able refuge to many. The annual expence charged. He contended also, that even in one of those bouses which he was particu-on the plan of taking the war taxes, his larly acquainted with, was 71. for each system was better than that of the noble individual, though there were. many idiots lord's. and lunatics in it.

Mr. H. Thornton deprecated equally the Mr. Bathurst recommended to have a continuance of heavy taxation, and the im great number of copies of the bill print- mediate invasion of the sinking fund. On ed, and to have them circulated through these considerations he was inclined to apthe country, with every facility of convey-prove of the noble lord's plan, and also beance that government could give. The cause the most maturely weighed of the plans bill would be better considered altogether, brought forward on the other side approxi in the first instance; it might afterwards mated very nearly to that of the noble be divided; and if the whole of it should lord. He complained of the statement of not pass this session, he hoped some parts the noble lord opposite (Castlereagh), that of it at least would, as many parts of it in his calculation he had omitted the would be highly beneficial. charge of the yearly loan of 11 millions, Mr. Whitbread said he should be pleased which would require the payment of interif any part of the labour he had bestowed est for 14,000,000l. It was unpardonable on the subject, should meet the approbation to delude the public with statements repreof the house; but he would not lose sight senting the charges of the new plan as comof any amendment he thought requisite, paratively burthensome, and to exclude - till he should have effected it. Leave was from the comparative view all this considergiven to bring in a bill, and Mr. Whit-ation of the great expence of interest belongbread, Mr. Pym,. Mr. Brand, Mr. Lee ing to the plan of the noble lord opposite. Antonie, and Mr. Horner, were ordered to prepare and bring in the same..

[NEW PLAN OF FINANCE.]. Lord Henry Petty moved the order of the day, for taking into further consideration the report from the committee of the whole house, to whom it was referred to consider farther of the Finances of the country...

The noble lord's plan for taking the excesses of the sinking fund was an invasion, which called for every friend of the sinking fund to come forward in its defence. Here the hon. gent. went into a history of the progress of the sinking fund from its origin. The benefits we had experienced, ought to bind us in policy and in gratitude to preSir James Pulteney contended that it was serve the source of all these advantages. erroneous to suppose any violation of faith The interference of Mr. Addington, and towards the stockholder in diverting the that of the noble lord near him, with the sinking fund. It was not alone from the quan- sinking fund, had been coupled with benetity of sinking fund brought into the mar- fits which compensated the invasion. But ket, but from the proportion of the sinking the noble lord's plan invaded the security fund to the debt untouched within the year. of the stockholder, by taking the excesses The price of stocks was at its highest in of the sinking fund, without offering any 1790, when the 3 per cents. were at 96, compensation. The plan of taking the, and at that time there was scarcely any excesses of the sinking fund, and raising sinking fund; the price of stocks was there- only the difference between that and fore not proportioned to the amount of 11,000,0007., would be very unjust as well the sinking fund. The quantity of capital as very impolitic. There was extreme to be invested in stock was always the best danger in laying down the principle, that security for keeping up the price. It was the sinking fund was to be diverted to the agreed that the accumulation of the sink-current service in every war. Taking the ing fund should stop at some time; he surplus of the consolidated fund to pay thought it should stop now. The accumu- the interest of the debt contracted in the lation of debt would thus be prevented, year, was a violation, if he might so exand the situation of the stockholder not press it, of public credit, at best. But it deteriorated. Then the hon. baronet went might happen that the consolidated fund into a series of calculations to shew the would barely cover the charges imposed effect of the noble lord's plan and his own. upon it; and what was to be done in that He contended, that the comparison was case? With respect to the war taxes, no much against the noble lord's plan. A great pledge was incurred to continue them, but accumulation of debt would be avoided, only taxes to the same amount to extinand the war taxes would be preserved un-guish the sums borrowed. The objection

of borrowing at compound interest was an- himself understood in what he had to say swered, by exhibiting the compound al-on this subject, if the statement of his noble ready produced, and about to be produced friend (lord Castlereagh) had failed of conby this plan, and by the noble lord's recent veying a clear idea of its purport. Before nieasure. It was the noble lord that had he entered on what he had to say, he pur raised these very war taxes last year nine posed to inåke one or two observations on millions above their former amount, and the preliminary topics which had been inhad thus furnished a foundation for the troduced into the discussion. The debates whole superstructure of this plan. The on this subject would have the effect of plan was supposed to under-rate the expen-shewing to the public, that the expenditure diture, but it provided in fact for an ex-of the country, which had been taken at penditure to that amount, with an increased 38 millions, would not be the whole of the facility of raising larger sums, if that should expenditure, and therefore of removing any be necessary. He hoped the experience delusive hopes that might arise from such of one year would confirm the favourable an impression. But though the noble expectation entertained of the noble lord's lord could not have accurately estimated the plan, and prove its efficacy towards raising amount of the actual expenditure, yet an a great part of the expenditure, not di-increased expenditure ought to have been fectly in the same year, but so as to be provided for, and he understood that they redeemed in a few years. This little is were likely even in the present year, to be land was carrying on war almost against called on for a much larger sum than any the powers of the world, for the benefit of that had been yet mentioned. Either the world, and with such an extent of co-Russia was to be abandoned, and prace to lonial empire to secure, it was necessary to be the conséquence on the continent, or preserve our sinking fund, and to reduce this country should advance the necessary and diminish the public debt, so as to al- subsidies to our allies. There was also a low us, if necessary, to go into a new war charge of 500,0001. due from government with ample resources. Though that was to the East-India company, which ought to not done as much as he could wish by the have been included in the civil expenditure noble lord's plan, it was very nearly done. of the country. The document that had The national debt was certainly a great been circulated to the public, held out a and awful weight upon the exertions more favourable prospect than was borne and industry of the country; but it was out by the papers before the house, spon still a pleasing reflection to consider, that which it was founded. That paper repre the annual income of the nation was sented that the addition to the debt under Brought within 2,500,0001. of the expen- the proposed systein, would be on the ave Riture; that whilst the enemy had sup-rage of 20 years, 3 millions and a half, ported the expences of warfare by confis- whereas it would in fact be 4 millions and cations, by a diminution at one period of a half. If, as had been said by the last the public debt, and next of the interest speaker, the additions made to the taxes on the debt, by an illusory system of as-last session, had been adapted with a view signats, by spoliations on foreign states, to this plan, it seemed strange, that in the and extorting from others a tribute, as the speech at the opening of the session, his price of a mock independence, Great majesty was made to lament the necessity Britain, in the progress of a war avowedly of adding to the burthens of his people; Sfideftaken and conducted against her re-this plan being intended to prevent further sources, had risen superior to her difficul- taxation. It had been the fashion formerly ties, and had in this period of its progress to argue for the necessity of relieving posalmost equalised its income with its expenditure. In expressing his approbation of the plan of the noble lord, even off its own merits, he felt that opinión considerably strengthened, by contrasting it with those recommended by the hon. gentlemen on the opposite side, which increased the pubfic burthens in the present instance, and in no degree diminished the accumulation of the public debt.

Mr. Johnstone could not hope to make

terity from burthens, but now the argument was to relieve the present moment, and leave the burthens to posterity. He was a friend to the plan of leaving the burthens to affect posterity, because he found the system had not been prejudicial to us, so far as concerned the burthens handed down by our ancestors. But he had an objéction to the complicated machinery of the noble lord's plan, which, under the speĉious garb of complicated details, was,

fact, only to raise two millions and a half that expenditure, it would create disapa year, over the amount of the sinking pointment to the public. He trusted if fund. The hon. gent. then said, that if 11 such an addition should be necessary, it millions were to be raised annually, in ad- would induce the noble lord to make not dition to the war taxes, and interest to be parsimonious, but economical retrenchprovided only for the difference between ments. in the public expenditure. It had the amount of the sinking fund and the been said, that the sinking fund might loan, the difference between the sums raised become too. great, but he had no appreby his plan and that of the noble lord, hensions of that description, as that would be 44 millions; and by the noble fund had been intended to act against the lord's plan 2,051,000l. permanent taxes debt, and he wished to see that reduwould be imposed in 20 years, whilst by his ced. as early as possible. The appropriaonly 1,700,000l. would be imposed, and the tion of the war taxes had been stated to whole of the war taxes would, in the be a violation of the pledges given to former case, be mortgaged, which, in the the public, and a disappointment of their latter, would be free. It was natural for reasonable hopes, but necessity called for every person to be attached to the produc-it, and it was only to be feared, that under tion of his own brain, and he certainly a pressure of future circumstances, the mi. thought his plan superior to that of the nister of the day might make the addi noble lord's; as, according to his plan, tional appropriation of 4 per cent. the each loan would be paid off in 45 years, ground of future loans. If the taxes apaccording to the engagement to the public propriated should not be productive, parcreditor. liament would be bound to make them Mr. Bankes thought that the hon. mem-good. But he thought the property tax, ber who had just sat down, had taken the more equalized between the landed and sinking fund into his calculation two ways, moneyed interest, not descending so low as both as a means of redeeming the debt, at present, with an allowance to persons and as a fund applicable to the service. of having small incomes, with larger families, the year. There was a fallacy, therefore, in and facilities of recovery of the tax when his reasoning. If the government was only proved by those who had no right to pay, to provide for the interest of the excess of would be better retained than the other war the loan, over the amount of the sinking taxes. Taxes which came in by a cir fund, and to provide for the remainder out cuitous operation were felt more than a diof the proceeds of the sinking fund, that rect tax. But if any thing could keep fund would be stationary during the war. down the price of articles, and insure the Should the war last ten years, its progress economical expenditure proposed by the would therefore be interrupted, and the re-noble lord, it was the cessation from taxademption of the loans would be effected in tion for 3 years. As to subsidies to foreign 55 instead of 45 years. He objected to all powers, he had never been a friend to them the projects that had been proposed as sub- and did not approve of the grant of them stitutes for that of the noble lord opposite, in older or more recent times. He regret because they all were founded on the printed the whole of the expenditure of that ciple of invading the sinking fund, which description, because the powers of the conwas sacred, and not to be touched, except tinent always pursued their own objects in cases of extreme necessity. The plan of and interests. It was difficult, neverthe the noble lord afforded more prospects to less, for an individual member of that house the country than any other, because it was to oppose such grants, when recommended to release it from taxation for 3 years, on the great and grave authority of persons without diminishing its resources; and these who had access to documents shewing the 3 years were likely to be more important, views of foreign powers. He approved of than the same number of years in any pe- many parts of the plan of the noble-lord, riod of our history. This relief to the and. be, lamented that other parts of it country was wise, in the hope that Provi- should be contained in it, but on the wholedence, who had so often signally assisted he thought that the plans which had been this country, would again interfere in its recommended by his hon. friend, would behalf. He did not think it wise, however, not obviate any of the imperfections of the of the noble lord, to have stated the expen.noble lord's plan, and would augmentditure of the country so low as 32,000,000. many of them.

because if any addition were to be made to Mr. Rose observed, that the hon. gent

to substitute other taxes in their place. But it appeared to him a strange illustra tion of the impolicy of continuing the tonnage tax, that the German linens rivalled our linens in the West-India market, because no German linens could reach our islands but through this country.

who had spoken last had approved of the plan of the noble lord, which was only an anticipation of the war taxes, though he had expressed a doubt of the taxes being productive in time of peace. The hon. gent. had stated, that it would be better to continue the property tax than the other war taxes. But he apprehended that the Mr. Perceval at any other time and appropriated war taxes would not redeem under any other circumstances, would have the loans for which they might be mort- been disposed to trouble the house more gaged in 14 years, but would require a at length, than at that hour of the night he much longer time, in proportion as the was inclined to do. When the bills should price of the funds would rise, and with this be brought in, on the resolutions of the impression he thought it would be madness noble lord, he should have sufficient opporto pledge the war taxes. The right hon.tunities of delivering his sentiments upon gent. then repeated his former observations them, and he should feel it his duty to opto prove that none of the war taxes, ex-pose them in every stage. The taxes procept the property, tax, could be expected posed to be continued by the first resoluto be productive in time of peace. He was tion, were represented as not likely to be not prepared to agree to any one of the productive in peace, and to this it was anmany projects that had been submitted to swered, if they were unproductive, parthe house, but as no inconvenience could liament would be bound to make them arise from the delay of one year, he again good. If they were to be made permanent pressed the necessity of putting off the final only with a view to have them afterwards adoption of the measure till next session. repealed, this would be to make the act of He particularly objected to the continuance the legislature speak a language which it of the duty on tonnage after the war. This did not mean. In the same way the procountry was at present in possession of perty tax, which the house had been given the whole trade of the world, and no per- to understand, in the opening speech of the son could be so sanguine as to suppose, noble lord, was to be repealed at the end that we should not have rivals for that trade of the war, had been in his subsequent exin time of peace. A duty on tonnage and planations represented as liable to be conlandage had been laid on in the reign of tinued in peace, yet the second resolution Charles II. when the principles of political pledged the house positively to the repeal economy were not so well understood as of the war tax the moment the war should at present, but this had been taken off in cease." The first resolution was to pledge the reign of William III. so far as related the war taxes, which were afterwards to be to woollen manufactures, and was entirely repealed; and the second resolution dedone away in 1720, in the reign of George clared, that the property tax, which was II. Was a duty repealed in that reign to likely to be continued, should be repealed. be resorted to in the present? It would be If the taxes mentioned in the first resoa serious motive for the consideration of lution were to be repealed, why enact their the house, that the German linens rivalled continuance? and if the property tax was our manufactures of that article in our to be continued, why resolve that it should West-India islands, and even undersold be repealed? He thought that it was imthem. The plan of the noble lord re-proper in the house to legislate for futurity. sembled that of Mr. Neckar, which had These observations he made with a view to been the chief cause of the French revo-press the suggestion of his right hon. friend lution. He could not reconcile it to himself to give a silent vote on the subject, considering, as he did, the resolutions of the noble lord fraught with the greatest mischief to the country.

Mr. Corry observed, that the right hon. gent. had impugned the plan of the noble lord, on the ground that the taxes would not be productive during peace. But if so, the parliament would be bound to make good any deficiency that might arise, or

that the provision for the loan should be charged upon any fund, and the discussion of the noble lord's plan deferred to next session. It had been said, that the duties, if appropriated, might afterwards be repealed; and this he looked upon as the best argument that had been urged in favour of the measure. The plan of the noble lord might be very good, and his majesty's ministers might have bestowed all due attention upon it, but yet the house

had not had sufficient time to consider so complicated a question. It was only that day that some of the papers, necessary to form a judgment on the subject, were laid before the house.

delicacy and scrupulosity which gentlemen on the other side professed to feel for the strict observance of the public faith. Yet if on any side there was any disposition to infringe it, that disposition or tendency was to be found in the plan of the noble lord. Let the different acts be referred to, more particularly that of 1792, for securing inviolate the public faith respecting the sink.

present plan was reconcileable either with the spirit or the letter of these acts.

Mr. Vansittart pledged himself to prove upon the same occasion, that there was no inconsistency between the plan of his noble friend, and the acts referred to by the hon. gent.

Mr. Canning declared his most decided objection to the whole principle of the measure: at that late hour he should not trespass upon the time of the house, but should reserve himself for a more convenient opportunity.-The question was then loudly called for, and the resolutions read a second time, and agreed to.

Lord Henry Petty maintained that the resolutions contained no pledge whatever for the continuance of any particular tax. The object of the plan was to provide for the exigencies of a protracted war, and ating fund, and it would be seen how far the the same time, by abstaining from imposing fresh taxes, to relieve the country, to repair its strength and recruit its resources, whilst its operation would provide the means of resorting again to taxation, if that must be the case, a resort which would still remain, even supposing the plan totally to fail. His lordship entered into a comparison of the plan he had proposed, and those suggested on the other side, and contended that his plan had this great advantage, that it would operate to increase the sinking fund, in a larger proportion to the debt, up to a certain point when its excesses were to be taken, whilst the plans proposed on the other side would operate to increase considerably the debt, and leave the sinking fund as it now stood. He proposed, after a certain accumulation of the sinking fund, to appropriate the excesses; but they would attack that fund immediately. He remembered a story of a man who said he had a sure method of curing sheep of all disorders, and that was by cutting their throats; so gentlemen on the other side would get at the sinking fund by immediately taking it, and this constituted the boasted simplicity of their plans. His plan, on the contrary, by the proportionable magnitude of the sinking fund, would insure to the stockholder a certain market for his stock, and instead of mortgaging all the resources of the country, as some hon. gentlemen had contended, there would, if it continued to operate, be a sum of 25,000,000l. available for the ser-Spanish settlements in the Rio de la Plata, vice of the country in the year 1822.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Friday, February 20.

[MINUTES.] This day the following members were chosen by ballot to try the merits of the Downpatrick election:-R. P. Scudamore, esq. B. Cook, esq. W. M. Pitt, esq. hon. W. Howard, D. Giddy, esq. A Strahan, esq. lord Althorpe, F. J. Wilder, esq. D. P. Coke, esq. hon. C. Herbeit, J. Wharton, esq. hon. W. Broderick, Thos. Kemp, esq. nominees, H. Martin, esq. C. W. Wynne, esq.-Mr. Grenville (from the commissioners for executing the office of lord high admiral) acquainted the house, that their lordships having judged it expedient that captain sir Home Popham should be tried by a court martial for having quitted the Cape of Good Hope, for the purpose of attacking the

without having received any direction or Lord Castlereagh contended that the authority whatever for that purpose, had system before the house was a much greater accordingly issued their warrant to the infraction of the act of 1786, than that marshal of the high court of admiralty for which had been done in 1802, which had taking him into custody; that, as captain been alluded to in the course of the de-sir Home Popham is a member of this bate. After touching on several other house, their lordships had thought it a repoints, his lordship observed, that he would spect due to the house, to inform them of speak more fully on the subject next Mon-his commitment, and to lay before them a day, when the resolutions which he had copy of the warrant, by virtue of which submitted to the house would be under consideration.

Mr. Huskisson had heard much of the
VOL. VIII.

he is now in custody. And Mr. Grenville delivered in at the table, a copy of the warrant to the marshal of the admiralty, 30