per Cent. Sinking Fund, may be considered as an Annuity of forty three years. Payments on account thereof. 43,344,000 Payments as above...... Total Payments........ 60,144,000 PRESENT SYSTEM. The Interest and Sinking Fund, on a Payments to be made on acct. there- ................... 60,144,000 out, or from the rise of labour, or of the price of stores within. He had particularly adverted to contingent circumstances, and stated, that in proportion as any increase took place in the expenditure from either of these causes, that increase was to be provided for by an increase of the supplemental loans, and an increase of the interest thereon. Another change which he had adverted to was one which might arise from the failure of any of the duties imposed; but for this there was a provision in the plan, because parliament was pledged to make good such deficiency by other duties. He begged to call the attention of the house to this fact, that neither he with his feeble powers, nor those who Excess of the Charge of Redemption were much wiser than him, had ever had by new system 29,184,000l." the presumption to state to the house that Lord Henry Petty did not feel it ne- they could anticipate the future, or prepare cessary to say more than a few words on any plan which would cover all the exigen the present occasion, because it was neither cies of a war for 20 years without any desirable for the house nor for himself that change. The noble lord had observed in he should follow the noble lord through the same way upon what he termed the his very able seeech, and the clear view he narrow view taken by him of the exhad given of his objections to the New penditure of the country. But in taking Financial System that had been submitted that view, he had no certain criterion to go to the house on a former night. It was, by but the expenditure of the present year: however, necessary for him to make a few every other criterion would have been loose observations upon one point, which had and uncertain. The noble lord had said, been touched upon by the noble lord, in that he should have taken the average of order to prevent any misconception of what an extraordinary War Expenditure, but had fallen from himself on a former night had stated, that it would be unsafe for him, from going further. The great objection looking to what had happened on the conof the noble lord to the system that had tinent, considering the change that had tabeen submitted to the house was, that it ken place in Europe, to deceive himself by went to legislate for the future. Though taking any standard of expenditure from the noble lord admitted that it would be such a source. It was rather extraordinary, right to look to the future in the arrange- that, when the noble lord objected to any ment of any system, he did not think it legislature for the future, he wished to take desirable that any legislative enactment the possible future expenditure, in the should be resorted to for that purpose. event of a British army being employed to He had himself stated, that it would be co-operate with the powers of the continecessary for the house to look prospective-nent, in the course of 3 or 4 years, in which ly to the situation of the country, in the adoption of any system; but that it would not be desirable to make any legislative enactment on an assumption of future events, which might prove contrary to all calculation, and were solely under the controul of Providence. He had expressly asserted, that if any essential alteration were to take place in the plan, it would not arise from any such alteration of events, or of the circumstances of the country. What were the changes that were likely to take place? An increase of expenditure, from the demand for foreign subsidies from with time they might be wholly subjugated, or, what they all most desired, might have reestablished their independence, as the criterion of expenditure. Having stated this, he had only to request of the house and of the country, that they would receive his proposition such as it was, and as it candidly professed to be, and not look upon him as responsible for any alteration that might take place. If he continued to fill the situation which he then held, it would be his duty to explain the cause of the change when it occurred. He could not but remark, that, in the plan that had been own honour, dignity, and independency, submitted by the noble lord, he had avail- lar that the Petition, and also the Resolued himself of what had never been laid tion of that house of the 10th of Decemdown by him as a single or separate prin- ber, 1779, should be read. The Petition ciple. The noble lord had taken advan- was then read, as likewise the Resolution tage of the excess of the Sinking Fund, of 1779, which declared. That it is without adverting to the concurrent prin-highly criminal in any minister or minisciple of adding to that Fund, which was a ters, or other servants under the crown of leading feature of his system. He had Great Britain, directly or indirectly, to use himself, however, proposed to equalise the the powers of office in the election of repreoperation of the Sinking Fund by adding sentatives to serve in parliament; and an atto it now with a view to take from ittempt at such influence will at all times hereafter; but the noble lord had taken all be resented by this house, as aimed at its the beneficial result, and left out of his plau the operating cause. He should not then enter farther into the consideration of the plan of the noble lord, but trusted that the adjourned debate would take place on the most convenient day, which he supposed would be Monday next, the day of the discussion of his own Resolutions, beyond which day he could not consent to have the discussion deferred, in consideration of the effect that the delay might have on the Ways and Means of the year. He was ready to give the noble lord all the assistance in his power, and assured him that he would, not only in this instance, but at all times, be ready to attend to any sugges-ed that hon. gent. with having written to tions from him, or from any of the hon. gentlemen near him. as an infringement of the dearest rights of every subject throughout the Empire, and tending to sap the basis of this free and happy constitution.'-The hon. gent. then proceeded to state, that in bringing this question under the consideration of the house, he was actuated solely by a sense of public duty. So far from entertaining any hostile disposition towards the hon. member who was particularly alluded to in the petition, he felt the highest respect for him, and considered him only as having acted under the directions of the government. The petition, it would be recollected, charg the Barrack-Master-General, directing him to use the whole extensive influence of the Barrack Department, in order to promote the election of the candidates recommended by the ministers for the representation of the county of Southampton. This interference was the more extraordinary and unprecedented, because the influence of the government was otherwise very extensive in that county. The consequence of this letter from the Secretary of the treasury to the Barrack Master General, and of the activity of that department, was, that an hon. gent, who had represented Mr. Rose did not propose to enter then into the discussion of the Resolutions that had been submitted. He wished merely to state, that he was not satisfied with the data of the noble lord opposite, or of his noble friend, though he thought those of his noble friend less liable to objection. On Monday he should state his opinions on the subject, though he should not throw any obstacle in the way of the ways and means of the year. The plan of the noble lord, however appeared to him a permanent one; and, if once adopted, it would not be pos-that county for 16 years, with fidelity and sible to make any alteration in it for 20 years, without convulsing the whole system. The debate was then adjourned to Monday, HOUSE OF COMMONS. credit, had been unsuccessful at the last election. If the freeholders of the county had been left to the free, unbiassed, and independent exercise of their suffrages, he was confident that that gentleman would now be seated as their representative in that house. It was for this invasion of their Friday, February 13. rights, that the petitioners laid their case [PETITION RESPECTING THE HAMP- before parliament, and were anxiously SHIRE ELECTION.] Mr. Asheton Smith wishing for an opportunity of proving the rose pursuant to notice, to submit a motion allegations in their petition to that house. to the house on the subject of the Petition, They had an anxious hope and wish that which he had the honour to present on a the house would take such steps, as in its former day (see p. 684). But before he wisdom would seem meet, in order to pre. should proceed further, he thought it regu-vent in future the occurrence of such un constitutional practices. Otherwise the representation of that great county would be under the controul of the government, and the most valuable rights of the people would be annihilated. He trusted that the house of commons would ever be ready to resist such unjustifiable attempts to infringe the franchises of the electors, and thereby to undermine the independence and integrity of the representative body of the nation. He therefore moved, that the Petition be referred to the Committee of Privileges to examine the matter thereof, and to report the same, together with their opinion thereon, to the house. Sir Henry Mildmay rose to second the motion of his hon. friend. The allegations of that petition had been ably brought under the view of the house by the manliness, the moderation, and the talents of his hon. friend. In touching upon the subject of this petition, he confessed he felt considerable difficulty, because of the prominent share he had borne on the occasion to which it refered; because any observations he should make upon it, might perhaps be considered as the result of his feelings of disappointment. But under all the circumstances of the case, he considered it not only a duty he owed to the individuals, whose rights had been invaded, but a still greater duty to the house, to the public, and to himself, to trace, to detect, and to expose such unconstitutional interference on the part of his majesty's ministers. This interference had been exerted in a most unjustifiable and open manner on that occasion, not only in defiance of the principles of the constitution, but in the teeth of a resolution of that house. His hon. friend had not, by his motion, called upon the house to come to any hasty or premature decision; he had only proposed to them to adopt a proceeding analogous to what had been pursued on a former occasion, of nearly a similar nature. On searching for precedents, however, he admitted that there were none to be found precisely analogous to the present case. But the unconstitutional interference with the freedom of election was no less a subject worthy of the attention of that house. When this petition had been presented, a noble lord opposite (lord Temple) had stated, that the petition had for a long time occupied the public attention, and that much pains had been taken to poison the public mind upon the subject of it. From the gestures of the hon. gents. on the treasury bench, he supposed they conceived that to have been the case; but the statement was utterly unsupported by any proof, and, as far as the petitioners were concerned, was wholly unfounded in fact. He was glad that the petition was at length submitted to the consideration of the house, and he agreed entirely with the noble lord, that if they should fail in substantiating the charge contained in it, on them the whole blame and censure should fall. But, if they should succeed in proving the allega tions of the petition: if they should make out a stronger case even than the charges in the petition amounted to, he trusted the noble lord would agree with him that the house was bound to adopt some proceedings with a view to do justice between the parties, with a view to redeem the solemn pledge, which it had given in the resolution of 1779, in which it declared it highly criminal in a minister of the crown to use the power of his office for the purpose of influencing an election. He trusted too, that the noble lord would not employ the weight of his commanding eloquence, nor the government extend the protecting shield of its power, in order to arrest the measures which might appear to the house necessary on such an occasion. And here he wished to advert to certain particularities in the situation of the county of Southampton, which rendered the transaction still more culpable. There was no county of equal extent, population, and wealth, in which the government, independant of the interference complained of in the petition, had so much influence as in Hampshire. There was more of church, collegiate, and copyhold property, which gave no right to the elective franchise in that county, than in any other of equal extent, consequently there was less of freehold property and fewer electors. The interference of government, therefore, struck more effectually at the independance of the representation. There was also in that county one of the principal naval arsenals of the kingdom, the number of persons employed in which, that had freeholds, exceeded 400. These were persons, constantly, regularly, and exclusively employed by government in the docks, and subject to its controul. There was also in the neighbourhood of Portsmouth, an infinite variety of persons, who were frequently employed by the navy board, the whole of whom could be con any memorandum whatever, three weeks after, gave an explanation of it. The next letter he had to notice was one dated Sept. 22, from William Fremantle, esq. one of the secretaries of the treasury, to the barrack-master-general. This letter had been sent by the barrack-master-general, general Hewitt, inclosed in one from himself to major Davies, deputy barraek-master-general. General Hewitt, in his letter, stated that he could not better carry into effect the recommendation of Mr. Fremantle, than by hon. baronet here read the letter from the secretary of the treasury to the barrackmaster-general, recommending the government candidates, the hon. Mr. Herbert and Mr. Thistlethwaite, to his favourable influence, and requesting him to mention the same to the other gentlemen of the department. This letter had been marked 66 trouled by the executive government. This he stated only by way of explanation, as it did not form any part of the matter of the petition. If no addition were to be made to this influence, which had increased, was increasing, and must continue to increase, as long as the extent of the British navy should be augmenting, it would give the government a powerful interest in that county. But not content with that, the administration had enlisted the whole barrack department into its service, and employed the persons engaged in that depart-inclosing this letter to major Davies. The ment, as its agents to promote the election of its favourite candidates. So that it was impossible for any private individual to grapple with the power of government in that county, and the executive possessed the means of reducing it to the condition of a close borough, for which they could nominate the representatives. But in order to come nearer to the subject, he should beg leave to read the documents upon which this proceeding rested; and first, the paper, which was the foundation of the whole business. Here the hon. baronet read an extract from the first letter of sir Wm. Heathcote to the Hampshire club, stating the application of lord Temple, authorised by lord Grenville, to himself, intimating to him, that government would not oppose his re-election, in the event of a dissolution, if he did not coalesce with Mr. Chute, against whom government proposed to set up a candidate, Mr. Chute having put himself in systematic opposition to government. By this it would appear, that the interference of the executive in that county had not originated with the secretary to the treasury, nor with the comptroller of the navy, but was a preconcerted, premeditated, and predigested plan of the government, to dictate representatives to the county of Southampton, and to exclude a respectable gentleman who had represented that county for 16 years. It was, however, in candour, necessary for him to state, that the noble lord had given a subsequent explanation of that transaction, and without at all imputing any wilful misrepresentation to either of these persons, there appeared to him a contradiction in their statements. It would be for the house to decide which was most likely to be correct, sir Wm. Heathcote, who retired to his closet after the interview to make a memorandum of what passed, with a view to its publication, or the noble lord, who, without the aid of on his majesty's service," and the copy which he had of it had been taken from the letter which had been in the possession of major Davies. In consequence of it, every exertion had been made, and with success. To this major Davies had replied, that the committee were of opinion that his canvass would be more effectual at Lymington and the Isle of Wight. The next letter was from general Hewitt, to major Davies, informing him that he might go to Lymington if he could obtain the permission of the commander of the district, but at the same time that he could not be allowed any thing to defray the expences of his journey, this being a species of service which could not be inserted in the public account. The impression on his mind from this letter was, that there were two accounts kept in the barrack department, one public and the other private [a cry of no? no?]. Well! this showed more than any thing else the necessity of going into the committee, is order to ascertain whether or no there was any private account. The next letter was from major Davies to the barrack-mastergeneral, stating that his destination had been fixed for Lymington and the Isle of Wight, and that his route had been sketched by lord Carnarvon, to that point, as not very far from the residence of Mr. Rose. Now, he could not see how this noble personage should appear in such a transaction. He knew there was such a person as earl Car narvon, who had been formerly a distin guished member of that house, and who was a near connexion of one of the candi tion were involved, and that there was no borough, so hermetically sealed, to which this influence, if countenanced, might not extend. This was a case that involved the honour, the dignity, and the independence of parliament. If the house were to suffer such practices to pass uncensured; if it were to former resolutions, it would forfeit its own character, honour and authority. Here he begged leave to read the letter of the duke of Chandos, which had given rise to the resolution of 1779, and which only recommended to some friend, to attend the county meeting at Southampton, in order to add to the respectability of the assembly. Yet the duke of Chandos was a person who had considerable property in the county, and wrote only to a private individual, whilst the secretary of the treasury, who had written in this case, had no property in the county, and had set a whole public department in motion. He had done his duty, in promoting the application by petition to that house, and in tracing the case through this instance, follow up that duty by voting, that the petition be referred to the committee of privileges.-On the question being put, dates, but he could not suppose that the noble personage would make himself a party to any such unconstitutional proceeding. But he could tell him that he might hereafter spare himself the trouble of sending to canvass that neighbourbood, because the experience and weight of his right hon. friend's character and public conduct insu-forfeit the solema pledge contained in its red to him and to his connections the support of his neighbours. The next letter he had to notice, was one in which major Davies stated, that the duke of Cumberland would not suffer him to depart for Lymington, till he should himself set out for Wales, which he imputed to a fear, on the part of bis royal highness, lest his efforts should produce an effect inimical to his political connections. This, no doubt, was matter of conjecture only; but if he understood any thing of the character of that illustrious personage, with whom he had had the honour of being a considerable time acquainted, he was convinced he could not be influenced by any such feelings. The last letter which he had to notice, was one dated January the 1st, 1806, which ought evident-its whole progress, and should therefore in ly to be 1807, in which it was stated, that Major Davies was prosecuted by Mr. Deverell, on the opposite side, and thus he had an offer made to him by Colonel St. John, on the part of one of the most respectable Mr. Fremantle said, that in rising to men in the county, of relieving him from ali vindicate himself from the charges that his embarrassments, if he would give up the had been brought against him, he felt contreasury letters in his possession, which pro- siderable fears, not from any conscious posal he had rejected. He was as curiousness of guilt, but from the difficulty which as any man, to find out who this most unavoidably arose from his not having respectable" mau of the county was; for been accustomed to parliamentary speaking. though he had been 40 years resident in But how much greater must his difficulty Hampshire, if he were asked to point such be, when he reflected that his own characa person out, he should find it difficult.ter and conduct, and the character and However, as this person who could so bully even the very existence of the government and bribe with the same breath, who was so under which he acted, was committed in ready to discharge major Davies from his the present charge? He had only therefore embarrasments, might also have means of to throw himself upon the indulgence of injuring him, he was bound to state that the house, whilst he repelled the charges to he had obtained copies of the letters from a the best of his ability. From the moment person who had them in his possession, pre- of the dissolution of parliament, rumours vious to the election. From this written evi- had been in circulation upon the subject dence they could shew, that the government of the interference of government in the had issued its mandates to the barrack de-county of Southampton. He trusted that he partment, and that its directions had been should be able to show that these rumours faithfully executed, "Ex uno disce omnes." had been magnified and exaggerated beThe same course had been adopted in all theyond what the case would warrant. No wonother departments, and particularly by the comptroller of the navy. If they could prove the fact in one instance, that would be suthcient to prove their case. He felt, that in this instance the principles of the constituVOL. VIII. der, therefore, that the public mind should have been affected by such statements. He was confident, however, that he should be able to shew that he had not committed either the government or himself upon this 3 C |