Mr. Yorke asked, whether it was likely that the discussion would be brought forward upon the day mentioned by the noble lord, or whether it would be postponed any further?

to take into his custody the said captain | Irish mutiny bill, allowing catholics to sir Home Popham: and the said copy was hold a certain rank in the army, and this read. Ordered, that what Mr. Grenville clause it was now proposed to make genehath now communicated to the house, and ral. It was also proposed that all catholics also the said copy, be entered in the jour-in the army should be allowed the free exnal of this house. The house having, up-ercise of their religion. This was, no on the motion of sir J. Newport, resolved doubt, the practice already; but it was into a committee of ways and means, the understood that it would afford much more right hon. bart. proposed a resolution for satisfaction if it were made the law. In discontinuing certain duties, and enacting addition to these there were other clauses others in their room. He read over a list of less moment which it was proposed to of new duties which he proposed to impose, submit to the house. Such were the reanamely, upon every man whose house and sons which urged the noble lord to move land was above the value of 41. per an- a further postponement of this measure. num, and less than 77. one shilling and sixpence a year; if more than 77. and less than 10%, two shillings, if not liable to the > hearth tax; if more than 10l. and less than 40%, three-pence in the pound; and for every pound above 401., four-pence in the Lord Howick saw no reason to apprehend pound, if not liable to the window tax.that any farther delay would be necessary. He also stated his proposed scale of taxa- The noble lord moved, that the order for tion upon windows and hearths, and con- the second reading of this bill should be - cluded with observing, that it was the in- fixed for Tuesday se'nnight.--Ordered actention in all matters of personal taxation cordingly, to make bachelors pay double as much as [WESTMINSTER ELECTION PETITION.] married men. Upon the paper manufac- Mr. Sheridan rose, pursuant to notice, to tory the right hon. baronet proposed to move that the order for the appointment of impose a tax according to the number of a committee to consider the petition upon vats used by the manufacturer, instead of this subject should be discharged, with a mills, which were heretofore the criteria, view to move for the further postponement. and which had led to a great loss of reve-The right hon. gent. was so much of opinue. There were several duties hereto- nion, from what had passed when last this fore annual, which the right hon. baronet question was before the house, that a moannounced his intention of proposing to tion for further postponement would be imbe made permanent. In answer to a ques-mediately assented to if required, that he tion from colonel Barry, the right hon. ba-confessed he heard with considerable surronet stated, that an increased tax upon horses was meant to be imposed upon those who had four or more horses, unless for purposes of agriculture, but that the increase was not to go lower.-The resolution was then agreed to.

prise of the intention to oppose the motion, particularly on the part of the noble lord (Folkestone), by whom a similar proposition was last submitted to the bouse. Had he happened to have stood in the predicament of being unable to bring forward [MUTINY BILL-ROMAN CATHOLICS.] such a motion, be really thought that the Lord Howick moved the reading of the noble lord would have been ready to propose order for the second reading of the mu- it himself. At least he felt that he should tiny bill on Tuesday next, with a view, as be warranted, from the noble lord's former the noble lord stated, to move the post-language and conduct, in relying upon his ponement of this order to a future day. readiness to second him in this proposition. The propriety of this postponement in the Of the grounds of this reliance, and the absence of his right hon. friend (Mr. Wind-justice of his opinion, the house would be ham) would, he had no doubt, be readily able to judge from a short review of the admitted. But there were other objects history of the case. When the petition which rendered further delay necessary, in before the house was presented, which was order to afford time for the preparation of about the 23d of December, the first or some additional clauses which it was in-second day after any petitions could be retended to bring forward. It would be re-ceived, the noble lord announced the demembered by many members, that in the sire of the petitioners that the earliest day year 1793, a clause was inserted in the possible should be appointed for the bal

lot, and that they were ready at once to could aver from his own memory, but go before a committee. Accordingly the there were not less than 20 or 30 gentle13th of January was appointed. But, men present, who also heard the noble lord, notwithstanding the declaration of the no- and who could bear testimony to the noble lord, and the publicly proclaimed reso-ble lord's observation. The noble lord did lution of the petitioners, he received, not state upon that occasion, that when he many days afterwards, a note from the no- mentioned the 24th of Feb. he was not ble lord, stating, that it was through a aware that the circuit was so near, and that if mistake he presented the petition so soon, that day should in consequence become inand that the parties were not ready to go convenient, there could be no objection to into the investigation on the day originally a farther postponement. This declaration appointed. The noble lord, therefore, re- the noble lord was understood to have quested his consent to a further postpone-made by several friends near him. The ment, as a matter of personal accommoda-house, he had no doubt, would agree with tion to himself, and a matter of justice to-him in thinking, that when the petitioners wards the petitioners, who would other- urged the noble lord to move for the forwise suffer through his error. Having mer postponement on the ground that they had an acquaintance with the noble lord, did not wish for the trial on au early day, he was certainly disposed to accommodate that the noble lord was not aware of the him, but yet he felt himself bound, before resolution relative to a speedy trial, which he complied with the noble lord's request, these petitioners had just before published, to consult the opinion of his friends, and and in all probability the noble lord was they decidedly objected to the delay re-equally unaware of this circumstance, that quired. However, when he came down to the counsel for the petitioners did not go the house upon the day appointed for the any circuit, while those retained on his part motion, the noble lord applied to him did. But of this the petitioners were fully. again and again asking his consent to the apprised, and they would fain urge him to motion as a personal favour, he did grant trial without the advantage of his counsel. it. So far as he had gone, he believed the It might be asked, why he did not make noble lord could not say, that what he had this proposition of postponement somestated was not strictly true. But as to the what sooner? Ile would candidly answer, conversation which took place the day the because, as he stated before when this subnoble lord's motion of postponement was ject was under consideration, he really did agreed to, he held in his hand a document not think the petition would be persisted which contained it. He knew that he in, but from what he had heard of their could not distinctly allude to the evidence proceedings within the last few weeks, he he had adduced, because according to the or- was led to believe that his opponents were ders of that house, strangers were under- much more sanguine, even than he sus◄ stood to be excluded. But somehow a memo-pected, and that they were resolved to perrandum of what was said on the day alluded severe. Upon the whole, however, the to, did find its way into print, and certainly it right hon. gent. could not persuade himwas detailed with considerable accuracy, self to suppose that that house would call In looking over this memorandum, it would on any gentleman to enter upon such an be seen that all the arguments advanced by important investigation, stripped of the aid the noble lord made against his motion, of his counsel; and he could not help observe and of course it was a very natural infer-ing that the attempt to take advantage of him ence that the motion owed its success to in this instance, was not a very liberal return something else. That something was his for the manner in which he gave way to the concurrence; and he recollected very well, noble lord's motion upon a former occasion. as it appeared from this memorandum, that he mentioned, at the time, his apprehension that the 24th of Feb. would go too near the circuit, which would render a farther postponement necessary, as his counsel would be out of town. Such was his statement then, and it was only upon the express condition that farther delay would be acceded to, if necessary, that he gave his assent to the noble lord's motion. This he

Lord Folkestone wished that he could return the compliment which the right hon. gent. had thought proper to bestow upon his accuracy; but he differed from him entirely as to his report of the conversation which took place on a former day. So farfrom the right hon. gent, having expressed a wish for further postponement, he had treated the proposition at the time as an omen of the petitioner's total abandon- .

4

right hon. friend's assent to the motion was this, that if the circuit should interfere with the day then named, the noble lord would concur in a farther postponement. It was under these circumstances, for the house to consider, whether his right hon. friend had made out such a case as entitled him to the indulgence for which he applied.

ment of the case. Without referring to any of the newspaper reports brought forward by the right hon. gent. he had no hesitation in positively asserting that he never made any such pledge or promise of agreeing to farther postponement, as that stated by the right hon. gent. But he would go farther. He denied that the right hon. gent. so understood him at the time of the Lord Folkestone, in explanation, again discussion, or so understood him since. denied that he made any pledge. But the right hon. gent. was not more in- The Attorney-General declared, that accurate in his text than in his preface, par-having heard the noble lord, the last time ticularly relative to the private note. For this subject was under consideration, the he denied having ever asked the right hon. impression upon his mind, from what the gent.'s consent to his motion. He merely noble lord said, was precisely the same as sent him a line, as he thought himself that which his noble friend who spoke last bound in courtesy to do, apprising the entertained. Without at all implicating right hon. gent. of his intended motion. the noble lord, whom he conceived as much But he would deem it very improper in- above joining in such a thing as any man deed to apply for the leave or concurrence in that house, he could not help observing of the right hon. gent. As to the observa- that the circumstance of naming the 24th tions made by him upon the subject of the of Feb., a day which it was known would circuit, he did not recollect, nay, he was cer- be so near the circuit, had very much the tain, that he did not utter, one word that appearance of a statagem on the part of the could warrant the conclusion drawn by the petitioners. For they were not unaware right hon. gent. He merely said that the that the two able counsel, Mr. Serjeant propriety of farther postponing the ballot Lens and Mr. Scarlet, who were retained in consequence of the approach of the cir- for his right hon. friend, would be on the cuit might become matter for subsequent circuit, while their eminent advocate, Mr. consideration. But he made no pledge, Plumer, would be in town. nor did he think the right hon. gent, either then or since believed him to have made any pledge upon this subject. The noble lord, after re-stating the manner in which he was led into the mistake of presenting this petition sooner than the petitioners wished, and commenting upon what he called the right hon. gent.'s perversion of the fact,' declared that he did not know until the preceding day, who were the counsel employed on either side, and concluded with expressing a hope that the house would not countenance a motion supported upon such light grounds, and brought forward only four days before the day fixed for the ballot.

Lord Howick thought the house should be always jealous of motions of this nature, and decide upon them with the utmost impartiality. With regard to what had passed on this subject on a former occasion, he could not hesitate to say that the impression upon his mind, from what the noble lord had said, was precisely the same as that stated by his right hon. friend. He would enter into no contest with the noble lord as to accuracy of memory, or as to the precise words he used: but most certainly he understood the express condition of bis

Mr. Perceval could not speak with confidence as to the words used in the conversation which took place when this subject was last before the house, for his atten tion to it was not so diligent as to justify any reliance on his memory. But, from the general impression on his mind, he could not say that he understood the noble lord had made any such pledge as that referred to. Nor did the right hon. gent. (Mr. Sheridan) appear to him to have at all pressed any point as to counsel; for he spoke rather in an air of triumph, as if he relied on the total abandonment of the petition, and that the house would hear no more of it. The absence of counsel on the circuit he thought very insufficient ground to allege for the postponement of a question of this nature; for upon that ground all the petitions before the house might be postponed.

Mr. Peter Moore regretted that the liberality of his right hon. friend should have prompted him in a former instance to consent to the postponement of this measure. But he recollected well the condition upon which that consent was given, although this condition seemed now so entirely forgotten by the noble lord. With

regard to the petition, if the petitioners way of promoting the moral and intellecwould forego the aid of their counsel, hetual improvement of the lower orders in was sure his right hon. friend could, un- any country, but above all in Ireland. aided by any counsel, have no hesitation On the Resolution that a sum of 5000l. to go to trial at once with them, notwith-be granted for the Roman Catholic college, standing all the confidence of their boast-at Maynooth, in addition to the sum of ing, all the activity of their enquiries, and 8,000l. annually, which additional grant all the acrimony of their contrivances.

was for the erection of other buildings, for the further accommodation of the students in that seminary, a short conversation took place.

Lord Folkestone contended that the learned gent. (the attorney-general) was not warranted from any part of the conduct of the petitioners, in imputing to them any Mr. Perceval had no objection, as this description of fraud or stratagem.-After establishment had been founded previous some farther conversation, the house divi- to the union, to granting the sum of 8,0002. ded; for Mr. Sheridan's motion 167; as usual; but as he looked upon the preagainst it 12; majority 155. The order for a ballot was then fixed for Tuesday the 14th of April.

sent proposed addition as the commencement of an increasing expenditure, which would tend to make that institution rival [IRISH MISCELLANEOUS SERVICES.] the university of Dublin, and tend to the esThe house resolved itself into a committee tablishment of the catholic religion, he felt of supply, to which the various accounts it his duty to express his dissent to it in respecting the Irish Miscellaneous Services the first instance, though he did not then had been previously referred. Sir John mean to press his opposition to a division. Newport moved, and it was resolved by If he was rightly informed, the youth of the the committee, that the several sums in the Roman catholic gentry were educated in respective estimates, be granted for his ma- the university of Dublin, before the estajesty's further services to which they re-blishment of this institution; which pracferred, for the year ending the 1st of January, 1808.

Mr. H. A. Herbert observed upon the resolution voting a certain sum to the association for discountenancing vice and promoting the knowledge of religion and virtue, that however he might respect the individuals composing that body, he could not entirely approve of any self-created corporation, not relying upon their own voluntary contributions.

Sir J. Newport said, that the grant now called for, was for the purpose of enabling the association to purchase a quantity of Bibles and Testaments, in order to retail them at a very low rate to the lower orders of the community.

tice had wholly ceased since. If this addition were in this instance to be granted, it would be the foundation for a further application next year, and he was against the policy of giving any encouragement to the growth of the Roman catholic religion.

Sir John Newport observed, that the question was, not whether the catholic clergy should be educated in foreign countries, or at home; for, in the present state of Europe, they could not go for education to foreign countries. The question therefore was, whether they should be educated at all. Every gentleman would admit, that the catholics could not, by being educated abroad, be rendered better subjects, and that a domestic education for them Mr. Corry wished it to be generally un- was most desirable. Since the establishderstood, that the sums now called for, ment of the institution by the disuse of fofor the miscellaneous services of Ireland, reign education, the demand for a supply were in principle guaranteed by the union of catholic clergymen had increased, in Compact; as to the association interested order to replace the infirm or the dead, in the resolution now before the committee, and had increased to such a degree that that association was incorporated before the college did not afford sufficient. It the union, and sanctioned uniformly by had on that account been recommended by the parliament of Ireland, and most the government of Ireland to increase the deservedly so, for the country had de-grant, for the purpose of providing greater rived the most inestimable advantages accommodations. The petition was solely from its unwearied zeal in the cause of for the education of the catholic clergy; religion and morality.

Mr. Wilberforce thought the diffusion of Bibles aud Testaments the uest possible

but a lay seminary had been established near the college, which had the benefit of the professors of the college. The catholics

had not been allowed to enter the univer-giance; foreign education can engender sity of Dublin till the relaxation in 1793, no great loyalty; kept at home and taught and this institution had immediately been to love his country, he must revere its gofounded.

Mr. H. A. Herbert said, that there was not an item in the whole accounts, to which be should give so hearty and cordial an assent, as that which was now before the committee; he insisted, that if we were in earnest with the people of Ireland, if Maynooth college was not a mockery, we should not hesitate to give the grants necessary for its maintenance.

Mr. Perceval said, that many of the catholic gentry were educated in the protestant university of Ireland, before the erection of Maynooth college; but that since that impolitic measure, the number of catholic pupils in Dublin college had considerably diminished.

vernment.

Mr. Bankes thought the institution highly impolitic, and maintained that catholicism in Ireland should be discouraged rather than upheld.

Captain Herbert warmly supported the institution, and illustrated its policy, by an allusion to a certain occurrence in the French revolution, at the expulsion of the priests, and the consequent degradation of the protestant clergy.

Lord Stanley approved of the principle of the institution. The resolutions were then agreed to, and on the house resuming, the report was ordered to be received on Monday.

[SLAVE TRADE ABOLITION BILL.] Sir J. Newport thought, that the right Lord Howick moved the order of the hon. gent. must have been misinformed on day for the second reading of the Slave that head, as before the year 1793 no Ro-Trade Abolition Bill. man catholic students were admissible.

Mr. Perceval further contended against the policy of any institution for the encouragement of Catholicism in Ireland, to the manifest injury of Protestantism.

General Gascoyne suggested the propri ety of deferring the hearing of counsel till Monday, on the ground that on the first reading of the bill, it was understood that the whole of this day was to be occupied with this most important question, and that at that hour of the evening it was not likely there would be such an attendance to hear the arguments of counsel with patience and decorum, as the magni

Sir J. Newport denied that there was a lay institution of the nature asserted by the hon. member; the college founded and supported by government, was for the education of the priesthood, and the priest hood only; instruction to the laity how-tude of the measure required. ever, be admitted, might have been a secondary object.

Lord Howick was as much disposed as any man to consider this as a question of great importance: perhaps it was the most important that had ever been submitted to a legislative body; but when the house was told that this was an inconve nient hour to hear counsel, and to hear counsel alone, for it was understood that

Mr. Grattan said, that the question lay within a narrow compass; whether, the Roman catholic was to go abroad; form foreign connections; involve himself in foreign relations, and bring home foreign affections to his country; or whether he was to remain in his native land, and there ac-no debate was to follow, he did not see quire the instruction he was there to dis- how such an assertion could be supported. seminate? If this could be as well effected Ile certainly regretted that such a delay in the college of Dublin, he should rejoice had occurred, which was to be attribuat it; for he would ever wish to see the ted to the unexpected time that had been catholic and protestant walking hand in occupied by the public business that had hand together; he would wish to have them been brought forward on that evening.. acting in such co-operation as to have in It was not a very late hour, and he was common the one grand impulse, and the of opinion, that there was a fuller attenone grand end; but the expence of in-dance at that time than could be expected. struction was complained of. What was the at the hour proposed by the hon. gent. opexpence? 13,000/.; and what was got by posite.-Gen. Gascoyne declaring that he that 13,000l. the instruction of 3 millions did not mean to persevere in his recomand a half of people; this would be more mendation of postponement, counsel were than economy; it would be worse than then called in, in the following order: parsimony; keep the Roman catholic at Mr. Dallas, for the merchants and planhome; home education will promote alle-ters of Jamaica; Mr. Alexander, for the