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able refuge to many. The annual expence charged. He contended also, that even in one of those byuses which he was particu- .on the plan of taking the war taxes, his larly acquainted with, was 71: for-each systeni vas better than that of the noble individual, ihough there were many idiots lord's. and lunatics in it.

Mr. H. Thornton deprecated equally the Mr. Bathurst recommended tą bare continuance of heavy taxation, and the imgreat number of copies of the bill print mediate invasion of the sinking fund. ed, and to have them circulated through these considerations he was inclined to apthe country, with every facility of convey- prove of the noble lord's plan, and also beance that government could give. The cause the most maturelyweighed of the plans bill would be better considered altogether, brought forward on the other side approxi. in the first instance; it might afterwards mated very nearly to that of the noble be divided ; and if the whole of it should lord. He complained of the statement of not pass this session, he hoped some parts the noble lord opposite (Castlereagh), that of it at least would, as many parts of it in his calculation he had omitted the would be ligbly beneficial.

charge of the yearly loan of 11 millions, Mr. Whitbread said he should be pleased which would require the payment of interif any part of the labour he had bestowed est for '14,000,000l. It was unpardonable on the subject, should meet the approbation to delude the public with statements repre of the house ; but he would not lose sight senting the charges of the new plan as comof any amendment he thought requisite, paratively · burthensome, and to exclude till he should have effected it.-Leave was from the consparative view all this considergiven to bring in a bill, and Mr. Whit-ation of the great expence of interest belongbread, Mr. Pym, Mr. Brand, - Mr. Leeing to the plan of the noble lord opposite. Antonie, and Mr. Horner, were ordered to The noble lord's plan for taking the excesses prepare and bring in the same. .

of the sinking fund was an invasion, which [New PLAN OF Finance.). - Lord called for every friend of the sinking fund Henry Petty, mored the order of the day, to come forward in its defence. Here the for taking into further consideration the hon. gent, went into a history of the proreport from the committee of the whole gress of the sinking fund from its origin. house, to whom it was referred to consider The benefits we had experienced, ought to farther of the Finances of the country. bind us in policy and in gratitude to prem

Sir James Pulteney contended that it was serve the source of all these advantages. erroneous to suppose any violation of faith The interference of Mr. Addington, and towards the stockholder in diverting the that of the noble lord near him, with the sinking fund. It was not alone from the quan- sinking fund, had been coupled with benetity of sinking fund brought into the mar- fits which compensated the invasion. But ket, but from the proportion of the sinking the noble lord's plan invaded the security fund to the debt untouched witħin the year. of the stockholder, by taking the excesses The price of stocks was at its highest in of the sinking fund, without offering any 3790, when the 3 per cents. were at 96, compensation. The plan of taking the and at that time there was scarcely any excesses of the sinking fund, and raising sinking fund; the price of stocks was there only the difference between that and fore not proportioned to the amount of 11,000,0001., would be very unjust as well the sinking fund. The quantity of capital as very impolitic. There was extreme to te invested in stock was always the best danger in laying down the principle, that security for keeping up the price. It was the sinking fund was to be diverted to the agreed that the accumulation of the sink. current service in every war. Taking the ing fund should stop at some time; he surplus of the consolidated fund to pay thought it should stop now. The accumu- the interest of the debt contracted in the lation of debt would thus be prevented, year, was a violation, if he might so exand the situation, of the stockholder not press it, of public credit, at best. But it deteriorated. Then the hon. baronet went might happen that the consolidated fund into a series of calculations to shew the would barely cover the charges imposed effect of the noble lord's plan and his own. upon it; and what was to be done in that He contended, that the comparison was case? With respect to the war taxes, no much against the noble lord's plan. A great pledge was incurred to continue them, but . accumulation of debt would be avoided, only taxes to the saine amount to extitiand the war taxes would be preserved un- guish the sums borrowed. The objection

of borrowing åt compound interest was an- hinsell understood in what he had to say swered, by exhibiting the conpound al- on this subject, if the statement of his noble ready produced, and about to be produced friend (lord Castlereagh) had failed of cob. by this plan, and by the noble lord's recent veying a clear idea of its purport. Beforte nieasure. It was the noble lord that had lie entered on what he bad to say, he, purTaised these tery war taxes last year nine posed to inake one or two obseri ations on millions above their former amount, and the preliminary topics whicb bad been inhad thus furuished a foundation for the troducer into the discussion. The debates whole superstructure of this plan. The on this subject would have the effect of plan was supposed to under-rate the expen- shewing to the public, that the expenditure diture, but it provided in fact for an ex-of the couutry, which had been taken at penditure to ihat amount, with an increased 38 millions, would not be the whole of tlie fucility of raising larger sums, if that should expenditure, and therefore of removing any be necessary. He hoped the experience delasive hopes that might arise from such of one year would confirm the favourable an impression. But though the poble expectation entertained of the noble furd's lord could not liave accurately estimated the plan, and prove its efficacy towards raising amount of the actual expenditure, yet an a great part of the expendituré, not di-increased expenditure ought to have been rectly in the same year; but so as to be provided for; alid lie understood that they redeemed in a few years. Tliis little is- were likely even in the present year, to be land was carrying on war almost against called on för a inuch larger sum than any the powers of the world, for the benefit of that had been yët mentioned. Either the world, and with such an extént of co- Ressia was to be abandoned, and peace to lonial empire to secure, it was necessary to be the conséquence on the continent, or bréserve our sinking fund, and to reduce this country should advance the necessary and diminish the public debt, so as to al subsidies to our alliés. There was also a low us, if necessary, to go into à tew war charge of 500,0001. dde from government with ainple resources. Though that was to the East India company, which ooght to hot done as much as he could wish by the have been included in the civil expenditure noble lørd's plan, it was very nearly done. of the country. The document that bad The national debt was ceriainly a great been circulated to the public, héld out and awful weight upon the exertions morë farourable prospect than ivas borue and industry of the couniry; but it was out by the papers before the house, opon still a pleasing reflection to consider, that which it was founded. That paper repris the annual income of the nation was sented that the addition to the debt under Brought within 2,500,0001. of the expen- the proposed systein, would be on the aveHiture; that whilst the enemy find sup-frage of 20 years, 3 millions and a ball, ported the expences of wärfáré by confis- whereas it would in fact bé 4 millions and eations, by a diminution at one period of a half. If, as had been said by the last the public debt, and next of the interést speaker, the additions made to the taxes on the debt, by an illusory system of as- last session, had been adapted with a vies Signats, by spoliations on foreign slätes, to this play, it seemed strange, that in the and extorting from others a tribute, as the speech at the opening of the session, his price of a močk independence, Great Majesty was made to lament the necessity Britain, in the progress of a war avovedly of adding to the borthens of his people; Endertaken and conducted against her re- this plan being intended to prevent fariter sources, had risen superior to her difficul- taxation. It had been the fashion formerly ties, and had in this period of its progress to argue for ebe necessity of relieving posalmost equalised its income with its expen. terity from burthens, but now the argufitute. In expressing his approbation of ment was to relieve the present moment, the plati' of the noble lori, even oti' its owu and leave the buttbens to posterity. He merits, he felt that opinioni cônsitlerably was a friend to the plan of leaving the bur. Strengthened, by contrasting it with those thens to affect posterity, because he found recommended by the hon. gentlemen on the system had not been prejudicial to as, the opposite side, which increased the pub- so far as concerned the burthens landed fic burthens in the present instance, and in down by our aiicestors. But he had an oba ño degree diminished the accumulation of jéction to the complicated machinery of the public debt.

the noble lord's plani, which, under the spe Mr. Johnstone could not hope to make cious garb of complicated details, was, is

fact, only to raise two millions and a half that expenditure, it would create disapa year, over the amount of the sinking pointment to the public. He trusted if fund. The hon. gent. then said, that if il such an addition should be necessary, it millions were to be raised annually, in ad- would induce the noble lord to make not dition to the war, taxes, and interest to be parsimonious. but economical retrench. provided only for the difference between ments in the public expenditure. It hack che amount of the sinking fund and the been said, that the sinking fund night loan, the difference between the sums raised become too great, but he had no appreby his plan and that of the noble lord, hensions of that description, as that would be 44 millions; and by the noble fund had been intended to act against the lord's plan 2,051,0001. permanent. taxes debt, and he wished to see that reduwould be imposed in 20 years, whilst by his ced. as early as possible. The appropriaonly 1,700,000/. would be imposed, and the tion of the war taxes bad been stated to whole of the war taxes would, in the be a violation of the pledges given to former case, be mortgaged, which, in the the public, and a disappointinent of their latter, would be free. It was natural for reasonable hopes, but necessity called fore every person to be attached to the produc- it, and it was only to be feared, that under tion of his own brain, and be certainly a pressure of future circumstances, the mi. thought his plan superior to that of the nister of the day might make the addie noble lord's; as, according to his plan, tional appropriation of 4 per centthe each loan would be paid. off. in 45 years, ground of future loans. If the taxes apaccording to the engagement to the public propriated should not be productive, para creditor.

lianxent would be bound to make them · Mr. Bankes thought that the hon. mem- good. But he thought the property tax, ber who had just sat down, had taken the more equalized between the landed and sjoking fund into his calculation zwo ways, moneyed interest, not descending so low as both as a means of' redeeming the debt, at present, with an allowance to persons and as a fund applicable to the service of having small incomes, with larger families, the year. There was a fallacy, therefore, in and facilities of recovery of the tax when his reasoning. If the government was only proved by those who had no right to pay, to provide for the interest of the excess of would be better retained than the other war the loan, over the amount of the sinking taxes. Taxes which came in by a cire fund, and to provide for the remainder out cuitous operation were felt more than a diof the proceeds of the sinking fund, that rect tax. But if any thing could keep fund would be stationary during the war. down the price of articles, and insure the Should the war last ten years, its progress economical expenditure proposed by the would therefore be interrupted, and the re- noble lord, it was the cessation from taxademption of the loans would be effected in tion for 3 years. As to subsidies to foreign 55, instead of 45 years. He objected to all powers, he had never been a friend to them the projects that had been proposed as sub- and did not approve of the grant of them stitutes for that of the voble lord opposite, in older or more recent times. He regretbecause they all were founded on the printed the whole of the expenditure of that cipie of invading the sinking fund, which description, because the powers of the conwas sacred, and not to be touched, except tinent always pursued their own objects in cases of extreme necessity. The plan of and interests. It was difficult, neveribes the noble lord afforded: note: prospects to less, for an individual member of that house the country than any other, because it was to oppose such grants, when recommended: to release it from taxation for 3 years, on the great and grave authority of persons without diminishing its resources; and these who had access to documents shewing the 3. years were.likely to be more important, views of foreign powers. He approved-of: than the same number of years in any pe- many parts of the plan of the noble-lord, riod of our history. This relief to the and. be, lamented that other parts of it country was wise, in the bope that Provi- should be contained in it, but on the whole dence, who had so often signally assisted be thought that the plans which had been this country, would again interfere in its recommended by his hon, friend, would behalf.. He did not think it wise, however, not obviate any of the imperfections of the of the noble lord, to have stated the expen, noble lord's plan, and would augmentditure of the country so low as 32,000,0001. Many of them. because if ary addition were to be made to Mr. Ruse observed, that the hop. genta

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who had spoken last had approved of the to substitute other taxes in their place. plan of the noble lord, which was only an But it appeared :0 him a strange illustraanticipation of the war taxes, though he tion of the impolicy of continuing the tonliad expressed a doubt of the taxes being nage tax, that the German linens rivalled productive in time of peace. The hon. Our linens in the West-India market, begent. had stated, that it would be better to cause no German linens could reach our continue the property tax than the other islands but through this country. war taxes. But he apprehended that the Mr. Perceval at any other time and appropriated war taxes would not redeem under any other circumstances, would have the loans for which they miglit be mort- been disposed to trouble the bouse more gaged in 14 years, but would require a at length, than at that hour of the nighthe much longer time, in proportion as the was inclined to do. When the bills should price of the funds would rise, and with this be brought in, on the resolutions of the impression he thought it would be madness noble lord, he should have sufficient opporto pledge the war taxes. The right hon. tunities of delivering his sentiments upon gent. then repeated his former observations them, and he should feel 'it bis duty to op

that none of the war taxes, ex- pose them in every stage. The taxes procept the property tax, could be expected posed to be continued hy the first resolu. to be productive in time of peace. He was tion, were represented as not likely to be not prepared to agree to any one of the productive in peace, and to this it was anupany projects that had been submitted to swered, if they were unproductive, parthe house, but as no inconvenience could liament would be bound to make them arise from the delay of one year, he again good. If they were to be made permanent pressed the necessity of putting off the final only with a view to have them afterwards adoption of the measure till next session. repealed, this would be to make the act of He particularly objected to the continuance the legislature speak a language which it of the duty on tonnage after the war. This did not mean. İn the same way the procountry was at present in possession of perty tax, which the house bad been given the whole trąde of the world, and no per- to understand, in the openiug speech of the son could be so sanguine as to suppose, noble lord, was to be repealed at the end that we should not have rivals for that trade of the war, had been in his subsequent exin time of peace. A duty on tonnage and planations represented as liable to be code landage had been laid on in the reign of|tinued in peace, yet the second resolution Charles II. when the principles of political pledged the house positively to the repeal economy were not so well understood as of the war tax the moment the war should at present, but this had been taken off in cease.' The first resolution was to pledge the reign of William III. so far as related the war taxes, which were afterwards to be 10 woollen manufactures, and was entirely repealed; and the second resolution dedone away in 1720, in the reign of George clared, that the property tax, 'which was II. Was a duty repealed in that reign to likely to be continued, should be repealed. be resorted to in the present? It would be if the taxes inentioned in the first resua serious motive for the consideration of lution were to be repealed, why enact their the house, that the German linens rivalled continuance ? and if the property tax was our manufactures of that article in our to be continued, why resolve that it should West-India islands, and even undersold be repealed ? He thought that it was im. them. The plan of the noble lord re- proper in the house to legislate for futurity. sembled that of Mr. Neckar, which had These observations be made with a view to been the chief cause of the French revo- press the suggestion of his right hon. friend lution. He could not reconcile to him that the provision for the loan should be self to give a silent vote on the subject, charged upon any fund, and the discussion considering, as he did, the resolutions of of the noble lord's plan deferred to next the noble lord fraught with the greatest session. It had been said, that the duties, mischief to the country.

if appropriated, might afterwards be rea Mr. Corry observed, that the right hon. pealed; and this he looked upon as the gent. had impugned the plan of the noble best argument that had been urged in fa. lord, on the ground that the taxes would vour of the measure. The plan of the not be productive during peace. But if noble lord might be very good, and his so, the parliament would be bound to make majesty's ministers might have bestowed good any deficiency that might arise, or all due attention upon it, but yet the house

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had not had sufficient time to consider 'sof delicacy and scrupulosity which gentlemen complicated a question. It was only that on the other side professed to feel for the day that some of the papers, necessary to strict observance of the public faith. form a judgment on the subject, were laid Yet it on any side there was any disposition before the house.

to infringe it, that disposition or tendency - Lord Henry Petty maintained that the was to be found in the plan of the noble resolutions contained no pledge whatever lord. Let the different acts be referred to, for the continuance of any particular tax. more particularly that of 1792, for securing The object of the plan was to provide for inviolate the public faith respecting the sinke the exigencies of a protracted war, and at ing fund, and it would be seen how far the the same time, by abstaining from imposing present plan was reconcileable either with fresh taxes, to relieve the country, to reibe spirit or the letter of these acts. pair its strength and recruit its resources, Mr. Vansittart pledged himself to prove whilst its operation would provide the upon the same occasion, that there was oo - means of resorting again to taxation, if that inconsistency between the plan of his must be the case, a resort which would noble friend, and the acts referred to by the still remain, even supposing the plan to- hon. gent. tally to fail. His lordship entered into a Mr. Canning, declared his most decided comparison of the plan he had proposed, objection to the whole principle of the and those suggested on the other side, and measure : at that late hour he should not

contended that his plan had this great ad- trespass upon the time of the house, but ? vantage, that it would operate to increase should reserve himself for a more conve

the sinking fund, in a larger proportion to nient opportunity.-The question was then the debt, up to a certain point when its loudly called for, and the resolutions read excesses were to be taken), whilst the plans a second time, and agreed to. proposed on the other side would operate to increase considerably the debt, and

HOUSE OF COMMONS. deave the sinking fund as it now stood.

Friday, February 20. He proposed, after a certain accumulation [Minutes.] This day the following of the sinking fund, to appropriate the inembers were chosen by ballot to try the excesses; but they would attack that fund merits of the Downpatrick election:-R. immediately. He remembered a story of P. Scudamore, esq. B. Cook, esq. W. M. a man who said he had a sure method of Pitt, esq. hon. W. Howard, D. Giddy, curing sheep of all disorders, and that was esq. A Strahan, esq. lord Althorpe, F. J. by cutting their throats ; so gentlemen on Wilder, esq. D. P. Coke, esq. hon. C. the other side would get at the sinking Herbeit, J. Wharton, esq. hon. W. Brofund by immediately taking it, and this derick, Thos. Kemp, .esq. nominees, H. constituted the boasted simplicity of their Martin, esq. C. W. Wynne, esq.-Mr. plans. His plan, on the contrary, by the Grenville (from the commissioners for exproportionable magnitude of the sinking ecuting the office of lord high admiral) acfund, would insure to the stockholder a quainted the house, that their lordships certain market for his stock, and instead of having judged it expedient that captain sir mortgaging all the resources of the country, Home Popham should be tried by a court as some hon. gentlemen had contended, martial for having quitted the Cape of Good there would, if it continued to operate, be a Hope, for the purpose of attacking the sum of 25,000,0001. available for the ser- Spanish settlements in the Rio de la Plata, vice of the country in the year 1822. without having received any direction or

Lord Castlereagh contended that the authority wbatever for that purpose, had system before the house was a much greater accordingly issued their warrant to the infraction of the act of 1786, than that marshal of the bigh court of admiralty for which had been done in 1802, which had taking him into custody; that, as captain been alluded to in the course of the de- sir Home Popham is a member of this bate. After touching on several other house, their lordships had thought it a repoints, his lordship observed, that he would spect due to the house, to inform them of speak more fully on the subject next Mon- his commitment, and to lay before them a day, when the resolutions which he had copy of the warrant, by virtue of wbich submitted to the house would be under he is now in custody. And Mr. Gren ville consideration.

delivered in at the table, a copy of the Mr. Huskisson bad heard much of the warrant to the marshal of the admiralty, VoL, VIII.


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