offices in reversion; and as the present session was so far advanced, let the House take full time at the commencement of the next, to consider what were offices the grant of which in reversion it would be expedient to abolish. relatives of the sovereign whom the revolutions and calamities of war on the continent had driven to this country for an asylum, that no attempt was made to derive that support from any fund which might prevent it from encreasing the public taxes and burthens: When they The Earl of Liverpool was surprised that saw that ministers advised their sovereign the noble earl (Grey) should have thought against the most gracious exercise of his that the defects of the present bill could own prerogative, in administering relief be remedied in a committee; for if it from a fund adequate for the purpose; should go there for amendment, he was when their complaints were perfectly un- persuaded it would come out with scarceregarded; and when, from other circum-ly a single provision, similar to its prestances universally to be lamented, the situation of his Majesty was unfortunately such, that it was not certain whether petitions and representations reached the royal ear, and when in fact every measure of government seemed calculated only more and more to oppose, insult, and disgust them? The great annual taxation on the country he considered to be the root of the popular discontent; and it behoved their lordships to do whatever lay in their power, by measures of a similar tendency with that now proposed, to alleviate it, and conciliate the public feelings. If it was little to do, let it be done, and give some proof that the House was not inattentive to the general wishes and opinion of the country. Viscount Sidmouth agreed with many of the observations made by bis noble friend, and, was of opinion, that it might be advisable to abolish the power of granting some offices in reversion. But he contended that a great delusion had gone forth with respect to this measure: there was much exaggeration on one side, and clamour on the other; but the fact was that the measure would take away nothing from the prerogative of the crown, nor in the least diminish the burthens on the people. Such were his opinions; at the same time he had so high a respect for the sentiment of the public, that he considered no blessing so great as when he 'found his own conduct meeting the public approbation. He certainly approved of the principle of this measure, and would gladly see it carried into effect; yet although he came down to the House for the purpose of giving this bill his support, from a perusal of its contents, and the observations of his noble and learned friend on the woolsack, he was persuaded it would not answer the end of removing the abuse. Under the present circumstances, he would recommend that a bill be introduced to suspend till next session, the grant of sent state. He adverted next to the public dissatisfaction, and observed that what ever attacks were made upon him and his colleagues, when that question came to be discussed, he should be very ready to defend himself from such charges. The noble earl had attributed the general discontent to the pressure of excessive taxation. But he would ask, was not that taxation necessary Must not our army and navy be extended in these times, when all Europe, under the dominion of one man, are arrayed in arms against us? Besides, were we not to take into consideration, the encreased commerce and riches of the country? If we were to estimate the proportion ofthe burthen and expence now, to the riches and commerce of the country at this period, and then compare them with a similar calculation made in king William's reign, he would venture to say it would appear that the people now were richer and abler to bear the burthens than they were in the reign he had mentioned. He wished that parliament should state in any measure of this description of what offices they meant to abolish the reversion, and how far they intended to carry this measure; and then he and others might form a decided opinion of its propriety. He concluded, by expressing his opposition to the present bill. The Earl of Corysfort agreed with the noble secretary of state, that the last clause was one that could not be maintained by their lordships, but ought to be rejected. It was not only an infringement of the prerogative of the crown, but also of that of the parliament. His lordship entered into a general review of the merits of the bill, and contended there was nothing in it to satisfy the discontents of the people; he allowed they were much depressed by taxes, but he agreed with the noble earl (Liverpool) that the dire necessity of the times made them necessary. Under these considerations he would oppose the bill. 1077] PARL. DEBATES, MAY 17, 1810.-Duke of Brunswick's Annuity Bill. [1078 Lord Redesdale hoped the noble earl, who moved for the second reading of the bill, would not press their lordships to a division. He would not enter largely into the merits of the bill, as he opposed it on the grounds that their lordships should not for a moment maintain its principle or give it countenance, by allowing it to pass a single stage. The question was then put, that the bill be read a second time, which was negatived without a division. The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and their lordships adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Thursday, May 17. [DUKE OF BRUNSWICK'S ANNUITY BILL.] On the order of the day for the third reading of this bill, Mr. Caleraft rose to remind the right hon. gent. that a right hon. friend of his, not yet come to his place (Mr. Tierney), had given notice of his intention to divide the House upon the question for the third reading. His right hon. friend was absent, at this hour, only from an understanding that the business would not come on so soon; and therefore he hoped that the short delay, usual under the courtesy of the House, would be allowed on the present occasion. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, that the other business of the day being now gone through, there was no alternative, from the motion he had made, but the question for adjournment. There was another subject upon which the right hon. gent. not now in his place, would have full as good an opportunity of expressing his sentiments, and taking the sense of the House; namely, the Droits of Admiralty. But he had no objection to withdraw his motion for the present. Mr. Sheridan said, that his right hon. friend was with him in a Committee up stairs, and was coming down to the House. Mr. Calcraft did not wish the motion to be withdrawn; nor should he, at this hour of the evening, press any delay of the public business on account of the absence of a member; but in the absence of his right hon. friend, he should certainly divide the House upon the question for the third reading of the bill. The House then divided on the third reading: For it, 41; Against it, 20.On the re-admission of strangers into the gallery, Mr. Martin was speaking upon the subject of this bill. He said, that if it was considered that, since the period when those Droits of Admiralty commenced, the House had added more than 200 millions to the public debt, he thought it was not unreasonable to ask gentlemen seriously to consider whether, out of the large sum of 5,200,000l. which appeared by the papers on the table to have accrued to the crown, it would not be wise and pru-, dent to advise his Majesty to apply a sufficient sum to purchase the annuity for a prince so nearly allied to his family. He admitted, for the present, the strict legal right of his Majesty to the disposal of this fund in what manner he should judge proper; but at the same time, when it was considered that his Majesty had a very large sum applicable to the expences of his privy purse, which it was supposed would be principally applied to acts of royal munificence, and when so large an addition was made to this fund by these Droits of Admiralty, he could hardly have expected that the House would have been called on to relieve, out of the consolidated fund, so near a relative of his Majesty. He begged that the ministers would seriously consider whether they would not be placing his Majesty in an ungracious point of view, if they were to advise him to apply no part of this fund to such a purpose; but to throw the whole incumbrance upon the country, which is at present so excessively burthened. or The Chancellor of the Exchequer was astonished that the hon. gent. should still continue to repeat the sum of 5,200,000l. notwithstandas the amount of the Droits of Admiralty, as appeared by the paper, He should ing all that had been already stated in the House upon that subject. have recollected, that of this sum twothirds were applied, in the first instance, to remunerate the captors, and that therefore but one third of the sum, 1,735,000l. could come to his Majesty. Of this sum, also, it had been stated that his Majesty, two or three years ago, gave a million to the public service; and he himself had stated more than once, that in the course of the last year between 3 and 400,000l. more were given to the captors, for the value of the prizes taken at Copenhagen, which must otherwise be It therefore paid for by the country. appeared, and that from the documents then before the House, this sum of 5,200,0001, had been reduced as low as 300,000l. The hon. gent. had only professed to argue from the papers on the table; and upon that paper, he therefore met him, without pretending to give an accurate account of the amount of this fund. He could not be called upon without any notice to state accurately what part of this fund was now undisposed of. There were some other grants made out of this fund, in the time of Mr. Pitt's administration, but which he did not think it then necessary to state. Mr. Creevey did not believe that it was by any means a general practice for the crown to give two-thirds of those Droits as a remuneration to the captors. In the case of the capture of the Spanish frigates, he had good reason to believe that no such proportion had been given. It had been, however, uniformly and expressly stated, that in such cases it was mere matter of grace and royal favour whether any thing should be given to the captors or not. It was in this point of view that it had appeared to him so enormous, that the crown should get hold of eight millions of money, without rendering any account whatever of its disbursement to the public. Lord Milton could not pretend to say which of the two hon. gentlemen was right. He had voted, however, against the bill, upon the idea that in the Droits of Admiralty there were sufficient funds to provide the proposed pension, without imposing any fresh burthens on the country, by charging it upon the surplus of the 'consolidated fund. If, however, there was not a sufficient, and by the gestures of the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he would rather understand that there was not a sufficient fund remaining of the Droits, his objections would," of course, be done away. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, that he by no means meant, either by his words or gestures, to signify that this fund could not afford 70,000l. which he believed would be about the value of the purchase of such annuity. It was, however, impossible for him to avoid shewing some surprise, when, instead of 70,000l. five millions was the sum which had first been spoken of. Mr. W. Smith said, that the question now was, whether the House should stop the progress of the bill till the account of Droits of Admiralty could be examined and discussed; or pass the bill now, and discuss afterwards whether the annuity might not be charged upon this fund? After the confession that there were 70,000l. in the hands of the registrar, the point, as far as the reason of the thing went, was decided. He agreed as to the monstrous nature of the circumstance, that the crown should have the disposal within a few years of eight millions of money, independent of Parliament. There had been formerly a question, whether the crown could accept of a voluntary loan, &c. but the absolute command without the controul of Parliament of this sum was monstrous. All this had arisen from the change of things in this country, to which we had not been always careful to accommodate our institutions. While the King paid his army and navy out of his own possessions, it was fair that he should have the disposal of whatever was captured. But when the country paid 19 millions for a navy, and about as mech for an army, was it equitable that the crown should have the proceeds of captures without the obligation of account? Another objection to it was, that it was à bounty upon injustice. The nation would be ashamed of improper captures from focs or friends; but a minister of the day might not scruple to procure large sums in this way. He adverted to the capture of the Spanish frigates, the greatest blot upon the administration of a right hon. gent. now no more. Such temptations ought not to be left upon any ministers. He hoped the Droits of Admiralty, would, at no distant period, be regulated by an act of Parliament, but, in the mean time, it was their duty to ascertain whether the present annuity might not be supplied from them, before they agreed further to load the consolidated fund. Mr. Lambe observed, that whenever the ministry came down to the House to propose a provision for any part of his Majesty's family, that House always acted with the greatest liberality. It appeared to him, however, an extraordinary contrast to this liberality, that when the House was anxious for the passing a bill to lighten in some degree the public burthens, by the suppression or regulation of useless sinecures and improvident reversions, this bill should always meet the most vexatious and pertinacious opposition from a quarter whence no such opposition ought to be expected. Mr. Whitbread regretted much the absence of his right hon. friend (Mr. Tierney) who had been detained so long in a Com to his subjects at once at a moment when the chancellor of the exchequer, by the measure which he proposed last night, confessed the difficulty of finding new sources of taxation, and when some (Mr. Huskisson and Mr. Rose) who had been in his confidence, whose knowledge of the subject was unquestionable, and who of late had laid the foundation of a strong claim to the confidence and approbation of the country, had urged the strong and indispensable necessity of retrenchment? When the right hon. gent. had resorted to the surplus of the consolidated fund, to furnish the ways and means of the year, a measure, which to say the least of it, he thought erroneous; was it shewing a proper regard to the dignity of the crown; was it dutiful or respectful to his Majesty, to advise him to come upon his subjects for this 7,000l. a year, when he himself had a fund out of which to pay it? He hoped that what his hon. friend (Mr. Lambe) had said, would sink deep into the hearts of the members of that House. All that was wanted, was, a delay til! the state of the Admiralty fund could be ascertained, and with that view he moved, That the debate be adjourned till this day mittee above stairs, as to be prevented from being able to attend in time to give his opinion on this subject. He would, however, wish to propose to the right hon. gent. to postpone the further progress of this bill for a few days, in order in the intermediate time to ascertain what the state of the fund arising from Droits of Admiralty actually was at present. Nobody objected to the annuity, and if it should be found necessary to have recourse to the consolidated fund, the last resource of the country, he for one should not object to its being charged upon that fund. But he would put it a little ad verecundium to the ministers, whether, even out of regard to the crown itself, they would not agree to the proposed delay. The right hon. gent. said, he did not refuse the production of the account required; but then he refused to grant it in time to consider, whether part of the fund might not be applied to the purposes of this bill. The House had heard of a sum of a million, granted out of this fund by his Majesty for the public service, and it was to be presumed from this paternal attention to the interests of his people, that he would not refuse any sums, that could be spared, for their relief, if he were pro-se'nnight. perly advised. They had also heard that his Majesty had, in his munificence, granted several large sums to some of his royal progeny; satisfied, no doubt, that the exigencies of their circumstances required such aids, and that if there had not been this fund in existence, his Majesty must have called for aid from his Parliament. It would be in the recollection of gentlemen, too, that out of this fund a sum of 25,000l. had been granted to sir Home Popham; and he also heard that money was granted for defraying the ex-ferred to the consolidated fund for the pences of the return of a governor-general from a distant settlement. By a particular act of Parliament, his Majesty was empowered to dispose by will of his private property. At the time that this act was passed, it certainly was not in the contemplation of the legislature that such a sum as eight millions could by possibility thus get into the possession and remain at the disposal of the crown. If this fund was not exhausted, he did not know any stronger claim that could be made upon it, than to make good this annuity. He would ask, then, whether it was wise, whether it was candid or affectionate to wards his Majesty, to advise him to overlook this fund, and for this purpose apply The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, that it was quite clear, and as far as he could perceive agreed on all hands, that the pension could not be charged upon those droits, but would most properly in the first instance be charged on the consolidated fund. He should repeat what he had said before more than once, that if the House, upon further examination into the nature and amount of this fund, should think proper to address his Majesty to grant 70,000l. or a much larger sum to be trans public service, it would be just as easy for them to do it after this question was disposed of; and it appeared to him, that such an address would go with a better grace at a future time, as it would not appear so directly like asking his Majesty to pay an equivalent for a grant which was supposed to proceed from the liberality of parliament. The House then divided on Mr. Whitbread's Amendment, Ayes 37; Noes 65; Majority 28. Mr. Tierney shortly after came into the House, and apologized for being absent after having given notice that it was his intention to oppose the bill. The fact was, that he was detained to a late hour in a committee up stairs, (the bullion committee), and that he imagined that another question (the finance resolutions), which was likely to take up some time, would come on before it. He gave notice now, that he should, on the first open day, move for a general account of the droits of admiralty; his object was to ascertain whether there was not a sum of 70,000l. disposable; and if there was, he intended to move an address to his Majesty to grant the said sum to the consolidated fund. He also wished to know from the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he intended to bring in the bill for providing for the interest of the loan. The Chancellor of the Exchequer answered, that he would, perhaps, bring it in to morrow. Mr. Tierney then expressed his intention to oppose the principle of the bill upon the second reading; as it appeared to him to be not only wrong, but a violation of faith to the public creditor, to throw this interest upon the consolidated fund. [FINANCE RESOLUTIONS SINECURE PLACES.] The House having, on the motion of Mr. Martin, resolved into a committee upon the third report of the finance committee, those who accepted them-that in truth a brand or mark was fixed upon them. Therefore, those offices instead of conferring honour, the people so much revolted against them, actually attached a stigma. To take away that stigma, then from the fair objects of public bounty, it was necessary that a fund should be created in lieu of those sinecures, and also to remove the anomaly which belonged to the very principle of having officers in the receipt of salaries without any duties annexed to them. After panegyrizing the system upon which our revenue was collected, which he contended was much cheaper than that of any other nation in Europe, the hon. gent. proceeded to press upon the attention of the committee the propriety of establishing every practicable degree of economy. It was with that view he particularly recommended the adoption of the resolution. He would not be understood to expect that by any measure of this nature the clamour of certain persons could be satisfied. Those persons were not in fact to be satisfied by any thing which that House could or ought to concede. This he was extremely sorry to see. But it never could be argued that, because certain factious persons put forward extraMr. Bankes rose and moved the reading vagant demands, that House should not do of the second resolution, which being read what was reasonable—that parliament accordingly, the hon. gent. expressed his should not accede to whatever was fit and intention of moving an amendment. It proper for the public welfare. These had been observed by many gentlemen, clamours had their flux and reflux, but it that sinecure offices ought not to be abo- was notorious that they had no influence lished until some other fund should be upon the proposition under discussion, created, from which his Majesty might be which, in fact, so far as regarded the abo enabled to make that provision for long lition of sinecures, had its origin before and efficient public services which those such clamours were heard. He trusted, occasions afforded. Now, the object of therefore, that whatever might be the conhis proposed amendment would be to cou- duct of the factious, the Committee would ple the abolition of sinecures with the sub- never lose sight of the propriety of constitution of such a fund-and in doing so, sulting the wishes and cultivating the be hoped to render the measure of aboli- good disposition of the sound and rational tion more acceptable to his right hon. part of the community, who would, he had friend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, no doubt, be materially conciliated by the and to the committee. Indeed, he thought adoption of a measure so long and so unthat the substitution would take away all animously called for-that of the aboliobjections to the abolition, while there tion of sinecure offices. It would be precould be no doubt of its being more agree-posterous to oppose to such a desirable able, not only to the country, but to such meritorious officers as were entitled to reward. For the real fact was, that sinecures had fallen so much into disgrace, perhaps from their misapplication, but certainly from a general suspicion that they were disposed of rather according to the influence of favour than of merit, that a certain degree of disrepute attached to measure any idea of reverence for old esta. blishments, for it was impossible that these sinecure offices could have been originally established without any duties attached to them. The committee would in fact only repair the injuries of time by abolishing such offices. He therefore hoped for a general acquiescence in his motion, which was grounded upon the principle of mode |