Mr. Perceval, in reply, declared that he ducted, was erroneous; the home esula must think it impossible that he could have never have said a word upon the subbeen so completely misconceived by any ject of the war at that time; no, they should person who had heard him deliver his sen-have waited till the war was ended, before timents upon the present subject, as he ap- they should have presumed to have seriously peared to be by the noble lord who had just entertained a motion of that nature. What sat down. The only way in which he could he had said was, that the measure would possibly account for the noble lord having not be productive of any very serious injury delivered the speech he did, and apparently to the enemy, and that it could not possidirected as an answer to him (Mr. Perce-bly produce any very material benefit to val), was, that he supposed his lordship had this country. If in the present circumstanadopted a mode which was very frequently, ces of Europe, if in the present state of the nay, generally, adopted by the ablest ora- enemy, and in the present state of our own tors, of considering what objections could marine, we adopted such an inefficient meapossibly be urged against the statements sure of retaliation as this was, he thought which he had laid down. In making this that it would be declaring to the enemy, it calculation, he had evidently anticipated would be also publishing to all neutrals in the arguments which were to be advan- the face of Europe, that we were not prepaced on this side of the house; he had accor-red to assert our right in any circumstances dingly formed his answer to these imagi- whatever. As to France herself, he connary objections, and the anecdote of Sin-ceived that she had put herself out of bad the sailor his lordship thought to be so the pale and protection of the law of naextremely applicable to his purpose, that tions, and, as to the hardship upon the he could not possibly let slip the opportu- subjects of neutral powers, he must connity of relating it to the house. The hon. fess that he would be sorry for them, but and learned gent. then entered into a mi- then it would be evident to the world nute reply to all the observations that had that this evil had been brought on by the been advanced in support of the refusal to enemy, that on our part it was only a produce the order in council. Several of measure of self-defence. The noble lord the assertions that had been laid to his (Howick), however, at the end of the decharge, he felt it to be a duty which he bate, had stated, that as a minister be owed to himself, most positively to deny. could not feel himself authorised to declare Then, as to the declaration which had to the house the full particulars upon been made by a noble earl on the other side which the measure was founded, lest it (earl Temple), that, if this motion were to might tend to a disclosure of circumstanhave been followed up by another for the ces that would, or might eventually, be removal of his majesty's ministers, that then prejudicial to the interests of neutral powand then only, he would have given it his ers. This, however, was not mentioned unsupport; this really appeared to him to be til now; he did not know how it could so extravagant, that it would lead to this possibly affect the interests of other naconclusion, that parliament would be so tions, but he must bow to the noble lord circumscribed that, unless the member who in the situation he was, and give him full called for a paper in some degree implica-credit for his assertion. With his underting the conduct of ministers were prepa-standing he should not press his motion red immediately to move for an address, any farther under such circumstances. praying that such ministers should be dis-[Here the hon. and learned member conmissed from his majesty's councils; unless ceived that he saw a smile or some gesture this were the case, parliament could never indicative of triumph on the treasury bench.] hope to be put in possession of any paper There was no such great reason for triwhich had a tendency, in the slightest de- umph as gentlemen seemed to imagine : gree, to reflect on the conduct of his majes- the question appeared to be entirely abanty's ministers. With respect to another ar-doned by ministers, and, had the noble lord gument, that a measure should not be en- been equally explicit on a former occasion, quired into, while it was in the progress of he would not, perhaps, have been troubled its execution; if this inference were correct, then every address which was ever moved for in that house, praying that a concl sion might be put to a war, on account of its circumstances, and its manner of being con

with the present debate.-The question was then put on Mr. Perceval's motion, and negatived without a division.-The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and the house adjourned.

could not

HOUSE OF LORDS.

Thursday, February 5.

instead of being, as it is, wicked, criminal, and detestable, that you were now called upon to abolish, this would be an unanswerable argument for its abolition, that its con

planters. But, my lords, when it is considered that this trade is the most criminal that any country can be engaged in; when it is considered how much guilt has been incurred in carrying it on, in tearing the unhappy Africans by thousands and tens of tho 1sands, from their families, their friends,

[SLAVE TRADE ABOLITION BILL.] The order of the day being read for the second reading of the Slave Trade Abolition bill,tinuance must produce the ruin of our Lord Grenville rose and spoke as follows: -In stating to your lordships, in detail, some of the arguments on which this important measure rests, I hope I shall be excused by your lordships if I should feel myself obliged, in some instances, to tread over the same ground which has become so familiar to you in the course of a discus-their connections, and their social ties, and sion which has lasted for 20 years. After dooming them to a life of slavery and the investigation this subject has already misery, and after incurring all this guilt, undergone, it is scarcely possible to avoid that the continuance of the criminal traffic repeating, in some instances, the same armust end in the ruin of the planters in your guments to which we have so long been islands, who vainly expect profit from it, accustomed. I will, however, my lords, surely there can be no doubt that this deproceed to the discussion without further testable trade ought at once to be abolished. introduction, and, in the first place, to We have heard, however, statements addustate that argument which is the principal ced for the purpose of attempting to prove foundation of this measure, namely, justice. that the present state of the population of This measure rests upon justice, and calls the islands cannot be kept up without fresh imperatively upon your lordships for your importations. We are then to be told that approbation and support. Had it been, that law of nature, which has hitherto been my lords, merely a question of humanity, considered as universal, meets with an exI am ready to admit that it might then ception in the West Indies, and that there have become a consideration with your alone the increase and multiplication of lordships as to how far you would extend the human species does not take place. or circumscribe that humanity. Had it Let us therefore examine how far this been simply a question involving the inte- statement agrees with facts. Some years rests or welfare of the British empire in since I was engaged in calculations rethe West Indies, it would then certainly specting the population of the West-India have been a question with your lordships islands, along with a person who to many how far and in what respect you should great and brilliant qualifications, added a legislate. But in this instance I contend, complete knowledge of political arithmetic: that justice imperiously calls upon your I mean the late Mr. Pitt. The result of those lordships to abolish the Slave Trade. I calculations was, with respect to the island have heard some opinions urged to the of Jamaica, that from the year 1698 to effect as if justice could contain opposite 1730, the excess of deaths above the births and contradictory tenets. Justice, my amounted to 31 per cent. ; from 1730 to lords, is one, uniform and immutable. Is 1755, to 24 per cent.; from 1755 to 1769, it to be endured that the profits obtained to 13 per cent.; from 1769 to 1780, to by robbery are to be urged as an argument 3-5ths per cent. ; and the average of three for the continuance of robbery? Justice years ending, in 1798 or 1800, it is not is still the same, and you are called upon material which, gives an excess of deaths by this measure not only to do justice to of only 1-24th per cent. In this calculathe oppressed and injured natives of Africa, tion is included the whole population of but also to your own planters; to inter- the island, and of course the fresh impose between the planters of your own portations; and it is well known, that islands and their otherwise certain ruin with respect to the latter, the negroes and destruction. You are called upon to newly imported die in the harbours Lefore do justice to your own planters in spite of they are landed to the amount of 5 per their prejudices and their fears, and to cent., and that many more die soon after prevent them by this measure from meeting they are set to work. It is therefore clear that destruction which is otherwise certain that the population of the island is perand inevitable.-Was it, therefore, a trade fectly competent to support itself. It is which was in itself lovely and amiable, remarkable also that in Dominica, although VOL. VIII.

2 U

a newer island, and although fresh lands in order than one body of natives. My are known to be inimical to the increase opinion is directly the contrary. Fresh of population, there is an excess of births importations are surely more likely to put above the deaths. The argument, there- those negroes already on the island in fore, that fresh importations are necessary mind of the injustice they had pre-. to keep up the present population of the viously suffered, and there is little difficulty islands, completely fails. But then we are in communicating a sense of injustice and told that fresh importations are necessary oppression from man to man. Prohibit in order to cultivate new lands. My lords, fresh importations, and let the negroes alto encourage the continuance of the trade ready on the islands be well treated and for this purpose is to ruin the planters of properly protected, and they will become your islands are they not now distressed sensible of the protection and kindness exby the accumulation of produce on their tended to them, and gradually lose their hands, for which they cannot find a mar-feelings of the original injustice practised ket; and will it not therefore be adding upon them. The horrors of St. Domingo to their distress, and leading the planters have been, however, presented to our on to their ruin, if you suffer the continu-view; but to what are they to be attri ance of fresh importations? Even, bow-buted? to the violation of solemn promises, ever, on the supposition that the cultiva- to the breach of faith towards the negroes, tion of the waste lands in Jamaica, or of and the gross injustice practised towards nearly the whole extent of the island of them. My lords, so far from the abolition Trinidad, could produce profit to the plan of the slave trade having a tendency to ters, is it to be endured that this detestable produce those horrors in our islands, I contraffic is to be continued, and such a mass tend that it is the only measure that can of human misery produced, not to prevent prevent them. I have endeavoured to loss but to create gain? My lords, ac-prove, my lords, that the continuance of cording to a very moderate calculation, to bring into cultivation the waste lands in the islands of Jamaica, the slave trade must be continued for two or three centuries longer, and, to cultivate nearly the whole island of Trinidad, a much longer period, whilst it would take a million of those unfortunate beings from Africa to cultivate each island; to cultivate Trinidad even a greater number. Were it possible, my lords, that these two millions of human beings could be collected together at the same time, and that they could be contemplated with the reflection that they were to be torn from their families and their friends, that every social tie was to be broken asunder, that they were to be delivered over to barbarity and oppression, and were to endure the greatest misery that it is possible for human beings to suffer; would it be endured by any one of your lordships, that a traffic productive of so much misery should be continued for an instant? would it not soften the obdurate heart of the greatest barbarian that ever tyrannized in a slave ship? We were told, however, yesterday, by the learned counsel at the bar, that fresh importations were necessary, in order that the slaves might be more easily governed; we were told of the favourite maxim of divide et impera, and that by fresh importations the slaves were more readily divided into classes, and more easily kept

this trade is unnecessary, with a view to the present state of the population of the islands, as that can support itself; that to suffer it to continue for the purpose of cultivating new lands, will be certain ruin to the planters, and that the abolition of the trade is the only way of avoiding, in your own islands, the horrors which have afficted St. Domingo. Some years since, it was thought that a gradual abolition was the best mode of destroying this trade; the advocates at that period, of gradual abolition, must now be adopted for a total abolition, for the period has arrived to which they looked forward, namely, when the population of the islands would be able to support itself. Nothing but a total abolition will now satisfy justice. Let us not think that any regulations in the islands can be carried into effect with a view to abolition: on the contrary, abolition must take place with a view to regulations. In the year 1792, when the proposed abolition of the slave trade was negatived, it was agreed to address his majesty, praying him to send instructions to the governors of the colonies to procure the adoption of mea sures for the better protection, and the better treatment of the negroes. What was the consequence? My lords, I wish not to inflame, and therefore I will simply refer your lordships to the correspondence upon the table relative to that subject, and

the abolition of the slave trade is one to which I cannot think that any one who dispassionately considers the subject, can give a negative. What right do we derive from any human institution, or any divine or

particularly to that of my lord Seaforth, the governor of Barbadoes; three most horrible and dreadful murders of slaves were committed in that island, attended with circumstances of barbarity, which will not shock your lordships by detailing.dinance, to tear the natives of Africa, to Lord Seaforth of course instituted an en- deprive them by force of the means of laquiry, upon which it was found that the bouring for their own advantage, and to murder of a slave was only punishable by a compel them to labour for our profit? If fine of eleven pounds. That noble lord, then to do so is gross injustice and oppresin conformity to the instructions he had sion, as I contend it evidently and undoubt received, and with a proper regard for the edly is, can there be a question that the chaBritish character, immediately proposed to racter of the country ought to be cleared the legislature of the island, to enact a law, from the stain impressed by the guilt of such which affixed the punishment of death to a traffic, of a traffic by the effect of which we the murder of a slave. How was this propo- keep Africa in a state of barbarity and de sition received? it was received, my lords, solation? In support of the trade, it has with insult, and the council and house of been said, that if we did not take away the assembly returned answers in language individuals who are the objects of it, they fitting, as they conceived, to the insult would be put to death either as prisoners which had been offered to them. What taken in war, or for witchcraft, or other then is to be expected from regulations to crimes; but is it not evident, from the testi. be adopted by the colonial assemblies? It mony we have had upon this subject, that is but right, however, that I should state, this is not the fact? On the contrary, we that I have heard it reported that the legis- have not only every reason to believe that lature of Barbadoes has since adopted the the men made prisoners in war would be, course which justice pointed out, and have according to the custom of barbarous naaffixed the proper punishment to the mur-tions, made domestic slaves to their captors, der of a slave. Still, however, if the evi- but we have every reasou to conclude, that dence of a slave is not to be received it is the temptations held out to the chiefs against a white, is there not given to the on the coast of Africa, for the gratification master an opportunity of tyrannizing over of their passions, that induces them to his slaves, and inflicting on them dreadful enter into those frequent wars, and that cruelties without the possibility of bringing produces those frequent accusations of him to justice? Let us, my lords, abolish crimes, by means of which negroes are prothis criminal traffic, and we may look for-cured for the purpose of selling them to ward to the period when the slaves, become our traders. Of the desolating influence in a great degree natives of the islands, of the slave trade, in Africa, and its effects will feel the benefits of the protection ex-in keeping the country in a state of barba. tended to them, and the good treatment rity, we have sufficient evidence in the they experience, and will evince a corre- Travels of Mr. Parke on that continent, alsponding attachment to the country from though the work was edited by a person which they receive those benefits. Through- known to be one of the most active oppoout all history we find that the progress nents of the abolition of the slave trade, from: slavery to liberty has been first by Yet we find in that work, that it is towards means of personal slaves becoming predial, the interior of the country, that poor attached to the land, and from thence pulation and civilization increase, aud they have ascended to freedom. My lords, that on the coast barbarity continues I look forward to the period when the ne- to prevail, which can only be attributed groes in the West-India islands, becoming to the influence of the trade, which labourers, rather than slaves, will feel an your lordships are now called upon to interest in the welfare and prosperity of the abolish. My lords, an argument was used country to whom they are indebted for against this measure last session, which I protection, and of the islands where they cannot conceive entitled to the least experience real comforts, and when they weight. It was said that we ought not to may be called upon to share largely in the abolish this trade, unless other powers defence of those islands with a sure confi- would agree likewise to abolish it; that is dence in their loyalty and attachment. to say, that we should not do an act of My lords, the measure now proposed for justice, unless other powers would consent

the attainment of such an object, will, I trust, plead my excuse. The noble lord concluded by moving that the bill be now read a second time.

or rather that we should continue to com-ships should agree to the abolition of this mit injustice, and persist in guilt, in crimi- inhuman trade in blood, as I trust you will nality, because if we did not, other powers feel it due to your own character and to would. As well might it be said, that a the character of the country to do, it will man could be justified in robbing another, meet in the other house of parliament with because if he did not, he knew there was a the strenuous support of a person to whom banditti ready to commit the robbery; or the country is deeply indebted for having that an assassin would be justified in com- originally proposed the measure, and for mitting murder, because he knew that if he having followed up that proposition by did not, others were ready to perpetrate it. every exertion from which a chance could This argument, however, bad as it is, fails be derived of success. I cannot conceive in its own grounds. The united states of any consciousness more truly gratifying America, who had fixed the period of the than must be enjoyed by that person, on abolition to take place in 1808, have anti-fiuding a measure to which he has devoted cipated that period (I wish we had had the the labour of his life, carried into effect-a glory of being the first in the race), and measure so truly benevolent, so admirably there is already, according to the last ac- conducive to the virtuous prosperity of his counts, a bill in its unresisted progress country, aud the welfare of mankind-a through the legislature, for the immediate measure which will diffuse happiness abolition of this trade, in which it is de- amongst millions, now in existence, and clared that death shall be the punishment for which his memory will be blessed by of those who deal in the blood of their millions yet unborn. My lords, I have to fellow creatures. With respect to the Eu- apologize for having troubled your lordropean powers, how are France and Spain ships so long; but upon a measure of such to carry on the trade? Sweden never en-importance-a measure, for the completion gaged in it. There remains only Portugal, of which I have been labouring for the last and how is that power to carry on the trade? 20 years the ardent zeal which I felt for Is it to our own islands, where we prohibit it; is it to the French islands, which we block up; is it to the Spanish islands, where we prevent it; and where is Portugal to find capital to carry it on? Another ob- The Duke of Clarence assured their jection advanced by a noble and learned lordships that he had ocular proof of the lord (Eldon) is, that this measure does not manner in which the planters behaved to come up to the resolution passed last ses- the negroes; he had been in almost every sion, and that instead of the abolition of island in the West Indies, he had conversed the African slave trade, we are only abo- with the people themselves, and the result lishing the British traffic in that trade; but of all his observations and all his enquiries is it to be contended, my lords, that because was a most clear and positive conviction on we cannot embrace all the good that may his mind, that there was not the least founbe done, that therefore we are not to effect dation in fact for the charge which had a partial good? If that were the case, we been brought against the planters of illcould never effect any good whatever. My treatment to their slaves. The noble lord, lords, in calling your attention to this great among other things, had said, that we measure, let me entreat you to consider that should look to the fate of St. Domingo; the whole country looks to the parliament every man who wished well to the comto wipe away the stigma attached to its mercial interests of this country, must agree character in continuing this detestable with his lordship, and also hope that their traffic; that it looks not merely to parlia- lordships would weigh deliberately in their ment, but to your lordships' house. Twice minds the fate of St. Domingo, before they has this measure failed in this house, and if came to a decision upon this important this iniquitous traffic is not now abolished, question. It was not at present compethe guilt will rest with your lordships. We tent to England to prefer any claim to have to lament the loss, in the other house sovereignty over that island; and when of parliament, of some of the ablest and ever the time of peace should arrive, the most distinguished advocates for the aboli- French most probably would turn their tion; we have also to lament in this house, attention towards the recovery of an isthe loss of some of its able and strenuous land which had been lost to them by insupporters. Still, however, if your lord-surrection and revolt. No other nation