[NAVY ESTIMATES.] The House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply. Mr. Croker proposed a vote of 1,165,000l. 15s. 11d. for the ordinaries of the navy. Sir Charles Pole asked, whether the present number of seamen, amounting to 146,000 might not be reduced to 130,000? If such a reduction should be deemed eligible, he proposed that old seamen who had served from 18 to 20 years, should be discharged. He wished that these estimates had been referred to a select Committee, as had been done sometimes, in order to ascertain with more exactness what reductions might be made. He found they had considerably increased since last year upon the civil establishment of the navy. He contrasted the great advance which had taken place in the salaries of the civil department, with the slow progress, and in some respects diminution of the pay of the military department. As an instance, he mentioned the lieutenants of the 1st and 2d rates, whose pay was 6s. a day in 1694, and was still the same, subject to the deduction of the income tax. The increase altogether in the civil department appeared to be 500,000l. He thought the men engaged in harbour duty might be discharged. He also suggested that a saving might be made by reducing part of the press gangs. Mr. R. Ward was surprised that the hon. admiral should say, that there was an addition of 500,000l. on the civil department of the navy estimates above those of last year. On the contrary, the addition on the whole of the estimates did not amount to much more than half the sum. In a great many articles there was a considerable diminution, on account of so many ships of the line having been launched last year, which rendered it unnecessary to build many more this there was also a diminution in the expence of the sca fencibles, and in the article of transports. There was so much additional business in the civil service that the increase of salary was necessary, but the increase here was not above 20,000l. There was also some advance in the office of the admiralty records, which had been admirably regulated by the exertions of Mr. Pindus. There was an increase necessarily in the victualling department, owing to the excess in the army victualling. He contended against the policy of reducing the navy, which was at present in so much splendour, and which would, he hoped, always be the terror of our ene

year;

mies.

The fleets of Spain were in a dubious state, and the largest fleet might be raised at Antwerp-and this might be more dangerous than any other. There was an addition of enemies in the North, and it was necessary to have our fleets there to protect our trade. The fleet of Russia was increasing, and the fleet of Sweden might be turned against us, though there was no sentiment of hostility from that country at present. The Danish fleet was also to be considered. All these considerations shewed the necessity of keeping up the English fleet. We must be able to cope with the navies of the whole world. Besides those regularly employed, there ought to be a body of reserve; the advantages of which had been already felt, in the case of the Copenhagen expedition, in the facility with which ships had been sent to the Tagus, and in bringing off the army of sir J. Moore. The possibility of a rupture with America, was also to be considered, though he did not know that there were any symptoms of that at present. In every view it was proper to keep up the establishment.

Captain Parker was adverse to the reduction of the harbour duty men, and to the discharge of old seamen. It might be very injurious to the service. The impress was serviceable, not only in procuring men, but in preventing desertion.

Lord Cochrane rose and said: Sir; Indisposition has prevented me from submitting to the consideration of this House, those matters respecting which I had given notice, and the same cause has disabled me from paying that attention to the Navy Estimate, which I should have done, and which I might have done, had this estimate, completed in Feb. 7, been printed and delivered to us in proper time, instead of a few days ago, for which, however, I suppose, there was some weighty reason. Notwithstanding these disadvantages, enough will probably appear, to shew the nature of the thing, and first, as to the manifest injustice of the pension list.—An admiral, worn out in the service, is superannuated at 410l. a year, a captain of the navy at 219.; while the clerk of the ticket office retires on 700l.-The widow of admiral sir Andrew Mitchell has one third of the allowance to the widow of a commissioner of the navy.-Martha, widow of admiral Bourmaster, 751.; Mary Hammond, a commissioner's widow, 3001. Elizabeth, widow of captain Blake, 604;

Elizabeth, widow of commissioner Lane, 300 1.-Four daughters of the gallant captain Courtenay, 121. 10s. each; daughter of admiral sir Andrew Mitchell, 251.; two, daughters of admiral Epwort, 251. each; daughter of admiral Keppel, 251.; Elizabeth, daughter of captain Mann, who was killed in action, 251.; four children of admiral Moriarty, 25l each.-Thus 13 daughters of admirals or captains, several of whose fathers fell in the service of the country, receive from the gratitude of the nation a sum less than dame Mary Saxton, the widow of a commissioner. This pension list is not formed on comparative rank or merit, length of services, or any rational principle, but appears to be dependant on parliamentary influence alone; for lieutenant Ellison, who lost his arm, is allowed 911. 5s.; and captain Johnson, who lost his arm, has only 45l. 12s. 6d.— Lieutenant Arden, who lost his arm, has 911. 58.; lieutenant Campbell, lost his leg, has 401.; and poor lieut. Chambers, who lost both his legs, has only 80l. while sir A. S. Hammond retires on 1,500l. per ann. -The brave sir Samuel Hood, who lost his arm, 500l.; while the late secretary to the Admiralty retires, in full health, with a pension of 1,500l.-To speak less in detail, 32 flag officers, 22 captains, 50 lieutenants, 180 masters, 36 surgeons, 23 pursers, 91 boatswains, 97 gunners, 202 carpenters, 41 cooks, cost the country, 4,0287. less than the netproceeds of the sinecures of lord Arden, 20,3584; Camden, 20,5861.; Buckingham, 20,6931-All the superannuated admirals, captains and lieutenants, have but 1,0121. more than earl Camden's sinecure. All that is paid to all the wounded officers of the British navy and to the wives and children of those dead or killed in action, does not amount, by 2141., to as much as lord Arden's sinecure alone, 20,3587.-What is paid to the mutilated officers themselves, 11,4081. 16s. is but half as much.-Is this justice? Is this the treatment which the officers of the navy deserve at the hands of those who call themselves his Majes ty's government? does the country know of this injustice? Will this too be defended? If I express myself with warmth trust in the indulgence of the House; I cannot suppress my feelings. Should thirty one commissioners, commissioners wives, and clerks, have 3,8991. more among them, than all the wounded of ficers of the navy of England? I find,

upon examination, that the Wellesleys receive from the public 34,1297., a sum equal to 426 pair of lieutenants' legs, calculated at the rate of allowance for lieutenant Chambers' leg.-Calculating by the pension for captain Johnson's arm, viz. 451, lord Arden's sinecure is equal to the value of 1022 captain's arms.-The marquis of Buckingham's sinecure alone, in the net, will maintain the whole ordinary establishment of the victualling departments at Chatham, Dover, Gibraltar, Sheerness, Downs, Heligoland, Cork, Malta, Mediterranean, Cape of Good Hope, Rio de Janeiro, and leave 5,466%. in the treasury.--Two of these comfortable sinecures, would victual the officers and men serving in all the ships in ordinary in Great Britain: viz. in 117 sail of the line, 105 frigates, 27 sloops, 50 hulks. -Three of them would maintain the

dock yard establishments at Portsmouth and Plymouth; and, by the addition of a few more, would amount to as much as the whole ordinary establishments of the royal dock yards at Chatham, Woolwich, Deptford, and Sheerness; and the sinecures and offices executed wholly by deputy would more than maintain the ordinary establishment of all the royal dock yards in the kingdom. To return to this pension list: I observe that pensions given by the Whigs to commissioners, clerks, and others, whom they forced out to make room for their friends, amounted in 13 months, to about 1,5081. more than the present administration have, by this list, given away in nearly three years that have elapsed since-And the right honourable gentleman, (Mr. Ponsonby,) who, two nights ago made, so pathetic an appeal to the good sense of the people of England against those whom he was pleas ed to call designing men and demagogues, actually receives for having been 15 months in office, a sum equal to nine admirals, who have spent their lives in the service of their country; three times as much as all the pensions given to all the daughters and children of the admirals, captains, lieutenants, and other officers who have died in indigent circumstances or been killed in the service! and as much as would pay the officers and men employed in the fifteen holks of the line in ordinary.-From the minute expences noticed in this estimate, viz. for oiling clocks, killing rats, and keeping cats, I should have supposed that great care was taken to have it very cor

rect. It was, therefore, with much surprise, I found the name of my worthy and respected grandmother, the widow of the late captain Gilchrist of the navy, continued on the list, as receiving 1001. per annum, though she ceased to exist 8 years ago!-I shall dwell no longer on this subject than just to notice, that while all this profuse waste of the public money is going on, the builders in our naval yards, on whose ability and attention so much depends, have only 7201. per annum salary, that is only 201. more than a retired clerk of the ticket office. The petty perquisite of a silver cup, given to them when they launched, and thereby added a ship to the British navy, was taken from them as a saving to the a saving to the nation, by the mischievous and contemptible admiralty of 1802. Such are the pretended savings, by which, when any are made, the country is duped.-Were there a prospect of success, I could point out to a committee of the House some savings worthy attention.-The canvas department (though by no means free) yet, least supported by political influence. is probably that in which the abuses might be most easily corrected. I will undertake to prove that, by adopting canvas of a better quality, a saving equal to one-fourth of the British navy may be made-a saving, equal to the additional income tax imposed by the Whigs. The remaining three-fourths of the ships will be more effectual than the whole, their velocity will be increased upwards of half a mile in seven miles; and thus every one will be enabled to capture those vessels which at present escape from them all; as beside its bad quality, the enemy know our ships of war from foreign ships by the colour of the canvas, consequently run away the moment they perceive our black sails rising above the horizon; a circumstance to which they generally owe their safety, even more than to its open texture. I have observed the meridian altitude of the sun through the fore topsail, and by bringing it to the horizon through the foresail, ascertained the latitude as correctly as otherwise I could have done. Any man who knows black from white can distinguish the difference, as you will perceive by the colour of the samples which I now shew you.-This (the white) is used by the Spaniards, Portuguese, Dutch, Russian, Danish, American, in fact by all ships except ours. The difference of price has been stated as an ob

VOL. XVI.

ject, (contemptible idea!) The paltry increase of cost will be more than compensated by the superior wear of the canvas, independent of its strength, on which, consequently, depends the safety of the ship, and the preservation of the lives of all on board. I shall, no doubt, hear it urged, that a remedy is about to be applied; and so it has been ever since I can remember but remedies and redress at public boards are sought in vain; and so it is with respect to the hardships noticed by an honourable admiral, imposed on old and wounded sailors by the harbour duty; which is justly considered by them as oppressive in the highest degree, more grievous than all the other hardships to which they are subject.-Should the latter days of a life, spent in the service of the country, be those in which the severest duty is imposed, and that too, when wounds and infirmities have rendered men unequal to the task? One person who contends for its continuance says it is a laborious duty, and must be executed. This reason is conclusive, in my mind, why it should not be imposed on those, whose infirmities have rendered them unequal to the task. No good conduct, or character from his captain, can, under the present system, free an old seaman from this misery. I well remember the sad case of William Farley, an infirm petty officer; a man of respectable character, in my own ship, who, I think, had been in 13 general actions, and about 20 years in the service; he was sent to be invalided, that, by a change, his impaired health might be restored, and that he might pass his latter days in peace. He was condemned to harbour duty, but obtained leave to return to his ship. After a time, being still unable to do the smallest duty in the ship, he was again surveyed: the same decision passed. Whether this happened a third time, I do not recollect; but of this I am certain, that he died on board off Brest. My gunner's mate (I think his name was Ford) was invalided too for this heart-breaking service, and such was his abhorrence of it, that, by permission of the lords of the Admiralty, he procured two substitutes, who cost him 901. a sum equal to all that with the greatest economy he could save in ten years from his pay. Is such a recompence for services? If meant as a benefit, as asserted by one officer, it should be optionable and not compulsive. If grievances exist, they should be examined into and redressed,

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that is the mode to prevent bad consequences or complaints. We have heard much about " deluding" the public; an unfounded statement can injure only the individual who makes it. These subjects are worthy of being examined by a Committee of the House, or a deputation; such as was ordered lately to Sombrero.-Although perhaps not immediately arising out of that part of the Naval Estimate, which is before us, I may be permitted to ask why are not the Ships abroad paid, as well as the Army? What inconvenience would result? We scruple not to export large sums for other purposes, less beneficial to the country than the exertions of our seamen, whose money is annually included in the Naval Estimate, although it is not paid to them.-The petty officers and seamen in the East and West Indies, Cape of Good Hope, Mediterranean, America, in fact, every where abroad, do not receive one shilling of pay until they are permitted to return to England, often after an absence of twelve or fifteen years!The Boston's crew, who formed one half of my ship's company, joined the Pallas with nine years pay due, although the Boston had been all that time within about fourteen days sail of England! I should like to know where all this money is lodged?

Mr. Wellesley Pole said, that the noble lord who had just sat down, had made one of the most extraordinary speeches, that he believed had ever been delivered in that House, upon the question of the Navy Estimates. The noble lord had occupied the time of the Committee with discussing a variety of topics, which had no connection with the points then under consideration, but which it seemed of late to be thought necessary to bring before the public on all occasions, and which, indeed, had been so often obtruded upon the House, that they had become quite trite and hackneyed. He had represented ministers as totally regardless of economy, and as distributing public rewards, not for public service, but for the gratification of party feeling, and for the promotion of party purposes. He certainly should not follow the noble lord through all his deviations from the subject then under consideration, but he would, with the permission of the Committee, make some observations upon the very few remarks which had fallen from the noble lord upon the real question before the committee. The noble lord had discussed the navy

pension list in a manner that did not appear to him to be very candid. The noble lord had stated different cases from the pension list, but he had omitted what in fairness he ought to have mentioned, viz. the dates of the cases which he had quoted, because, the Committee must be aware that a considerable variation had taken place in the value of money, and that what would have been a considerable provision thirty years ago, certainly was not so at present; but the noble lord had cited all the cases as if they were of recent date, and as if the present administration were answerable for them all. He would venture, however, to contend that no instance could be found in which the present board of Admiralty had not in granting rewards to officers for wounds which they had received in the service, or in providing for the families of deceased of ficers, gone as far as they were justified by precedent, and in many instances he would take upon him to say, higher pensions had been lately given than had ever been known before. The Admiralty acted in all cases upon one regular uniform system; when an application was made, they ordered an investigation, and proceeded according to certain rules laid down apportioning the reward according to the rank and suffering of the person who claimed the reward, without regard to any other consideration. For the accuracy of his assertions upon this subject, he would appeal to any naval officer in the House, and he was sure that not one of them would assert that the present or any board of Admiralty, had ever suffered their decisions upon cases of this kind to be influenced by feelings of a political nature. If the Admiralty did in any case deviate from the strict letter of their duty, it proceeded from their anxiety to make as large an allowance, as the nature of the case would possibly admit. He would now, with the permission of the Committee, advert to some of the cases which had been mentioned by the noble lord. One of them was that of captain Dickson, whose pension had been represented as by no means adequate to the sufferings he had undergone. The facts of this case were simply these; Captain Dickson when a lieutenant, had distinguished himself by a very gallant exploit, in which he was severely wounded. The Admiralty, upon that occasion did every thing that was in their power to do; they immediately promoted him to the rank of

however would consider, that the commissioners of the navy were chosen from the captains of the navy, of long standing, for their knowledge of the civil part of that service, and that when they accepted the office of a commissioner, they gave up the emoluments and the honours of their profession, and he was very sure that unless the temptation of a pension of 3001. a year for their widows, was held out to them, very few, indeed, who were qualified for the office, would consent to accept it. This was the ground upon which these pensions were granted, and he was convinced that the Committee would be of opinion that the money was wisely and beneficially laid out for the public service. With regard to those pensions which the noble lord considered as being too small, he begged leave again to state, that the present board of Admiralty was, upon all occasions, anxious to go as far as they possibly could in bestowing rewards, and upon some occasions they had availed themselves of particular precédents to grant more than was strictly justified by general usage. In addition to the pension list, the board of Admiralty had last year brought forward an estab lishment of a compassionate list, similar to that which had been formed for the army, thereby evincing the anxiety they felt for the comfort of the families of the officers of the navy. Mr. Pole observed, that the noble lord had brought all his observations upon the Pension List to this result; that it was clear that the merits of officers were left wholly out of the question, and that nothing but parliamentary interest and influence could gain any like justice for any officer, however meritorious his services might be; that all rewards were apportioned according to interest, and that the services of the navy were wholly overlooked, unless they were put forward by the parliamentary friends of the minister. Now this assertion of the noble lord's was most extraordinary. That such an accusation should be brought forward by the noble lord, astonished him more than the same sentiment could have done, coming from any other quarter. That noble lord, who was, in his own person, the strongest example that could be produced of the injustice of the accusation he had brought against the government. For he would venture to assert, without fear of being contradicted, that there never was an instance of more ample justice being done

commander, and they settled upon him his full pay as a lieutenant, and yet the noble lord had thought proper to select this case, as one affording ground of charge against the Admiralty. Another case mentioned by the noble lord, was that of admiral Moriarty's children, whose pensions he considered as insufficient; but when the Committee was informed of the real circumstances of this case, they would see that the noble lord had as little ground for censure, as he had in the former one. The noble lord knew that the widow or children of an admiral, were not entitled, strictly speaking, to any pension. It was found, however, upon admiral Moriarty's death, that his children had been left rather in distressed circumstances, and upon application a pension of 100l. per annum was granted to them. Larger pensions had certainly been granted, but that was where the admiral had fallen in action when employed in active service, or had been particularly distinguished. Admiral Moriarty did not die, while on active service, nor had he ever been at sea, as an admiral. Another circumstance with which the noble lord had found fault, and upon which he had laid particular stress, was, that sir Andrew Hammond had been permitted to retire upon 1,500l. per year. Mr. Pole said, that it really was with the utmost astonishment that he heard the noble lord urge this as a ground of charge. Sir Andrew Hammond was a veteran of fifty years standing. During the former part of that period he had been employed in the most active service; he had distinguished himself upon many occasions, and had deservedly acquired a high reputation. During the latter part of his professional life his time had been devoted to the service of his country, in discharging the duties of the civil part of the naval department. The noble lord himself, a professional man, could not be ignorant of the eminent and important services of sir Andrew Hammond as Comptroller of the navy, and therefore he ought to have been one of the last men to censure government for permitting this distinguished officer to retire after 50 years active and meritorious service, with a comfortable and honourable provision. The noble lord had also expressed great dissatisfaction at the amount of the pensions granted to the widows of the commissioners of the navy, which he considered as much too large. The Committee