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to the captors. Of the droits, however, which had accrued during the present war, very large sums had been given to the captors, and at one time a million was given to the public service. He still thought that as it seemed to be admitted by his Majesty's ministers, that there was a considerable disposable fund derived from those droits, the consolidated fund should be indemnified from thence for the additional burthen which was now to be thrown on it.

would be thought of such a sum being devised by will to persons out of the country? In the year 1763, his Majesty acted with respect to those droits of admiralty in a manner that he wished his ministers had now advised him to act. He then gave up the whole of it to the public service. An hon. friend of his (sir F. Burdett) had on a former occasion made a motion respecting those droits, and had intended, if it was not for the circumstances which prevented his attendance in parliament, to renew the subject in the Mr. R. S. Dundas maintained the strict course of this session. Many sums had, right of the crown to dispose of this fund it was true, been granted out of the civil in any manner that it might think proper. list, and among these sums was a grant of As to the fixed allowance which has been 25,000l. to sir Home Popham. When it made to support the King's civil list, it was considered how this House had, over had been always found insufficient, as it and over again, assisted the civil list; was impossible that the same sum of mowhen it was considered how they had,ney could now support the same estabover and over again, made the most libe- lishment, which was reckoned necessary ral provisions for every branch of the to support the due splendour of the throne royal family, and even what large sums it about half a century ago. The consehad voted to pay their debts, he thought quence was, that frequent applications had that no unnecessary burdens ought now to been made to parliament to defray the be laid upon the country, but that the debts necessarily contracted in the maindroits of admiralty ought to be applied tenance of the civil list. He thought the in the present instance. droits of admiralty might best be applied in supplying the deficiencies of the civil list, and preventing future embarrassments, or applications to parliament.'

Mr. Huskisson said, that notwithstanding the commutation by which his Majesty received a fixed income in lieu of the crown lands, there were many other branches of his revenue which he held jure corona which he had not given up. Amongst them were the 44 per cents. and, as he conceived, the droits of the admiralty. Nevertheless, if there did appear any specific fund which was adequate to the payment of the pension, the House might well take that into their consideration before they threw the burthen on the consolidated fund. When the House agreed to transfer the pension of 9,000l. of the late duke of Gloucester to the consolidated fund, it was from the consideration that the 4 per cents. on which it was previously settled, would not secure the regular payment of the pension; but if there could at that time have been pointed out a large fund, such as the droits of adimiralty were at present, it was by no means clear that the House would have agreed to transferring it to the consolidated fund. If there was a large disposable fund in the hands of the crown, ministers ought to advise his Majesty to apply part of it to the purpose stated in the motion. In 1763, it was true that the whole of these droits were given to the service of the public generally, but nothing was given

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Mr. Brougham represented it as a most dangerous doctrine and unconstitutional in principle, to permit the crown to amass large sums of money, over which the parliament should have no controul. It would have a tendency to make the crown independent of the parliament. A King might go to war for droits of admiralty, It was no imaginary case. Charles the second had gone to war for the purpose of obtaining the Smyrna fleet. Parliament should always have the right to know what were the sums composing this fund, and how they were applied. He agreed that some provision should be made for the duke of Brunswick; but the question was, whether the country was to be called upon to supply it from its own pocket, at such a time, or whether it would not be better to resort to the alternative proposed? He would support the motion, even if there were no other grounds to go upon than the breaking in upon the droits of admiralty, which had in a former case tended in a great measure, to plunge the country into a war, the most disgraceful and disadvantageous to it.

Mr. G. Johnstone said, that the droits of admiralty had been considerably in

1

creased in value since the change with respect to the emoluments of the captors of prizes had taken place; and that, in consequence of that change, the sum could be easily reimbursed to the consolidated fund. The liberality of the House had been fully evinced by the various grants that had been made to those who had not claims of so strong a nature as the duke of Brunswick; and, from whatever fund the sum would be eventually paid, he was convinced that that liberality would suffer no diminution.

Mr. Hawkins Browne agreed in the principle of not increasing the burdens of the people, but conceived that the droits of admiralty were not the fund which should be meddled with upon the occasion of the grant to his serene highness. He conceived that, perhaps, if the right hon. hon. gent. (Mr. Tierney) had asked for the full amount of the droits of admiralty, his purpose would be satisfactorily answered.

Mr. Tierney said, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had only made one or two objections to the motion, and those objections were utterly destitute of arguments. He had never seen a greater instance of the uneasiness of a person who wished to get rid of a question, and who could not succeed, than the right hon. gent. exhibited. The House had been asked for a grant of 7,000l. per annum, that grant was agreed to, and it was observed, that there existed means of a reimbursement of that sum; the House was then surely very pardonable in seeking the means by which such reimbursement should be effected. If the crown possessed a capability of repayment, that addition of burden should be taken from the people. It had been said that his conduct in the framing of his address, was such, as to give offence to the crown. It was no such thing. If the crown would not speak to him, he would speak to the crown. If ministers would not interfere upon the occasion, in suggesting to his Majesty the proper mode of conduct to be observed, he would himself make such suggestions; but no disrespect was by any means intended to his Majesty. It had been said, that if a general address for the application of the droits of admiralty to the relief of the public burthens had been moved, more certain success would have been the consequence. He certainly agreed in that assertion; and he would lay aside his present motion, if he was certain of the

right hon. gent.'s aid and support upon a proposition to that effect. The cases of the duchess and duke of Brunswick were very different; and if the former was allowed most liberally, that was no reason that the latter should meet with the same treatment. He was firmly convinced that the crown was possessed of money sufficient to reimburse the consolidated fund; and therefore was determined to take the sense of the House upon the question. The House then divided, when there appeared.

For the motion............86
Against it.......

.103

Majority.........-17.

HOUSE OF LORDS.

Tuesday, May 15.

[GAS LIGHT BILL.] The Earl of Lauderdale objected, that from the largeness of the capital of this company a complete monopoly would be insured to them, to the detriment of those persons who had expended considerable sums of money in making experiments, and those who at any future period might make experiments, It would also be seen by the evidence relative to this bill, that in the quarter where this mode of lighting had been tried, a most disgusting nuisance had been created, and it was to be observed that, under the provisions of the bill, if any district or parish made application for this mode of lighting, that the company were to have a monopoly in such district or parish for 14 years, and to be at liberty to open their streets to lay down their pipes: ceiving, therefore, that this would be in fact a very improper monopoly, and that a great nuisance would be generated, his lordship moved to postpone the second reading for three months.

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The Duke of Athol contended, that the capital of the company being limited to 200,000l. there was no danger of a monopoly; as to the evidence referred to by the noble lord, he urged that it could not regularly be commented upon, as there was no evidence before the House relative to the bill. With respect to the objection of nuisance, he conceived that if any nuisance existed, there were legal means of getting rid of it. All he wished at the present moment was, that the bill should be allowed to go to a committee, in order that their lordships might hear evidence respecting it, and thus be enabled to form an opinion upon its merits.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

The House divided on the question, that I so, was, that on attentively reading the the word 'now' stand part of the question. papers to which he had alluded, he did Contents 32. Non-Contents, 12. The think that Mr. Erskine had not complied bill was then read a second time and with the letter of his instructions; and he committed. also thought that any individual by whom those papers alone were read would be justified in entertaining the opinion that Mr. Erskine had not acted up to the spirit of his instructions. Yet he for his own part altogether agreed in the vindication of his conduct, which had been offered by Mr. Erskine in a dispatch which was now published, but which had not been before the public last year; and thought, that the spirit of the instructions taken altogether had been complied with. But the instructions themselves appeared to him to have been drawn up and framed without a due attention to the power vested in the executive government of America, and without adverting to the specific provisions of an act of congress. Moreover, if the right hon. gent. had continued in office he should perhaps have thought it right to make some motion upon these papers; because it appeared to him that another favourable opportunity of placing this country and America upon that amicable footing upon which it was most desirable they should stand, had been lost by the total rejection of Mr. Erskine's_arrangement, by the right hon. gent. But as he understood the negociation between this country and America to be still pending, and that it had been conducted lately in a manner perfectly smooth and satisfactory, and the more satisfactorily because that right hon. gent. was not in office, on public grounds he should think it unadvisable to agitate any question relative to America at present. And as for Mr. Erskine he did not think it necessary any specific motion should be made, as his vindication of himself was now before the world. He

Tuesday, May 15. [DISPUTE WITH AMERICA.] Mr. Whitbread seeing the late Secretary of State for foreign affairs in his place, would beg leave to say a few words with regard to the opinion he had formed upon the correspondence between that right hon. gent. and Mr. Erskine relative to the late negociation with America which had been laid before the House in the present session of parliament, and he trusted to the indulgence of the House to be allowed to state it, although he certainly did not intend to conclude with any motion. The statement made by that right hon. gent. (Mr. Canning) had been, that Mr. Erskine had not only not acted in conformity with, but had acted in direct contradiction to his instructions; and in another letter he had asserted, that Mr. Erskine had departed widely both from the letter and the spirit of his instructions. This from every thing which he then knew, he had taken the liberty to question, and then the right hon. gent. said, that the question as relating to himself was neither more nor less than whether he had told a direct falsehood in the face of Europe and the world. To this he could answer, that no such charge had ever been made, or ever insinuated, against the right hon. gent. He

was not aware

The Chancellor of the Exchequer spoke to order. If the hon. gent. had no motion to submit to the House, such observations as those which he was making were calculated only to produce an irregular dis-imagined the right hon. gent. would be

cussion.

Mr. Whitbread allowed, that if the House stood on their precise forms, he would be precluded from making any further observations; but he threw himself on their indulgence, to which he conceived himself to be the more entitled, as his object was to shew why he was desirous, on a consideration of all the circumstances of the case, that no motion should be made on the subject to which he had called their attention. He presumed that the House would grant to the right hon. gent. (Mr. Canning) a similar liberty in reply. What he would say, if he were permitted to do

satisfied also with his own exposition of his own case; if otherwise, it was com petent to him or to any other member to make such motion he might think proper on the subject.

Mr Canning appealed to the justice of the House, on the extraordinary situation in which he had been placed by the conduct of the hon. gent. On the last day before the holidays, the hon. gent. (baring before in no obscure terms hinted at the same thing), declared that he (Mr. C.) had asserted that which was not true when he had stated that Mr. Erskine had acted contrary to his instructions. After such

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official disapprobation from those whom he most loved, if they appeared to him deservedly to incur it; nor had he ever gone out of his way to express that disapprobation, because the individual on whom it fell was of political opinions different from his own. He was confident that on that ground his character and conduct while in office would bear the strictest examination. When so many months had elapsed after the return of Mr. Erskine during the whole of which time the grossest misrepresentations had been circulated against him, and when the documents, by which the whole affair was elucidated, lay on the table, was it just that he (Mr. Canning) should be left without either an opportunity of publicly refuting it, or a retractation of the charge? On the one hand, the discussion would enable him himself to prove the fallacy of the accusation preferred against him, or on the other hand a frank avowal of that fallacy by his accusers would prove to the world how unfounded had been the charge. He returned the hon. gent. therefore no thanks for the little mixture of candour in his observations. The fact was that the hon. gent, could not, dare not, maintain his original position. He was ready to meet him upon the subject whenever he chose. That was the sort of reception which he gave to the overture of the hon. gent. to pass the matter by without debate. If the hon. gent. should change his mind, he repeated that he was ready to meet his ar guments whenever he might chuse to advance them; or the arguments of any other friend of the hon. gent. in question, respecting whom he trusted that no disrespectful expression had escaped him, although he had felt it his duty to advise his Majesty to recal a minister who had so directly disobeyed his instructions. He should have given his Majesty expressly the same advice, had that minister been connected with him by the closest ties of friendship or consanguinity. He begged pardon of the House for having presumed to trespass so long upon their indulgence, but trusted they would recollect that the charge which had been preferred against him was of a most serious nature. He had been accused not of official miscon duct merely, but of conduct which, if it could be established, would prove him wholly unworthy of that office, the func tions of which it would in that case appear he had most grossly misused. Whether the hon. gent. brought forward 3 X

a declaration he thought, that he was intitled in fairness to expect, either that the hon. gent. should support his declaration by arguments and facts in a manly manner, or that if convinced of its fallacy, he should come forward and candidly disavow it. In stating it to have been represented by that hon. gent. that his assertions were not true, he had never meant to say, that that expression was applied to him personally, or in a way that affected him as a gentleman, but only in his official capacity, most importantly as affecting the interests and character of the country, and also in another view (which he should be one of the last to disregard), as traducing the character of another individual. That individual he had neither traduced nor misrepresented. He had affirmed, and armed with the documents on the table he would fearlessly re-affirm, that Mr. Erskine had acted in direct contradiction to his instructions, and had deviated both from their letter and from their spirit. Mr. Erskine had not only done that which he was directed not to do, but from that which he had been directed to do, he had abstained. This he was ready to establish by argument, whenever Mr. E.'s friends or his own accusers would give him an opportunity of doing so. If the hon. gentleman opposite were not more satisfied with the documents than his speech that night showed him to be, he would tell him explicitly that he would accept of no compromise. Labouring as he had done so long and so anxiously under circumstances of peculiar provocation, he had carefully avoided using a single word of unkindness or disrespect towards the individual who was the subject of the present observations. His business with Mr. Erskine was merely with a gentleman acting under him in his official capacity. So far was he from permitting any political differences to induce him to advise the recal of Mr. Erskine, or the substitution of another minister in America, that he appealed to Mr. Erskine himself, whether those who felt most warmly for his interest and honour could have treated him with more kindness, attention and indulgence? But whether Mr. Erskine, to whom he was a stranger, or the dearest friend that he had upon earth, were involved in a question connected with the public interest, committed to his care, he never could allow any private consideration to interfere with the faithful and conscientious discharge of his public duty. He had never withheld his

VOL. XVI.

the question, or left it where it was, he trusted that he should now stand equally justified in the opinion of the House and the country.

submit to the consideration of the Committee a general statement of the supplies and ways and means of the year. In doing this, and laying before the Committee, as it was his duty to do, a detailed exposition of the financial circumstances of the country, he should not confine what he had to say to the bare statement of the revenue, but at the same time exhibit a general view of the trade and commercial situation of the country. The ac counts on the table, which had been refered to the Committee for consideration, would, he was persuaded, in this respect be found highly interesting in their general results, and particularly applicable to the subject to which he was now to draw the attention of the Committee.

He

Mr. Whitbread declared that he had offered no compromise whatever to the right hon. gent. His thanks he did not expect, and he was surprised at his allow ing that he (Mr. W.) had mixed even a little candour in his observations. He should not bring forward any motion, on the subject, because he did not think that Mr. Erskine required any more to be said in his vindication. But if the right hon. gent. feeling that his own conduct required further defence, and regardless of the existing circumstances between the two countries, was disposed to submit to the House any proposition upon the sub-thought that they would not only afford ject he should always be ready to meet it. the best means of forming a correct judgMr. Morris begged to say a few words, ment how far the country was able to although he was aware that a regard to support its present burthens, but that they the forms of the House would render it would be the best answer to those who impossible for him to go into the subject were accustomed to take gloomy views of as he wished. He expressed his surprise the financial situation of the country. that the right hon. gent. had treated the They would shew, that so far from there question as having at any time assumed being a reason to apprehend any thing the aspect of a personal difference between like decay or failure in our finances, the that right hon. gent. and Mr. Erskine. more we looked at them, the more rea He had never so understood it. He cerson would we have to be satisfied with tainly did always consider that the right their growing improvement and prospe hon. gent. ought to have laid on the table rity. It would be highly satisfactory to all the documents upon this subject, or know, that such had been the produce of thatour revenues in that year-that very year when men of great weight and authority in that House anticipated a failure, that instead of the deficit they apprehended, there had actually been a very consider able increase. Those points however he should not then stop to examine as he should have occasion to dwell on them at more length in another part of his speech as more immediately connected with the ways and means. He should, therefore, without further preliminary observation proceed to state the supplies already voted and also the ways and means by which he proposed to cover them.

Mr. Canning spoke to order. There was a regular charge preferred against him of official misconduct in a discussion studiously divested of the forms of debate. He had never treated the question as one of a personal nature between Mr. Erskine and himself, but

The Speaker here interposed, and prevented any further conversation. He expressed his hope that what had occurred would induce the House in future not to entertain any discussion without a distinct question before them, and would convince them of the practical wisdom of their own rules upon that subject.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Wednesday, May 16. [BUDGET.] The House having resolved into a Committee of Ways and Means, to which were referred the account of the Public Debt, and the other Public Accounts usually referred to that Committee preparatory to the Budget,

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Unprovided ditto last year.... 441,417 20,337,000
Ordnance

The Chancellor of the Exchequer rose to Miscellaneous (about)

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4,411,000

2,000,000

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