crease there was no distinct notice ever pression upon his mind; an impression given to the house. With respect to the which should induce him to move, "That other, or contiguous seminary for the edu- the sum of 8,000l. be substituted for the cation of laymen, there was something in sum of 13,000l. at present inserted in the the formation of it very inconsistent; inas-resolution of the committee." much as the private subscriptions on which Sir John Newport.-Mr. Speaker; I feel the parliamentary grant for the education of myself able to convince the house, and I Catholic clergy was founded, were alto hope the hon. and learned gent. on the gether applied to its support; and thus points of difference between us, by advertthat annual grant, which was intended only ing to the acts of the Irish parliament as an aid, had now become the primary and which particularly referred to the catholic only fund for defraying the expences atten- seminary at Maynooth. If, indeed, the ding the education of the priesthood. In learned gent, had adverted to them, his the University of Dublin, provision was surprise that the demand for that instituonly made for 100 persons, including tion had increased from the average grant fellows, senior and junior scholars, and of 8,000l. would have been considerably sizers; whilst the public were called on to lessened; for he would have found, that the defray the expences of 200 Roman Catholic sums voted by the Irish parliament, varied professors and students in the seminary at almost every year from 8 to 9 and 10,0007. Maynooth. The question then was, to In fact, it would have been found, that, what description of persons was this pre- though the sum of 8,000l. was the averaged ference given? To a class of subjects, annual grant, yet the Irish parliament exwho, in their religious tenets, withhold from pressly recognized the principle of varying their lawful sovereign the admission of his the amount of the grant, according to supremacy. But, it had been contended, times and circumstances. With respect to that it was wise to prevent the Catholic the objection of the hon. and learned gent, priesthood from being exposed to the that the existence, much more the enlargemischiefs of a foreign education. It was to ment of the Maynooth seminary, was prehim rather extraordinary to lay so much judicial to the interests of the university of stress upon the place of education, when Dublin; this is an objection, which I by no the true and strong principle of danger and means admit; but before I enter on an inhostility, existed in the principles of that vestigation of that objection, I beg leave to religion, in which, whether at home or appeal to that liberal and manly spirit, abroad, they were uniformly educated. which marked the conduct of the Catholics, He wished to have an enquiry instituted when, in the petition alluded to by the hon. into the nature of their bye-laws alto- and learned gent., they strongly deprecated gether; there seemed to him a great mys- the intention of excluding their Protestant tery about this institution. There was no- countrymen from the right of being educathing like a visitorial inspection, no enquiry ted at the college of Maynooth. But what as to the mode of doctrine and discipline was the true state of the question, and how instilled and exercised on a number of youth, did the facts fully exemplify that it operated educated, if not in aversion, at least in in no such way? that the increase of Cahostility to the principles of the Protestant tholics at the university of Dublin had been establishment. He felt it his duty to impress progressive, and at this moment there was on the house, that, during the first years double the number than at any former peof this Catholic institution, the various riod. But it was not in the university of grants given by parliament were founded Dublin that the number of catholic stuon petitions. In the present case, he could dents had increased; many of the higher not say whether a petition was ever pre-orders of that body are to be found at the sented; but of this he was aware, that no universities in England at Edinburgh and committee was ever appointed to enquire Glasgow. But the hon. and learned gent, into the nature and extent of those plans, has said, it would have been a wiser policy upon which this application was grounded. to have enlarged the university of Dublin, It was by accident that he had taken notice and directed the public money expended of this grant on a former occasion; the on the Maynooth seminary, to meet the danger of admitting the growing principle, provision for the education of catholics and of this house giving encouragement to there. Enlarge that University, I answer, such permanent expences and increasing as you please, and you advance not one demands, had made a considerable im-step to the object of your wishes, And

the reason is obvious, because persons who not been generally admitted, if the dimiare to be instructed in the doctrine and dis- nution of catholic incumbents was not by cipline of the Romish faith, persons whose deaths and other causes very considerable, intention is to instruct their flocks in cer- then there might be some strong reasons tain articles of faith, and in the observance for not voting this branch of expenditure of certain religious ceremonies, will never without mature enquiry. But I am sure it be induced or forced to embrace a system is in the recollection of the house, that of education foreign from those intentions, when I proposed the miscellaneous serand which, though not hostile, are very dif- vices of this year, I did most particularly ferent from the opinions of those whom you advert to the increase of the Maynooth would select as their preceptors. Was the grant; and I was induced to make the obhouse to adopt such a line of policy, there servation, anticipating as I did, an opposiwould, under the present circumstances of tion, either to the principle or amount of the world, remain to the Catholic but one the grant, from a certain quarter in this alternative, namely, no education, no reli- house. I did think there were certain pers gious observance. They are, at present, sons disposed to quarrel with that measure. deprived, in a great degree, of foreign edu- But why quarrel with me, and not quarrel cation; the monasteries and institutions, with my predecessor in office? The objec which were formerly noted for those pur- tion, in consequence of its not being refersuits, have been entirely overturned. To red to a committee, as a money grant, was Flanders, Spain, and Italy, it is impossible formerly as valid as it can be now. for the Irish catholic to repair for educa-introduced nothing new, but have undeviation; and will not the house take advan- tingly adhered to the plan, which was pretage of such circumstances, and duly appre-viously chalked out. But I cannot conciate the great national benefits vhich must clude, without impressing on the house the arise from granting to them a domestic edu- small provision which is claimed for the cation? To restrict them to the University education of the priesthood of at least of Dublin, is, in other words, to compel them to a state of ignorance. The thing would be an utter impossibility; it is indeed extravagant to expect catholic acqui- Mr. Bankes objected to the additional escence in a scheme directly in defiance to grant now moved for, because its object the religion they profess; nor would the was to double the number of the students professors of Trinity college do their duty, for catholic priesthood in Ireland, and unless they performed that part, which the would consequently make the sum of 5,000, Catholic could not conscientiously approve. annual. He did not mean to say that the The hon. and learned gent. has asserted, catholic priesthood should be neglected; that the accounts, attaching to this branch on the contrary, he thought that it should of the miscellaneous expenditure, have be supplied, but, this should be done in a not been vouched. Had he thought pro- different manner from that now proposed, per to have extended his enquiries, he He was certain that the object could be ac would have found, that the commissioners complished by means of private contribuof the imprest accounts had as regularly tions. The house was aware that several certified this branch of services as any institutions were supported in this way, other. The two seminaries have been said and he could not discover why a catholic to be in a state of rivalry and hostility. If seminary might not be adequately support such rivalry and hostility exist, I am sure ed in like manner, The state had not they exist not with the Catholics. We been formerly made a party to such an inhave also been assured, that there is no stitution; he did not see, therefore, why it visitorial power, although it is distinctly should be incumbered at present, On the specified by the statute, that the lord chan-whole, he apprehended that this measure cellor and the judges of the country shall would have the effect of making popery ribe visitors of the morals and conduct of val the protestant establishment in Ireland. the scholars, as connected with civil policy; Mr. Grattan thought that in a question wisely and prudently abstaining from any of this kind, that involved the education of interference either in their religious doc-a great portion of the population of the trine, or discipline. If this measure had not been over and over discussed by the parliament of Ireland, if its eligibility had

three millions of people. Every principle of humanity and sound policy seems to me to call on this house for its acquiescence.

empire, any sect of Christians should be tolerated, as any one sect of religion was better than no religion at all. He was as

tonished to hear from an hon. gent. over opposite with respect to this measure of supthe way, that if the Roman Catholics of port to the Catholic priesthood. In my mind, Ireland were to be educated in the prin- it should be considered on the more enlarged ciples of their faith, it was little matter principles of national policy, as one of those whether they received that education in great and desirable means of connecting Ireland or in France. He was surprized to that religion, and the views of its professors hear this, because it went to say that with the interest of the state. The init was immaterial whether three millions fluence of the Catholic priests in that of the king's own subjects were edu- country, is well known to be extensive; cated at the expence and under the unfortunately, the events of the rebellion protection of his majesty's government, have too strongly exemplified this; and, or whether they should be pensioners on under such a conviction, I ask, is it not an the bounty of the emperor of France. inestimable benefit to have the care of From the jealousy hitherto entertained of their education committed to the govern the growth of Catholicism, that jealousy was ment? I do contend, sir, that such a meafounded not upon the mere doctrine; not sure is more than a necessary one; it is a against it as a religion; but against its great act of national policy, and even were foreign views, its foreign connections, its it not a legacy bequeathed by the Irish parforeign relations. But here the objection liament, I, for one, should give my vote, was changed; no danger was apprehended even at this time, for a similar esfrom those foreign relations; the Roman Ca-tablishment.

tholic might go abroad; but if kept at home, Mr. Wilberforce felt unaffected pain in if educated in the bosom of his country,then offering his sentiments upon this subject. he would be dangerous. Was this the doc-He wished, however, to be candidly untrine? If it was, let it only be repeated in derstood. He was not, he confessed, one order to be refuted. And if it was not; if of those men who entertained those large foreign connections were dangerous, why and liberal views on religious subjects, promote those views and strengthen those insisted upon with so much energy by the connections, by exiling the Roman Catholic right hon. gent. on the other side (Mr. for the purpose of educating him? As to Grattan); he was not so much like a cereconomy, 43,0007. had been just voted to tain ruler, of whom it had upon a late the Protestant charter-schools; 21,000l.vo-occasion been so happily said, that he was ted to the Foundling Hospital; that is, with an honorary member of all religions. He a ready hand, 21,000l. had been given to the could not help saying, that he thought the crimes of the depraved, and it was to be dis-institution in question would tend to discou puted whether 13,000l. was to be given to rage the growth of protestantism in Ireland. eulighten and to instruct three millions of a He must add, however, that he thought bold and hardy peasantry. Why so much the policy of this country's conduct towards freely to the Protestant, and, why dispute that part of the empire had been a most the little to the Catholic? Did not this do illiberal and ill-judged one. This dange that which was complained of? Did it not rous system of intolerance and persecution encourage the rivalry so much apprehended, had been too long preserved, and could by setting up one religion against another; not be too speedily abated. At the same and was it justice so to do? He had heard time, if protestantism was to be encouraged it apprehended that the institution might in Ireland, certainly the Maynooth semitend to encourage the Roman Catholic nary did not contribute to that most desiprofessors in that seminary, in the latent rable effect. As a sincere friend to the dissemination of disloyalty: was it re- Protestant religion, he was unwilling to exmembered that that seminary was subject tend an establishment which would prevent to the controul of visitors, the chancellor the propagation of that religion. He aland the judges of the land, and under their lowed it was not only criminal but cruel controul nothing in that way could be ap-in the highest degree to oppress or restrain prehended? He wished gentlemen to look the Catholic religion; but it was no opmore largely at the institution; it ori-pression not to favour it to the detriment ginated in wisdom, and would be pro- of the Protestant establishment. ductive of good. Lord Howick agreed in the principle Lord Mahon. Mr. Speaker; I can by of his hon. friend, that it was not only no means coincide with the opinion and criminal but cruel to persecute any reliconclusions of the hon. and learned geut.gious sect, but it was something very like

persecution to refuse the means of educa- | in Ireland, they treated it as it deserved, tion to the ministers of the catholic reli- and denounced exclusion from the faith gion. He was sure that his hon. friend against any who might be weak enough to would be the last man in the world to re-fall into the snare laid for their allegiance. commend the adoption of intolerance, This threat had the desired effect. But yet, when he proposed to withdraw the surely we should not leave his majesty's protection of the state from the catholic subjects of any description exposed to the priesthood, he recommended something temptations of the enemy; and what could like persecution. He was, from principle more effectually give us security in the preand conviction, a member of the esta- sent instance than the establishment of a blished religion, because he thought it the college for the education of the catholic. best and the purest on the face of the youth for priesthood? It had been proearth. He should not, however, think perly stated by his right hon. friend (Mr. himself a friend to the protestant establish- Grattan), that the sums granted for Protesment by recommending any measure which tant establishments were very considercould excite the envy or the hatred of the able; they were so; but what would na Catholics. He deprecated any attempt turally be the feelings of the Catholics if which might appear like an inducement parliament refused this trifling addition? to abandon the persuasion in which they They were men capable of being roused had been educated. It would be foolish by neglect or insult as well as others. to endeavour to force the Catholics into the They should not therefore be refused the Protestant church; but if this were im-protection of the state, and the participapracticable, what could be done, but to tion of the advantages of religious educaassist in making them Christians? Not only tion. Did they not contribute by their the policy, but the necessity of such a industry and property to the taxes of the measure, had been recommended by the state? Did they contribute nothing to the duke of Portland to the lord lieutenant of church establishment? Did they not pay Ireland in 1795, when his grace was se- tithes to the Protestant clergy? Did they not, cretary for foreign affairs. His lordship as well as any other description of subjects, then referred to the letter, and proceeded contribute to the wealth and security of to observe, that as the principle of the in- the empire? This could not be denied. stitution had been acquiesced in ever since Why then should they be excluded by the 1795, it was very strange that the present house of commons from religious educagrant should be resisted; for, as gentlemen tion, or, in other words, from Christianity had acknowledged the principle, it followed itself? He really thought the arguments that they could not refuse such additional advanced by the right-hon. and learned grants as times and circumstances might gent. (Mr. Perceval) on this subject, were render necessary, as the operation of that the most futile he had ever heard from very principle to which they had given him. He fully agreed with his hon. friend their assent. This was the argument ari- (Mr. Wilberforce), that we had too long sing from their own concession; but in neglected to take the situation of Ireland He cousupport of the argument he could instance seriously into consideration. a fact, which must, he was confident, es- fessed that we were deeply criminal for tablish the necessity for encouraging home the part we had acted; but he also hoped education for the catholic priests of Ire- that we should begin to discharge the long land. He was sorry he had not the docu-arrear against us. For his own part, be ment about him then, but the fact was, candidly owned, that he should feel that that Dr. Walsh, a priest of talents, who the proudest and happiest day of his exwas appointed head of the college esta-istence when he might be able to set `blished in Paris for the education of ca- about the work of making up for the time tholic priests, had used every influence, which had been mispent with respect to and all means in his power, to induce such Ireland. On the whole, if circumstances of the Irish catholic youth as were in Lis-made it necessary to have the grant larger, bon for the purpose of their education, to he should most cordially support it; of go to his college. He had offered them course, he gave his full assent to the reso not only education, but had opened to lution now proposed.-After a few words their view every temptation which he from Mr. May in favour of the grant,the or thought most likely to withdraw them from ginal resolution was then put and carried. the king and country. On a representa-The other resolutions were also severally tion of the matter to the catholic bishops put and carried. APPENDIX.

TO THE

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES.

VOL. VIII.

PARLIAMENTARY PAPERS.

stand, after deducting from them those por-III-TABLE SHEWING THE DIFFERENCE