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to take into his custody the said captain Irish mutiny bill, allowing catholics to sir Home Popham : and the said copy was hold a certain rank in the army, and this · read. Ordered, tbat what Mr. Greuville clause it was now proposed to make genie
hath now communicated to the house, and ral. It was also proposed that all catholics also the said copy, be entered in the jour, in the army should be allowed the free exnal of this house. The house having, up-ercise of their religion. This was, no on the motion of sir J. Newport, resolved doubt, the practice already; but it was into a committee of ways and means, the understood that it would afford much more right hon. bart. proposed a resolution for satisfaction if it were made the law. lo
discontinuing certain duties, and enacting addition to these there were other clauses • others in their room. He read over a list of less moment which it was proposed to of new duties which he proposed to impose, submit to the house. Such were the reanamely, upon every man whose house and sons which urged the noble lord to move land was above the value of 41. per an- a further postponement of this measure. num, and less than 71. one shilling and Mr. l'orke asked, whether it was likely sixpence a year; if more than 71. and less that the discussion would be brougbt forthan 10/., two shillings, is not liable to the ward upon the day mentioned by the noble hearth tax; if more than 10l. and less than lord, or whether it would be postponed any 407,. three-pence in the pound; and for further? every pound above 401., four-pence in the Lord Howick saw no reason to apprehend · pound, if not liable to the window tax. what any farther delay would be necessary.
He also stated his proposed scale of taxa- The noble lord moved, that the order for - tion upon windows and hearths, and con- the second reading of this bill should be - cluded with observing, that it was the in- fixed for Tuesday se'nnight.--Ordered actention in all matters of personal taxation cordingly, to make bachelors pay double as much as (WESTMINSTER ELECTION PETITION married men. Upon the paper manufac- Mr. Sheridan rose, pursuant to notice, to tory the right hon. baronet proposed to move that the order for the appointment of impose a tax according to the number of a committee to consider the petition upon vats used by the manufacturer, instead of this subject should be discharged, with a mills, which were heretofore the criteria, view to move for the further postponement. and which had led to a great loss of reve- The right bon. gent, was so much of opjnue. There were several duties hereto- nion, from what had passed when last this fore annual, which the right hon. baronet question was before the house, that a mo- arnounced his intention of proposing to lion for further postponement would be im, be made permanent. In answer io a ques-mediately assented to if required, that he tion from colonel Barry, the right hon. ba- confessed he heard with considerable surronet stated, that an increased tax upon prise of the intention to oppose the mohorses was meant to be imposed upon those tion, particularly on the part of the noble - who had four or more borses, unless fur lord (Folkestone), by whom a similar propurposes of agriculture, but that the in. position was last submitted to the bouse. crease was not to go lower. The resolution Had be happened to have stood in the prewas then agreed to.
dicament of being unable to bring forward MUTINY BILL-ROMAN CATHOLICS.] such a motion, he really thought that the Lord Howick moved the reading of the noble lord would have been ready to propose order for the second reading of the mu-it himself. At least be felt that he should tiny bill on Tuesday next, with a view, as be warranted, from the noble lord's former the noble lord stated, to move the post-language and conduct, in relying upon his ponement of this order to a future day. readiness to second him in this proposition. The propriety of this postponement in the Of the grounds of this reliance, and the absence of his right hon, friend (Mr. Wind- justice of his opinion, the house would be ham) would, he had no doubt, be readily able to judge from a short review of the admitted. But there were other objects history of the case. When the petition which rendered further delay necessary, in before the bouse was presented, which was order to atord time for the preparation of about the 23d of December, the first or some additional clauses which it was in second day after any petitions could be retended to bring forward. It would be received, the noble lord announced the de "mieabered by many members, that in the sire of the petitioners that the earliest day year 1799, á clause was inserted in the possible should be appointed for the balls
lot, and that they were ready at once lo could aver from his own memory, but go before a committee. Accordingly the there were not less than 20 or 30 gentle13th of January was appointed. But, men present, who also heard the noble lord, notwithstanding the declaration of the no- and who could bear testimony to the nos ble lord, and the publicly proclaimed reso- ble lord's observation. The noble lord did lution of the petitioners, he received, not state upon that occasion, that when he many days afterwards, a note from the no- mentioned the 24th of Febi he was not ble lord, stating, that it was through a aware that the circuit was so near, and that if mistake he presented the petition so soon, that day should in consequence become inand that the parties were not ready to go convenient, there could be no objection to into the investigation on the day originally a farther postponement. This declaration appointed. The voble lord, therefore, re- the noble lord was understood to have quested his consent to a further postpone- made by several friends near him. The ment, as a matter of personal accomnioda- house, he had no doubt, would agree with tion to himself, and a matter of justice to him in thinking, that when the petitioners wards the petitioners, who would other- urged the noble lord to move for the fora wise suffer through his error. Having mer postponement on the ground that they had an acquaintance with the noble lord, did not wish for the trial on an early day, he was certainly disposed to accommodate that the noble lord was not aware of the him, but yet he felt himself bound, before resolution relative to a speedy trial, which he complied with the noble lord's request, these petitioners had just before published, to consult the opinion of his friends, and and in all probability the noble lord was they decidedly objected to the delay re- equally unaware of this circumstance, that quired. However, when he came down to the counsel for the petitioners did not go the house upon the day appointed for the any circuit, while those retained on his part motion, the noble lord applied to him did. But of this the petitioners were fully again i and again asking his consent to the apprised, and they would fain urge him to motion as a personal favour, be did grant trial without the advantage of his counsel. it. So far as he had gone, be believed the It might be asked, why he did not make noble lord could not say, that what he had this proposition of postponement some. stated was not strictly true. But as to the what sooner? Ile would candidly answer, conversation which took place the day the because, as he stated before when this subnoble lord's motion of postponement was ject was under consideration, he really did agreed to, he held in bis hand a document lot think the petition would be persisted which contained it. lle knew that he in, but from what he had heard of their could not distinctly allude to the evidence proceedings within the last few weeks, he he had adduced, because according to the or- was led to believe that his opponents were ders of that house, strangers were under- much more sanguine, even than he susstood to be excluded. But somehow a memo- pected, and that they were resolved to perrandum of what was said on the day alluded severe. Upon the whole, however, the to, did find its way into print, and certainly it right hon. gent. could not persuade himwas detailed with corsiderable accuracy, self to suppose that that house would call In looking over this memorandum, it would on any gentleman to enter upon such an be seen that all the arguments advanced by important investigation, stripped of the aid the noble lord made against his motion, of his counsel; and he could not belpol servand of course it was a very natural infer- ing that ibe attempt to take advantage of him. ence that the motion owed its success to in this instance, was not a very liberal return something else. That something was his for the manner in which he gave way to the concurrence; and he recollected very well, noble lord's motion upon a former occasion. as it appeared from this memorandum, that Lord Folkestone wished that he could rehe mentioned, at the time, his apprehen- turn the compliment which the right hon. sion that the 24th of Feb. would go too gent. þad thought proper to bestow upon near the circuit, which would render a his accuracy; but he differed from him en. farther postponement necessary, as bis tirely as to bis report of the conversation counsel would be out of town. Such was which took place on a former day. So far. his statement then, and it was only upon the from the right hon. gent: having expressed express condition that farther delay would a wish for further postponement, he had he acceded to, if necessary, that he gave his treated the proposition at the time as an assent to the noble lord's motion. This he omen of the petitioner's total abandonze.
ment of the case. Without referring to any right hon, friend's assent to the motion was of the newspaper reports brouglit forward this, that if the circuit should interfere with by the right hon. gent. he had no hesità tion the day then named, the puble lord would in positively asserting that he never made concur in a farther postponement. It was any such pledge or promise of agreeing to under these circumstances, for the house farther postponement, as that stated by to consider, whether his right hod. friend the right hon. gent. But he would go had made out such a case as entitled him to farther. He denied that the right hon. the indulgence for which be applied. gent. so understood him at the time of the Lord Folkestone, in explanation, again discussion, or so understood him since. denied that he made any pledge. But the righi hon. gent. was not more in- The Attorney-General declared, that accurate in his text than in his preface, par- baving heard the noble lord, the last time ticularly relative to the private note. For this subject was under consideration, the , he denied having ever asked the right hon impression upon his mind, from what the gent.'s consent to his motion. He merely noble lord said, was precisely the same as sent him a line, as he thought hiniseli that which his noble friend who spoke last bound in courtesy to do, apprising the entertained. Without at all implicating right hon. gent. of his intended motion. the noble lord, whom he conceived as much But he would deem it very improper in- above joining in such a thing as any man dced to apply for the leave or concurrence in that house, he could not help observing of the right hon. gent. As to the observa- that the circumstance of naming the 24th tions made by him upon the subject of the of Feb., a day which it was known would circuit, he did not recollect, nay, he was cer- be so near the circuit, had very much the tain, that he did not utter, one word that appearance of a statagem on the part of the could warrant the conclusion drawn by the petitioners. For they were not unaware right hon. gent. He merely said that the that the two able counsel, Mr. Serjeant propriety of farther postponing the ballot Lens and Mr. Scarlet, who were retained in consequence of the approach of the cir- for his right hon. friend, would be on the cuit might become matter for subsequent circuit, while their eminent advocate, Mr. consideration. But he made no pledge, Plumer, would be in town. nor did be.think the right hon. genit, either! Mr. Perceral could not speak with confithen or since believed him to have made dence as to the words used in the conver. any pledge upon this subject. The poble sation which took place when this subject lord, after re-stating the manner in which was last before the house, for his atten. he was led into the mistake of presenting tion to it was not so diligent as to justify this petition sooner than the petitioners any reliance on his memory. But, from wished, and commenting upon what be the general impression on his mind, be called the right hon. gent.'s perversion of could not say that he understood the noble the fact,' declared that he did not know lord bad made any such pledge as that reuntil the preceding day, who were the ierred to. Nor did the right hon. gent. counsel employed on either side, and con- (Nr. Sheridan) appear to him to have at cluded with expressing a hope that the all pressed any point as to counsel ; for he house would not countenance a motion spoke rather in an air of triumph, as if lie supported upon such light grounds, and relied on the total abandonment of the pebrought forward only four days before the tition, and that the house would hear no day fixed for the ballot.
more of it. The absence of counsel on the Lord Howick thought the house should circuit he thought very insufficient ground be always jealous of motions of this na-to allege for the postponement of a questure, and decide upon them with the ut- tion of this nature; for upon that ground most impartiality. With regutd to what all the petitions before the house might be had passed on this subject on a former oc- postponed. casion, he could not hesitate to say that the Mr. Peter Moore regretted that the liimpression upon his mind, from what the berality of his right hon. friend should noble lord had said, was precisely the same have prompted him in a former instance to as that stated by his right hon. friend. He consent to the postponement of this meawould enter into no contest with the noble sure. But he recollected well the condilord as to accuracy of memory, or as to the tion upon which that consent was given, precise words he used: but most certainly although this condition seemed now so enhe understood the express condition of bis tirely forgotten by the noble Jord. With regard to the petition, if the petitioners way of promoting the moral and intellecwould forego the aid of their counsel, be tual improvement of the lower orders in was sure liis right hon. friend could, un- any country, but above all in Ireland. aided by any counsel, have no hesitation On the Resolution that a sum of 50001. to go to trial at once with them, notwith- be granted for the Roman Catholic college, standing all the confidence of their boast- at Maynooth, in addition to the sum of ing, all the activity of their enquiries, and 8,0001. annually, which additional grant all the acrimony of their contrivances. was for the erection of other buildings, for
Lord Folkestone contended that the the further accommodation of the students learned gent. (the attorney-general) was 'in that seminary, a short conversation not warranted from any part of the conduct took place. of the petitioners, in imputing to them any Mr. Perceval had no objection, as this description of fraad or-stratagem.-After establishment had been founded previous some farther conversation, the house divi- to the union, to granting the sum of 8,0001. ded; for Mr. Sheridan's motion 167 ; as usual; but as he looked upon the preagainst it 12; majority 155. The order sent proposed addition as the commencefor a ballot was then fixed for Tuesdayment of an increasing expenditure, which the 14th of April.
would tend to make that institution rival [Irish MISCELLANEOUS Services.] the university of Dublin, and tend to the esThe house resolved itself into a committee tablishnient of the catholic religion, he felt of supply, to which the various accounts it his duty to express his dissent to it in respecting the Irish Miscellaneous Services the first instance, though he did not then had been previously referred. Sir Johu mean to press his opposition to a division. Newport moved, and it was resolved by If lie was rightly informed, the youth of the the committee, that the several sums in the Roman catholic gentry were educated in respective estimates, be granted for his ma- the university of Dublin, before the estajesty's further services to which they re-blishment of this institution; which pracferred, for the year ending the 1st of Ja- tice bad wholly ceased since. If this adnuary, 1808.
dition were in this instance to be granted, Mr. H. A. Herbert observed upon the it would be the foundation for a further resolution voting a certain sum to the as- application next year, and he was against sociation for discountenancing vice and the policy of giving any encouragement to promoting the knowledge of religion and the growth of the Roman catholic religion. virtue, that however he might respect the Sir John Newport observed, that the individuals composing that body, he could question was, not whether the catholic not entirely approve of any self-created clergy should be educated in foreign councorporation, not relying upon their own tries, or at bome; for, in the present state voluntary contributions.
of Europe, they could not go for education Sir J. Newport said, that the grant now to foreign countries. The question therecalled for, was for the purpose of enabling fore was, whether they should be educated the association to purchase a quantity of at all. Every gentleman would admit, Bibles and Testaments, in order to retail that the catholics could not, by being eduthem at a very low rate to the lower orders cated abroad, be rendered better subjects, of the community.
and that a domestic education for them Mr. Corry wished it to be generally un- was most desirable. Since the establishderstood, that the sums now called for, ment of the institution by the disuse of fofor the miscellaneous services of Ireland, reign education, the demand for a supply were in principle guaranteed by the union of catholic clergymen had increased, in compact; as to the association interested order to replace the infirm or the dead, in the resolution now before the committee, and had increased to such a degree that that association was incorporated before the college did uot afford sufficient. It the union, and sanctioned uniformly by bad on that account been recommended by the parliament of Ireland, and most the government of Ireland to increase the deservedly so, for the country had de grant, for the purpose of providing greater rived the most inestimable advantages accommodations. The petition was solely from its unwearied zeal in the cause of for the education of the catholic clergy'; religion and morality.
but a lay seminary bad been established Nr. Wilberforce thought the diffusion of near the college, which had the benefit of Bibles aud Testaments the test possible the professors of the college. The catholics had not been allowed to enter the univer- giance; foreign education can engender sity of Dublin till the relaxation in 1793, no great loyally; kept at home and taught and this institution had immediately been to love his country, he must revere its gofounded.
vernment. Mr. H. A. Herbert said, that there was Mr. Bankes thought the institution not an item in the whole accounts, to highly impolitic, and maintained that which be should give so hearty and cordial catholicism in Ireland should be discouan assent, as that which was now before raged rather than upheld. the committee; he insisted, that if we Captain Herbert warmly supported the were in earnest with the people of Ireland, institution, and illustrated its policy, by an if Maynooth college was not a mockery, allusion to a certain occurrence in the we should not hesitate to give the grants French revolution, at the expulsion of the necessary for its maintenance.
priests, and the consequent degradation of Mr. Perceral said, that many of the the protestant clergy. catholic gentry were educated in the pro- Lord Stanley approved of the principle Lestant university of Ireland, before the of the institution. The resolutions were erection of Mayoooth college ; but that then agreed to, and on the house resuning, since that impolitic measure, the number of the report was ordered to be received on catholic pupils in Dublin college had con- Monday. siderably diminished.
(SLAVE TRADE ABOLITION Bill.) Sir J. Nezoport thought, that the right Lord Howick moved the order of the hon. gent, must have been misinformed on day for the second reading of the Slave that head, as before the year 1793 no Ro- Trade Abolition Bill. inan catholic students were admissible. General Gascoyne suggested the propri.
Mr. Perceval further contended against ety of deferring the hearing of counsel till the policy of any institution for the encou- Monday, on the ground that on the first ragement of Catholicism in Ireland, to the reading of the bill, it was understood that manifest injury of Protestantism.
the whole of this day was to be occupied Sir J. Nezi port denied that there was a with this most important question, and lay institution of the nature asserted by the that at that hour of the evening it was hon. meinber; the college founded and not likely there would be such an altensupported by government, was for the edu-dance to hear the arguments of counsei cation of the priesthood, and the priest with patience and decorum, as the magnihood only; instruction to the laity how- tude of the measure required. ever, be admitted, might have been a se- Lord Howick was as much disposed as condary object.
any man to consider this as a question or Mr. Grattan said, that the question lay great importance : perhaps it was the within a narrow compass; whether, the most important that bad ever been subRoman catholic was to go abroad; form mitted to a legislative body; but when the toreign connections; involve liimself in house was told that this was an inconveforeign relations, and bring home foreign nient hour to hear counsel, and to bear affections to his country; or whether he was counsel alone, for it was understood that to reniain in his native land, and there ac- no debate was to follow, he did not see quire the instruction he was there to dis- how such an assertion could be supported. seminate? If this could be as well effected le certainly regretted that such a delay in the college of Dublin, he should rejoice had occurred, which was to be altribu-: at it; for he would ever wish to see the ted to the unexpected time that had been catholic and protestant walking haud in occupied by the public business that had hand together; he would wish to have them been brought forward on that evening. acting in such co-operation as to have in It was not a very late hour, and he was common the one grand impulse, and the of opinion, that there was a fuller attenone grand end; but the expence of in- dance at that time than could be expected. struction was complained of. What was the at the hour proposed by the bon. gent. opexpence? 13,0001.; and what was got by posite.-Gen. Gascoyne declaring that he that 13,0001.: the instruction of 3 millions did not niean to persevere in his recomand a half of people; this would be more mendation of postponement, counsel were, than economy ; it would be worse than then called in, in the following order : parsimony; keep the Roman catholic at Mr. Dallas, for the merchants and planhome; home education will promote alle ters of Jamaica ; Mr. Alexander, for ebe