ployed; and that, if any important facts to the immediate question now before the were to be ascertained, the witness would be house, he very much concurred with his heard at their lordships' bar. Was it right, noble and learned friend (lord Eldon), that because there was a change of men, no witnesses need at present be called. and of public measures in consequence, Whether in a future stage it would be right that the interests of these petitioners should to have recourse to such assistance, it was be disregarded; and what was before de-not now necessary to enquire; he should termined to be fit matter of enquiry, should on this subject reserve his opinion for the now be rejected, as immaterial and inap-proper occasion when it should be expeplicable? If these interests had any ex-dient to declare it. He was not disposed, istence, redress ought to be given, compen- however, to be equally silent on the consations ought to be assigned; and the extent of these could only be ascertained by testimony. He would repeat, that he did not contend that evidence should now be beard; but he thought it extremely probable that, on further progress, it would be discovered that witnesses ought to be examined.

cluding sentiment delivered by the noble earl who had just sat down, which, if adopted, would defeat the purposes of all parliamentary deliberation. He said, that because the house in the last session thought it expedient to give its opinion on the subject of the slave trade, it would be now inconsistent with its dignity to examine Earl Grosvenor was very anxious to do witnesses on the subject matter of this justice to all parties, but thought that to bill. This was to assert that their lordhear evidence in this stage of the enquiry ships were to be so bound by their would be useless, and would be a depar- former determination, that they were to be ture from the propriety of their lordships' precluded from hearing testimony as to proceedings. There were many occasions matters, however strongly urged by counsel, on which it was extremely desirable to hear and however important to the decision on evidence, especially where the subject was the merits of the present bill. Were the novel: but this was not a case of that resolutions passed during the last session sort; much testimony had already been to be considered in a more serious light supplied, which was still in the recollec-than a bill which had gone through the tion of their lordships. Indeed, so com- progressive steps, until it was finally transpletely had the question been examined, mitted to the commons? Such a bill might that resolutions had been entered into, co-be rejected, and could, in such case, be inciding with those passed in another cited as no authority by which the opinion place, that a termination should be put to this nefarious trade. If the learned counsel wished to prove that the great lord Somers was auxiliary in passing certain bills favourable to the trade, or that char-it ters, at various times, had been granted to favour it, no depositions in the form now proposed were at all necessary. If he were desirous of shewing, that after the bill should have passed into a law, the merchants would be ruined, and they must throw themselves upon the liberality of parlia-noble earl did not say that the previous ment, neither did this require any immedi- opinion declared, however solemnly, should ate confirmation; the proper time to ad- preclude all examination of any future duce such proof would be when the mea- measure connected with the same subject; sure, productive of such effects, had be- but he said that when such a determination come the law of the land. The same might was made, that the trade was contrary to be said as to any evidence applicable to mere the broad principles of justice and huma speculative propositions. After the reso-nity, it would not become the dignity of the lutions their lordships had come to last house to enter into minute enquiries into year, it would not be consistent with their the precise profits, of which the adventu dignity to enter into such a mode of exa-rers would be deprived. This was the sen mining the fitness of their own deliberate determinations.

Lord Hawkesbury said, that with regard

of their lordships should be governed. It was obvious that such resolutions were not to prevent the exercise of their delibera. tive functions, and thus much be thought necessary to say, that these functions might remain entire and unimpaired.

Lord Holland perfectly agreed with his noble friend (earl Grosvenor), and thought that the commentary of the noble lord who had just sat down, originated in a misapprehension of the terms employed. The

timent expressed by the noble earl, and supported by the general tenour of his speech; and, on his mind, they were

neither subversive of the constitutional privileges of their lordships, nor destructive of their deliberative functions in any particular.

3dly, the catastrophe which had befallen the island of Dominico. How were the lives which had been lost there to be supplied?

Lord Holland observed, that, according to the speech of the learned counsel,

facts as they were, and then the learned counsel proposed to call men of experience to prophesy to the house the effect which this measure would produce in future.

The Duke of Clarence was of opinion that the counsel ought not to be allowed to call evidence in the present case. His theorists were those that had stated reason was, that all the evidence necessary to illustrate the interests of the petitioners was before the house. Their lordships had materials enough before them to form their judgment. His royal highness, however, reserved to himself the right of considering whether it would not be necessary to hear evidence on other points.

The Bishop of London declared, that after the ample evidence which had been produced, particularly in the examinations Mr. Clarke was then heard as counsel before the privy council, and the discussions for the corporation of Liverpool. He which had already taken place on this asked leave to examine Mr. Foster, to subject, he much doubted whether all the shew the interest which the corporation of evidence which counsel could produce, Liverpool had in the wet docks of that port. would be sufficient to invalidate the proofs -Lord Grenville moved, that the next of the cruelty of this trade. The persons counsel be heard. Ordered.-Mr. Plumer who then gave evidence, were men of high was called in, and addressed their lordships distinction, and unquestionable veracity. as counsel for the planters, &c. of the He deprecated any delay, which might island of Jamaica. He concluded by re- prove fatal. Every moment was precious; questing the permission of the house to ex-numbers of poor Africans were now perishamine the earl of Balcarras.

The Lord Chancellor asked what facts the counsel expected lord Balcarras to prove?

Mr. Plumer observed, that from the long period his lordship had been governor of the island of Jamaica, he would be able to point out the consequence of the abolition of the West-India colonies.

Lord Grenville remarked, that it was ir regular to examine witnesses at their lordships' bar, who had no facts to state, but were merely called to explain their views and opinions. Facts might be sworn to, but prophecies could not. That kind of evidence was not fit for their lordships to hear, nor for others to give. He moved, that the next counsel be called in.

ing in the holds of slave ships, and suffering incredible hardships in the seasoning, which would be increased if this measure were unnecessarily delayed.-The motion was then put and carried. After Mr. Scarlet had been heard,

Lord Eldon moved, "that an humble address be presented to his majesty, that there might be laid on the table of the house copies of the correspondence between the then secretary of state and the government of Trinidad, in 1799, respecting grants of lands to be made to any persons settled in that island."

Lord Grenville said, he should not object to this motion, but believed that no such permission would be found to have been granted to the government of Trinidad; as The Duke of Clarence did not oppose the it was in the contemplation of government, motion, but he observed, that since the at that period, that if the island should reevidence was last heard on this subject by main after peace to this country, no encoutheir lordships, alterations had occurred in ragement should be given to any new and the state of the West Indies, which might large importation of negroes into that setrender it necessary to hear further evidence. tlement, and that no steps should be taken There were three principal points of which with respect to that island, which should his royal highness thought it necessary to obstruct any ulterior measures respecting remind their lordships: 1st, The evacua- the abolition of the slave trade.-He then tion of the island of St. Domingo by the moved, that the order for the second British troops, which left it to be conside- reading of the bill be discharged, and that red what effect the state of that island the bill be read a second time to-morrow, might have on Jamaica. 2dly, the posses-clearly wishing it to be understood, that sion of the island of Trinidad, which was, as the debate on the main question would then to cultivation, almost in a virgin state. come on.-Agreed to.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

ceedings of the said committee be laid be Wednesday, February 4. fore the house.-Mr. Parnell moved, that [MINUTES.] Mr. J. Fane, chairman of the order for taking the Mayo election pethe committee appointed to try the merits tition into consideration on the 24th of of the petition complaining of an undue February, be discharged, with a view to election for the borough of Thetford, re-postpone it to some early day in April. ported that the committee had decided The precedents of the conduct adopted by that Thomas Creevey, esq. was duly elected, the house in the cases of the Aberdeen, and ought to have been returned; and Dublin, and Londonderry election peti that James Mingay, esq. was not duly elections, he urged as the grounds upon which ted, and ought not to have been returned, the party founded his motion. The absence and that the petition was not frivolous nor of a material witness, the circumstance of vexatious.-Sir G. Heathcote, chairman of an eminent barrister, who was engaged to the Maldon election committee, reported, support the petition, being absent on other that it had determined that B. Gaskill, esq. professional avocations, and a matter of was not duly elected, and that Charles general consideration in such cases, the Western, esq. was duly elected, and ought distance of the place, be conceived to be to have been returned, and that the oppo- additional grounds for inducing the house sition to the petition was not frivolous nor to comply with the object of his motion. vexatious. Mr. Atkyns Wright, from the Mr. Corry opposed the motion, as he select committee appointed to try and de-could not possibly see that there was any termine the merits of the Petition com-analogy between the cases, which the hon. plaining of an undue election and return member had cited as precedents, and that for the borough of Penryn, informed the which was the subject of the present mo, house, that the said committee have deter- tion. In the county of Mayo there were mined, that sir Christopher Hawkins, bart. is nearly 8000 freeholders, and about three not duly elected; that Henry Swann, esq. fourths of those who voted had polled in is duly elected; that John Trevanion, esq., favour of the sitting member. It was also the petitioner, ought to have been returned; to be recollected, that the witnesses might that the said John Trevanion, esq. is duly be examined by cominission in the county elected; that the said petitions did not of Down, and adjoining county.-The galeither of them appear to the said commit-lery was then cleared, but the house did tee to be frivolous or vexatious; and also not divide, and the motion was negatived. that the opposition of sir C. Hawkins to ORDER IN COUNCIL RESPECTING NEU the said petitions did not appear to be fri-TRAL VESSELS.] Mr. Perceval rose pur. volous or vexatious. The deputy clerk of suant to the notice he had given above afortthe crown was ordered to attend the house night since, for the purpose of moving for to-morrow to amend the said returns. the production of the Order of Council of Mr. Atkyns Wright also acquainted the the 7th of January last, relative to vessels house, that the said select committee had sailing from port to port, such ports recome to several Resolutions, which they spectively being in the possession of France had directed him to report to the house; or of her allies; a paper which, when and he read the report in his place, and af-produced, the house, he had no doubt, terwards delivered it in at the table, where the same was read, and is as followeth, viz. "Resolved, that it appears to this committee, that sir Christopher Hawkins, bart. has, by himself and agents,been guilty of bribery and corrupt practices, to influence the last election for the borough of Penryn. That John Stona the elder, James Edgcombe, the rev. Robert Dillon, and other persons, being electors for the said borough of Penryn, were engaged in, and parties to, the said bribery and corrupt practices." Ordered, that the said report be taken into further consideration on the 23d instant; that the said report be printed for the members of the house; and that the minutes of the pro

would think deserving of their most serious attention. But, however important the subject, and however serious the consideration which the paper deserved, yet he ap prehended that he might appear to want an apology for himself, for havinggiven to the motion which he was about to submit to the house, so much pomp and solemnity, by a notice so extended. Because, when it was understood that this motion was merely for the production of a paper which was already before the public, and knowu to all; which must have been in the pos session of every one accustomed to enter a coffee-house, or read a newspaper for more than a month, which, in order to give it

every possible publicity, authenticity, and sion involving so many extraordinary con authority, had been inserted in the Loudon siderations, and charged with doctrines Gazette; and which, from its reference to and principles so entirely new. The abi the law of nations, and the regulation of lities of the noble lord opposite, the eloneutral trade, was in its nature calculated quence with which he always enforced to excite attention; he was apprehensive his sentiments, and the influence which that those who were not in the house on the justly and naturally belonged to the staother night when this matter was under tion he held, rendered it unwise to opconsideration, might suppose that he was pose him without having first made that acting an idle and injudicious part, in preparation which was essential to the giving a distant notice of a motion for the discussion which was to result from agiproduction of a document which every one tating so important a question under such would consider, at the first view, as a thing extraordinary circumstances. But, it to be granted of course. In this situation he would be obvious to every one who was felt it due to himself to state the real cir- acquainted with the principles of parliacumstances of the case.-When he first in- mentary proceedings, and more strikingly tended to make this motion, he naturally so to those who were acquainted with the concluded that there could be no objection principles maintained by the noble lord to it, and that it would of course be com- and his friends, while they sat on the side plied with, and therefore he gave notice of the house from which he (Mr. P.) that he would move for the paper on the now addressed the chair, what a novel following day. On his coming to the house and extraordinary, what an unparliamenfor that purpose, the noble lord opposite tary and unconstitutional doctrine it was, (Howick) very openly and candidly stated that no motion for papers should be ofthat it was his intention to oppose it. He fered to the house unless it should, at the conceived that the ground of objection same time, be shewn, that no proceeding must be that the paper was already before was to be founded on those papers but the public, and that therefore the produc- such as government would countenance. tion of it was useless and unnecessary. He hoped the house would not counteBut it was admitted that when any subse-nance a precedent as different from its quent motion was intended to be founded former practice as the noble lord's docupon any great public document, the re-trine was from the tenets he and his friends gular and ordinary mode of proceeding was had formerly maintained. He had been to bring that document formally before the disposed to think the noble lord would house. He therefore found that this was have anticipated this motion by some prenot the ground of objection. He was desi-vious statement, either to defend his prinrous, however, that the house should be inciple or to withdraw his opposition. The possession of the real ground, whatever it paper itself was a measure of government, might be, and therefore requested the published with great care and anxiety, noble lord to state openly, whether that and intended to be acted upon. Ministers was his objection, or whether he had a dif- admitted, that the ground of objection ferent one. The noble lord accordingly was not, that the paper would be made stated that this was not the ground on which known by this motion, but that it would be he meant to object to his motion. He ad-rendered too public. The paper was almitted that the regular and proper mode ready known over this country, it was open of proceeding, with a view to a subse- to the inspection of all men; it was known quent motion, was to move, in the first over all Europe; and yet after all, the instance, for the production of the do- only persons, who were not to be allowed cument on which it was to be founded. to see the paper, were those who were But the noble lord stated, that he would called upon particularly to discuss it. The oppose it, because he could not antici- representatives of the people, who were pate any measure that could be founded on it, to which he should not feel it his duty to object; and therefore, he would not even go so far as to countenance that subsequent measure, by acceding to the production of the paper. Under these circumstances, he was unwilling to bring the house prematurely to a discus

to approve, or to disapprove what was done in the interests of their constituents, were refused the means by which to di rect their judgement. He was persuaded the house would feel that this refusal was no less unprecedented than it was unprincipled; and if the house should ansdon their right to call for papers of t...s

mature, they would abandon the means of plete circle. The magnitude of the mea➡ prosecuting any enquiry into measures of sure was a sufficient ground for the proadministration, and establish a principle duction of the paper: and, even if the nowhich would be in the highest degree dis-ble lord could satisfy the house that it was advantageous, and would be attended not probable, that upon discussion, any with the most deplorable and ruinous con- fault could be found with the measures sequences. The ordinary grounds of ob- which had been adopted, still that would jection were not stated in this case; not be a proper ground for refusing to acthere was no mention of any inconveni- cede to this motion. But here ministers ence that would attend the production of were so confident, that they would not this paper; no mention of the length of even allow the house to deliberate upon the time which would be required to prepare case, to point out any errors, or to shew it; no mention of the trouble and labour where improvements and useful alterations to which the public offices would be ex-might be introduced. They would not posed. It was not stated that it was from even allow them to consider whether any any idle curiosity that it was called for, such alterations were required. He could and, what was the most serious objection, not conceive how, for the credit of the it was not stated that any mischief could measure itself, they could resist discusarise from that publicity which would be sion. If the measure was a wise one, it the consequence of discussion; for the pa- would well bear discussion, and it would per was already as publicly known as it be advantageous to government, that it could be. Under these circumstances, should be seen and shewn, for then the could the house refuse to accede to his government itself would rise in credit and motion? The subject was acknowledged estimation, and the whole measure would to be of a magnitude to require the atten- be much more complete and satisfactory. tion of parliament, and the production of But, if there was any other opinion respectthe papers was resisted merely upon the ing the measure; if there were doubts as ground that no motion was to be founded to its wisdom or its policy, then indeed, on it to which government was disposed he could conceive, that there might be obto give its approbation. Then suppose, for jections to the production of this paper, the sake of argument, that it was admitted and that the subsequent motion would not that the noble lord would be able to sa- be such as would be agreeable to the noble tisfy the house that there were no grounds lord. If there was a little consciousness for any subsequent motion; suppose it that the measure could not be defended on should be admitted that after discussion principle, and that there was a defect in the the house ought to be perfectly satisfied execution; if, where there ought to be viwith what had been already done by mi-gour, there was languor; if, where there nisters, and should be of opinion that they acted wisely and properly in doing no more: though this should be conceded, did it therefore follow that the necessity for discussion was superseded, or that the house ought to rest on the authority of any mi-constituted the real one. If the reason of nister who should take it upon himself to dictate to the house, and say, that enough had been done, and that there was no need of discussion? He never heard reasoning more completely irregular than that upon which the noble lord seemed disposed to rest his case. It was admitted that the document ought to be on the table, in order to lay the foundation for discussion. The document therefore was necessary to lay the ground of dicussion; but we could not get the paper without first entering upon the discussion; therefore the discussion was necessary in order to procure the paper, and yet there could be no discussion till the paper was produced. This was a com

ought to be strength, there was weakness; then the noble lord might be disposed to oppose the motion. This led him to say that the house might reasonably doubt whether the alleged ground of opposition

his opposition was that which he alleged, namely, an unwillingness, so far to countenance any future motion that might be founded on this paper, as to agree to its production, he might say that he would not pledge himself to agree to any subsequent motion, and he might even disavow the implication which his assent might possibly occasion. This would put him exactly in the situation in which he said he desired to be placed. But really it was scarcely possible for him to conceive any rational ground of objection to this motion. There were two objections only which could possibly enter into his imagination. First, it might be desirable for the noble lord to