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outlines of his view of the subject should be before the house before the discussion of the plan. But yet he was under considerable embarrassment from not having been able to obtain from the noble lord the subsequent tables, which were wanting to enable him to complete his own view; though he admitted that this did not proceed from any unwillingness in the noble lord to furnish them. But certainly the embarrassment was excessive, to be called upon, with

plan not for one year, but for 20 years, circumstance in which the credit of parli ament was materially involved. The noble lord proposed to call upon the house to decide upon the first resolution. He admitted that this did not preclude the parliament from taking up the subject again, but

ed that his resolution stated a smaller charge | sary than it supposed. But the objection than would really be necessary. It stated, did not at all attach to the 9th resolution. that in the ninth year a loan of between His modification would still relieve the four and five millions would be necessary noble lord from the mortgage of the war to be charged on the consolidated fund. taxes, and from his loans of 32 millions. But he had not noticed the progressive Whatever advantage the noble lord would sums, and consequently the progressive derive from his increased sinking fund, yet charges on the consolidated fund. It was in that would not counterbalance the inconvenifact necessary to provide, not only for the ence to the money market. It was sufficiently sum advanced but also for the sum staken obvious that they wished for no vexatious defrom the consolidated fund, and that thus for lay; he had exposed himself to the risk of fal 9 years taxes to the amount of 6,019,000l.ling into mistakes, from his anxiety that the would be requisite at the close of the ninth year. The two grounds on which he wished to modify the noble lord's plan, were these: 1st. To relieve him from the necessityof mortgaging the war taxes; if his modification did not do that, it did nothing; 2dly, To limit the amount of the loans within the year, and consequently the charge. By the noble lord's plan, the loans would rise from 12 to 32 millions, and what he wanted was to relieve the market from the dangerous effects that would result from the borrow-such a short preparation, to decide upon a ing of such an enormous sum as 32 millions within the year. His modification was expensive for the present, but, if acted upon, it would come to this, that at the end of nine years, you would have an alternative of acting according to circumstances for the next eleven years. If the war continues for the whole twenty years, then he admit-it was unseemly for parliament to be placed ted that it could not be carried on without in such a situation, that it must adopt a plan additional loans, and an addition to the per- for 20 years, and then be obliged, like chilmanent taxes. But if peace should be dren, to revise it in a year or two. This made on or before the 9th year, then no exercise of discretion would be attended new taxes would be required in addition with great embarrassment and loss of parliato those which the noble lord proposed, for mentary character. He really therefore the excesses of the sinking fund would be wished that in the further proceedings on disposable for the loan of the preceding this subject, some method should be agreed year. But supposing the case of war, then upon, which would prevent this embarrass 3 millions must be raised to be distributedment, and enable parliament to decide on over a period of 6 years, and the balance a full view of the subject. For this pur in favour of his plan, even on the supposi-pose, two courses might be adopted. The tion of twenty years war, would be the dif- noble lord might allow it to lie over for ference between 6 millions and 21 millions some time, till the members should have pledged. He objected to the system of had full time to consider it in the present double loans; first a loan, then the interest, session; or if that should not be agreed to, and next a loan to pay the interest of the then as a dernier resort he would propose interest. But if this plan was to be acted that the noble lord should only act upon his on, then it ought to be for a period as short plan for one year, and leave parliament as possible, and he thought it should be free to investigate it in the interval between confined to 9 years, instead of 20. What this and the next sessions. It was so emever embarrassment there might be in the barrassing and difficult, that the noble lord, modification, it arose out of the noble or his successor, must desist from the exelord's own complicated system. The spirit, cution of it. This was his opinion, and he therefore, of his 8th resolution was still hoped the loble lord would not press it into just, though greater loans would be neces-a committee at present, when he must know

Mr. Long rose.

The noble lord, he

observed, must recollect that he had told the house that various tables were to be distributed, in order to enable that house to acquire a full and complete view of his plan. Gentlemen had had them but for a short time, and he submitted to the noble lord's candour, whether it was possible even for those who were conversant with subjects of this nature, to make themselves masters of it within a period so limited. It would certainly give more satisfaction if the consideration should be postponed for a few days. However as the house was called upon to discuss the noble lord's plan, he would now offer the few observations that at present occurred to him.

Lord Henry Petty observed, that the right honourable gentleman had better state these in the committee.

that parliament was so little prepared to enter upon the consideration of the plan. The accounts which he had called for would soon be before the house, and then the noble lord might proceed in the present session, but now it was merely a question of confidence on the part of the ministers, and submission on the part of the house. He hoped the noble lord would not proceed with this intended plan on the spur of the moment. This improper haste would be attended with great mischief, and in the end prove highly derogatory to the character of parliament. He concluded by moving, that the consideration of his Resolutions should be postponed to that day se'nnight. Lord Henry Petty did not think it necessary to enter upon that part of the noble lord's speech, which contained his amended statement. He certainly would not object to any day for the consideration of the noble Mr. Long replied, that he thought it lord's resolutions, only, he must observe, more regular to proceed now, as his objecthat they must come under review in dis- tion went rather to the principle of the plan cussing the present plan. He wished only than to the detail. He observed, however, to say a few words with respect to the de- in continuation, that he did not object even lay solicited by the noble lord. He denied to the principle to a certain extent. It might that this was a question of confidence on possibly be a fatal error to adhere too the one part, and submission on the other. pertinaciously to the present plan of taxMinisters wished to adopt the plan, notation, and though he thought that the noble from a vain confidence in themselves, but lord's plan was carried to too great an exupon a full and deliberate investigation by tent, yet he was fully aware of the difficulparliament. It would be recollected that ties attending his situation. He did not, he had first moved the resolutions two or however, consider the difficulty which the three weeks ago, that a fortnight was allow- noble lord found last session, in finding out ed to consider them, that this period ended proper objects of taxation, as a proof that last Wednesday, and that it was only on new taxes could not be raised. But he that day that the proposal was made for fully admitted that it was highly expedient going into the committee. All he asked to impose no new taxes, for the present, if now was, to vote them in the committee: it could be avoided. This was his opinion, the report would come up next Wednesday, and it was sanctioned by that of the noble and they might then be further considered lord's predecessor. New taxes to any great and discussed. They might also be discus-extent would occasion a very heavy pressure sed in the different stages of the bill, which it was desirable to carry forward with all reasonable dispatch, that ministers might proceed to the general financial plan. This dispatch was not required from any difficulties arising from the want of an immediate supply, but because it was desirable to proceed to contract for the loan as soon as possible.-The motion of lord Castlereagh for the postponement of his own resolutions was then agreed to.

Lord Henry Petty moved that the House should resolve itself into a committee to consider further of the Finances of the Country, which was agreed to. On the motion for the Speaker's leaving the chair,

on the people at present. Then what other resources were there? There were two, namely, the war taxes and the sinking fund. His noble friend (Castlereagh) objected to the plan of compound loans. But whether the borrowing was from the consolidated fund or the war taxes, there must be supplementary loans. To a certain extent, therefore, he saw no objection to borrowing from the war taxes. But he must object to the system of pledging the whole of the war taxes, independent of the property tax, and at last the property tax also. The noble lord ought to borrow only on such as might be supposed to yield their fullest amount in time of peace. He might continue the war for five years, by borrowing

the object of the original proposer of the sinking fund that it should be allowed to accumulate so as to extinguish the debt. The intention was principally to keep down the debt, so as to prevent it from becoming inconvenient to the public. For the proof of this it was only necessary to look at the plan of 1786. The maximum of 4 millions was then established, and after the fund had attained to this, then the interest was to be at the disposal of parliament; so, from the year 1808, 200,000l. of taxes might be taken off annually, or applied to other purposes, as the case might be. But the noble viscount who was chancellor of the exchequer in 1802, altered this plan, and undoubtedly then had the full assent of a right hon. friend of his (Mr. Pitt) now no more. No one was more ready to submit to the superior judgment of his right hon. friend alinded to than he was, and especially on a matter of this sort, but still he felt great objections to the plan then adopted, and since that time he certainly had seen no reason to alter his opinion. But he did not object to the borrowing from the war taxes, if this should be confined to 5 years. The noble lord imposed no new taxes for the first 3 years. He highly approved of that, not merely on account of the relief which it afforded to the people, but also because it rested upon principles of sound policy. For by this means taxation might be had recourse to with greater vigour af terwards if this should be necessary, and besides, this circumstance would have the best effects upon the permanent taxes. If, therefore, the period had been confined to five years, he could have had no objection to the plan. The noble lord might have, in the mean time, observed the progress of the sinking fund, of the war taxes, and of the permanent taxes, and borrowed upon these as he should find it expedient. But to take a period of twenty years, and to proceed upon the supposition that thirtytwo millions only would be required for the war expenditure, was to legislate on grounds the most uncertain and erroneous that could possibly be conceived.

on this portion of the war taxes. The sum
of 11 millions might be annually borrowed
in this way, or 13 millious, if necessary,
and for those sums the permanently pro-
ductive war taxes, with the expiring annui-
ties, would afford an ample provision for
five years. He thought the war taxes ought
not to be pledged to a greater amount, as
it was contrary to the policy of this coun-
try. The convoy tax, for instance, could
not properly continue beyond the duration
of the war. The taxes on tea and spirits
also would certainly be diminished in their
amount during peace. Could the noble
lord possibly expect that these would al-
ways yield their present amount? He surely
could not, and yet this plan took the whole
of these taxes at their highest amount.
The noble lord might so manage as to in-
crease the amount of the war taxes, when
the loans must be procured on disadvanta- |
geous terms, and diminish their amount
when the loans could be contracted for on
easy terms.
He ought to recollect the na-
ture of his system of ways and means. He
ought to consider the furious objections
made to the property tax, which was called
a system not of taxation, but of confisca-
tion. He ought therefore to pause before
he pledged this and other taxes.--But if
he had great doubts as to the propriety of
pledging the war taxes to the full extent
proposed by the noble lord, he had still
stronger doubts respecting the data on
which the plan was founded. The noble
lord supposed that the war expences would
not exceed 32 millions annually during the
whole period. He could not reasonably
conclude that there was any probability that
this would be the case. He ought to have
taken into account the subsidies that might
be wanted, and the depreciation of money
which must take place in the course of that
time. It was true that the noble lord had
stated, that for subsidies a distinct provision
must be made, but at the same time they
ought rather to have been taken into the
general account of expenditure, as it was
unusual to provide for subsidies distinctly
by that name. The right hon. gent. then
stated his objection to the system of the ac-
cumulation of the sinking fund, and provid-who
ing for the loans at 5 per cent. instead of
one per cent. according to the old plan,
as it afforded an undue advantage to the
stockholder, at the expence of the public.
He had great objections to the plan of ac-
cumulation adopted in 1802. It never was

Mr. Tierney rose. The right hon. gent.

had just sat down, objected to the period of 20 years, and thought that the fittest stage to stop at was 5 years. But his reasoning proceeded on erroneous grounds, when he supposed that this plan was intended to legislate to 20 years. It did no such thing. It merely held out

what might be done in 20 years, certain originaliy intended solely for the benefit of data being allowed. It did nothing what- the stockholder. The advantage was given ever to tie up the hands of the house, or to the stockholder, but the fund was printo prevent them from adopting such al- cipally intended for the benefit of the pubterations as circumstances might render lic. He thought the measure of 1802 an necessary. It was no disadvantage to argue improper one, and he and another were with a view to a period of 20 years, as the the only persons who spoke openly against argument was not to be conclusive or bind-it on that occasion; and contended that ing; but to satisfy the house that so much the allowing of the sinking fund to accumight be done in twenty years, would not mulate would be inconvenient to the country. prevent them from exercising their dis-Then, what was the remedy? The noble cretion afterwards. The right hon. gent. lord had chosen the proper medium by agreed, that it would be inconvenient to his plan. He had given the stockholder impose new taxes at present: that was con- the benefit of the 5 per cent. instead of one ceded by the noble lord near him, and per cent. at present, with a view to the by the general voice of the country, not great loans that might be necessary afteronly by those who merely wished to be wards, so that the whole was for the benerelieved from the pressure of taxation, but fit of the country, which was the great obgenerally by those who looked to the ject of the sinking fund. It was intended policy of the thing. It did certainly afford to facilitate the loans, the immediate ina hope that recourse might be had with crease of the sinking fund. That was the more vigour to the permanent taxes, and reason why so large a per centage was he was glad the right hon. gent. had said allowed at first.-Why, then, the right hon. so, because this served to remove the ob- gent. talked about the improbability of the jection which he himself had made with re- war expenditure being confined to 32 milspect to the amount of the permanent lions. But his noble friend had not pledged taxes. As to the permanent taxes, he himself that this alone should be the agreed that some of them might fall short amount of the expenditure. His object of their present amount, but this was no was to shew, that supposing the war exobjection whatever, unless the plan went to penditure should not exceed the enormous cut off the power and the means of im- sum of 32 millions, still the war might be posing taxes hereafter. Now, so far was continued for so long a time without any the plan from doing this, that even by additional taxes. This was a circumstance the right hon. gent.'s own confession, it which must occasion astonishment in every tended to render the sources of taxation one, and must excite amazement from one more productive. The plan was not abso- end of Europe to the other. The right lutely wedded to the present taxes. Others hon. gent. might say, that an additional might be imposed, if there should be a de- sum would be wanted; why, then, loans ficiency. The whole proceeded on this, must be provided to answer that. The that such was to be the amount of loans right honourable gentleman had then advertif the war continued for such a time.ed to the subsidies, and said that these had Where the taxes proved unproductive, others must be provided to supply their place, and according to the right hon. gent.'s own shewing, it was better to have recourse to taxes afterwards, if they should be wanted, than to raise them at present.The next point that called for observation was, the extent to which the war taxes were to be pledged. The right hon. gent. agreed that it was a proper thing to pledge the war taxes, but not to the extent pro posed, and thought that it was improper to have a 5 per cent. sinking fund, instead of one per cent. as formerly. But this was entirely of the nature of a bargain with the stockholder. He agreed with his right hon. friend that the sinking fund was not VOL. VIII.

not been usually provided for distinctly as subsidies, but had been included in the loans. But he had never heard of a loan where the object of subsidies was concealed. They were generally provided for distinctly by way of loan, or by a vote of credit, which was understood to apply to unforeseen expences. The plan took the basis of 32 millions, because some basis must be adopted. Any one might take 34 millions if he pleased, and calculate the advantages of the plan upon that. He would only have to make the requisite allowances, and that was all the difference. But in the mean time it was a good thing when 32millions could be produced, and the only question was. whether this was the best

3 F

mode of managing that sum. There was no doubt as to the sum being produced. That being the present sum requisite for the war expences, and that sum being produced, this plan proceeded upon the supposition that thirty-two millions would be the amount of the war expenditure. As to the depreciation of money, he did not very well under and what the right hon. gent. meant by that argument, for, if there was any mode better than another to prevent the depreciation of money, it was to prevent any additional taxation. It was curious then to have this thrown in the teeth of those who were doing that which of all other things tended most to prevent the depreciation which was apprehended. That this depreciation might take place, however, to a certain extent, was not at all unlikely; but it was one of the advantages of this plan that it confined it within proper bounds. This was all that was necessary in reply to the right hon. gent. as he had not entered into the details of the plan. His objections, therefore, to the principle appeared to be ill-founded.-The house then went into a committee.

naturally expected, therefore, to hear some
proposal similar in principle to those: the
Resolution, however, under our considera-
tion is the converse of that principle, as it
not only has a direct tendency to interrupt
the progress of the old Sinking fund, in
paying of the present debt, but anticipates
our resources instead of providing new ones.
The truth is, which cannot be concealed,
that instead of following up the principle
established and acted upon by my late right
hon. friend, of increasing the sinking fund,
and diminishing the debt, it is proposed to
us to adopt one, which in the course of its
operation, will have the effect of diminish-
ing the Sinking Fund, and increasing to an
immense amount the capital of the debt.
Any wise and practicable plan that could be
devised for avoiding, as far as may be pru-
dent, the imposition of taxes, arising out of
the systems alluded to, must be received
with as much partiality by me as by any
member in this house, considering who was
the author of those; but nothing can lead
me to approve of any diversion of the Sink-
ing Fund from the purposes to which it is
now applicable by law, without all the con-
sequences of that having been previously
and most attentively weighed.
averse to the departure from it in 1802,
foreseing the danger of a further deviation;
and it was with reluctance that Mr. Pitt
gave his consent to it, as is well known to
others as well as to myself. The authors of
the present scheme admit, as they must do,
"that they take in aid certain excesses to

I was

Mr. Rose addressed the Committee nearly as follows:-I am aware of the disadvantage under which any one must rise in this committee, to make observations at all unfavourable to a plan which holds out to the country a certain prospect of not being subjected to taxes for 3 years to come; aud that for a considerable period, such as shall be necessary will be to no considerable amount. Objections, how-accrue from the present Sinking Fund." ever, of so serious and important a nature which is explained by a statement, that it press upon my mind upon the subject is meant the application of the old Sinking that unless they shall be removed by the Fund shall cease when it shall be equal to noble lord, they will compel me, in the the interest of the present debt; by which discharge of my duty as a member of par-I take it for granted is meant, the amount liament, to resist at least the immediate of the debt at the time when the income adoption of it, especially on the basis pro- of the Sinking Fund shall be equal to the posed; under a persuasion that if, contrary interest of the debt, and not to the amount to the present impression on my mind, the of the interest of the debt at this time. It scheme shall be found to be a good one, is true that when Mr. Pitt established the other means than those proposed must be Sinking Fund, it was limited to 4,000,000l. devised for carrying it into effect. High and the surplus was to be at the disposal eulogiums were bestowed by the noble lord of parliament; but if that had not been alin the course of his opening Speech, on the tered in 1802, to compensate for the Sinksystem of the Sinking Fund, and on the one ing Fund having been provided by Mr.Adfor raising large sums within the year, to-dington, for 86,000,000l. of capital then wards carrying on the war; and great praise funded, there can be no doubt but that the was very liberally given to the incompara-surplus above the 4,000,000l. and the anble man (Mr. Pitt) whom this country and nuities as they shall fall in, would have been the world have had the misfortune to lose,left to the aid of the Fund. I must at the for having established those systems. I same time, do Mr. Addington the justice to

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