the amount of a million sterling. I have no doubt, that the abolition of these sinecures, would produce some millions in this way; and I have no hesitation in saying, the public have a right to demand it, as they have done, and to expect it, in common justice, from the fidelity of their trustees in this House, in relief of their own heavy burthens. These, then, would form no |