which would enable them to discharge their painful duty in this instance. The hon. gent. suggested to enlarge the words of the motion to all cases of expulsion, distinguishing those in which the expelled members had been again returned.

bis publication of the North Briton; he also thought, therefore, that it would be desirewell remembered the question agitated res-able to make the words of the motion larpecting the same individual in 1769,on which ger, in order to come at the main spring occasion he was in the minority. It must be upon which the house acted in such cases, in the recollection of many members of the house, that in 1782 the expulsion previously voted had been reversed, and all the resolutions respecting it expunged from the journals by a majority, of which he was one. Though this was not a case in point, yet he apprehended that it settled Lord Howick adopted the suggestion of the law of parliament on the subject of the hon. gent., and moved, “that, a comexpulsion. Having made these loose ob-mittee be appointed to examine the jourservations with a view of bringing the nals of this house, and records of parlia question only before the house, he should ment for precedents of cases of members conclude therefore with trusting that the who bave been expelled by this house, and motion of the noble lord would be adop-for what causes they have been so expelted, being the best in any point of view led, and also of cases in which members, which could, in his opinion, be suggested. having been expelled by this house, have Mr. Hurst was astonished that a person been again returned; and to report the of the ability of the learned gent. who same to the house, together with the prospoke last, should say that there was no ceedings thereon:" which was agreed to. distinction between principle and precedent. [PETITION OF THE ELECTORS OF LANThey were far as the poles asunder. Pre-CASTER RESPECTING MR. CAWTHORNE.] cedent might illustrate, but did not con- Lord George Cavendish proposed to prestitute a principle. He would support the sent a petition to the house from a very motion for searching precedents, however, considerable number of the freemen of as they would shew what had been done in Lancaster. It had been put into his hands similar cases, if there were any. If there as he came into the house, and he thought were no precedents, then we must resort it his duty to present it. But in doto the principle, and make a precedent ing this he would not pledge himself for the future.-The motion was then to any opinion upon the case. agreed to, and the sentence of the court had been a member of the court marmartial, and the proceedings of parliament tial whose sentence had been alluded thereon in the session of 1795-6 read in to, he should abstain from taking any brief; after which it was moved by Lord Howick, that a committee be ap-of the petition he was ignorant, but if the pointed to examine into the journals of that house, and the records of parliament, for precedents of cases, in which members had been expelled by that house, who had been returned to it, and to report thereon to the house.

As he

share in those discussions. Of the contents

house would consent to receive it, they would be enabled to judge of its contents when it should be read at the table.-The petition was then ordered to be brought up and read. It stated, "that the petitioners have been informed, that some measure, not being a petition from any party interested, is depending before the house, ha

Mr. Spencer Stanhope, in seconding the motion, thought it his duty to abstain from giving any opinion upon the case by antici-ving for its object to prevent them from pation, one way or the other. being represented in parliament by John Mr. Bankes perfectly agreed with the Fenton Cawthorne, esq., one of the mem-. noble lord as to the course of proceeding|bers chosen at the last general election to which he recommended, but thought, that represent the borough of Lancaster in as the motion was worded, it would nar- parliament: That the petitioners submit, row the view of the case. Gentlemen that, according to the uniform practice in conversant with the records of that house, such cases, the legality of any election of would be aware, that of cases similar to a member of the house cannot be questhe present there were none, and of analo- tioned, unless the same is made the subgous cases extremely few. There were ject of a petition presented to the house many cases to be found, which, as the within 14 days from the first meeting of motion was worded, the committee would parliament after such election; and that think themselves bound to report. He any attempt to invalidate such election,

527] PARL. DEBATES, JAN. 23, 1807.-Petition of the Electors of Lancaster,&c, [328.

by any other means than such as are spe-sons of character. He could only say, like cified in the several statutes in such case most members who presented petitions, made and provided, must be contrary to that he believed it to have been subscribed Jaw, and ought to be discouraged by the by those whose names appeared to it. house: but, if it is not intended to bring Mr. Cawthorne observed, that the hon. into question the legality of the election of gent. had taken up the question very the said J. F. Cawthorne, and the same is warmly, but appeared to be totally unacadmitted to be a legal election, then the quainted with the circumstances of the petitioners humbly submit, that the house case. He could shew him an alphabetical has no jurisdiction to exclude from the list of the subscribers to the petition, which privilege of sitting and voting as a mem-had been taken from the list of the freeber of parliament any person who has be- men of Lancaster, and transmitted to him. come a member of the house by a lawful Amongst them were the names of the chairelection, except for some matter arising man and magistrates of the quarter sessubsequent to such election to disqualify sions, and many land-owners in the hunsuch member from sitting and voting: dreds about the town. It was not by any That the petitioners having elected the said personal considerations that he was influJ. F. Cawthorne, with a full knowledge of enced on this occasion, but by a regard to all the circumstances which they are in- the rights of the gentlemen who had sent formed are now to be made the grounds of him to that house. his expulsion, submit, with the greatest confidence, that unless such circumstances amounted to a legal disability to sit in the house of commons (in which case the petitioners submit that the question ought to be tried upon a petition, and before a select committee,) the exercise of a power by the house of commons, to defeat such election Lord Stanley was of opinion, that this would be subversive of the rights of elec-petition was of a nature so dictatorial, that tors in general, and highly injurious to the it ought not to be suffered to remain upon petitioners, who insist they have a right to the table of the house; but he would not return to the house any person as their agree, that it would justify a disfranchiserepresentative not previously disqualified ment of the borough, because that would by any known rule of law; and therefore confound the innocent with the guilty. praying, that no such measures may be The petition was in the hands of the noble adopted by the house, and that they may lord before any motion was made on the be heard against any such measure, by subject, or the petitioners could know themselves, or their counsel, at the bar of whether their rights would be affected the house." On the motion that the peti-thereby. The petition was dictatorial, and tion do lie on the table, presumed to lay down the law, and therefore ought not to be laid on the table.

Captain Herbert asked the noble lord who presented it, whether it was really the petition of the freemen of Lancaster? If it was, it appeared to him not to be in the light of a petition, but as a dictatorial and insolent attempt to controul parliament. The last paragraph appeared most reprehensible, where they acknowledged that they were acquainted with all the infamy that was the object of the motion. This admission would almost justify the house in disfranchising the borough. (A loud cry of no no!) There certainly could be no doubt that a person declared incapable of serving his majesty in any capacity, was not fit for any trust.

Lord G. Cavendish replied, that it had been put into his hands by persons of respectability, and was signed also by per

Mr. Spencer Stanhope observed, that this was a petition against a motion made, though no proceeding had taken place on the subject to which it alluded, till a few minutes ago. This was strange conduct, for which he did not think there was any precedent.

Mr. S. Bourne entered his protest against the doctrines that had been laid down by the noble lord, and by the hon. gent, who had contended, that the language of the petition was so improper, as to justify the disfranchisement of the borough. The petitioners had a right to petition, if they apprehended, no matter upon what ground, that their rights were in danger of being invaded. The language of the petition was the same with the language recorded upon the Journals of the house, that an attempt to invalidate a return, where the person was not legally disqualified, was subversive of the rights of electors. Had not the petitioners a right to use the same language as the house? He had risen only to protest against such novel and uncon

stitutional doctrines, in order that it might] 30th of Sept. took in the estimates but for not be supposed, if they were suffered to three-fourths of the year, and it was not pass unnoticed, that they were assented to for him to decide competently until furnishin that house. ed with the remaining quarterly account, Mr. S. Stanhope appealed to the speaker, ending the 31st Dec. In time of war the whether it was consistent with the forms levies for each succeeding month are reand practice of the house to receive a pe-gulated by the report of the past month's tition against any proceeding not im-recruiting, which however in such a crisis mediately under consideration of the house.

The Speaker, as he had been appealed to, felt himself bound to declare, that he had always understood, and had collected from the proceeding of that house, that they opened their doors wide for receiving the petitions of all his majesty's subjects, whether with respect to grievances, real or apprehended, and that the only indispensable requisite in a petition, to intitle it to the consideration of that house was, that it should be couched in language not offensive.

And

is never to be checked beyond a certain limit. It was a great satisfaction to him to state to the committee, that it appeared by this last quarter's estimates, that the number of British seamen exceeded 126,000 men, and that this considerable increase had taken place within the last five months. It might appear a question, why, if the numbers had exceeded by more than 6000 the ordinary supply, there should now be a further demand for an additional 10,000. When gentlemen came to consider the variety of increased exLord Howick agreed in the sentiments of penditure in the department relative to the hon. gent. opposite (Mr. S. Bourne), the marines, they might be led to think and entirely concurred in the doctrine, this difficulty sufficiently obviated. laid down by the chair, that a petition here he would take occasion freely to state from the subject was entitled to the atten- his sentiments upon a subject that had not tion of that house, provided it was not been as yet, in his opinion, satisfactorily couched in offensive language. The lan-propounded. He alluded to the present guage of this petition seemed not to be of mode of submitting to the house the naval that description, for the petitioners humbly supplies, and contended that, according submitted that the apprehended proceed to that mode, it was impossible that the ing would be subversive of the rights of members could be put in possession of all electors. They should not construe too the information that was indispensably netechnically the letter of the petition.-cessary to their forming a right judgment The petition was ordered to lie on the upon the estimates required; the mode of table. proceeding hitherto adopted seemed to be [NAVY ESTIMATES.] On the motion of grounded upon a scale of arithmetical reaMr. T. Grenville, the house went into a soning, which could not be brought to apcommittee of supply upon the Navy Esti-ply; at present the allowance for the mates for the current year.

120,000 voted was at the rate of 71. per Mr. T. Grenville rose, in pursuance of man; before the session of 1797, it was his motion, to move for a vote of 10,000 but 47. per man; and until the allowance was seamen, in addition to the 120,000 already increased, the naval debt was progressively granted. In moving a resolution to that increasing to a most inconvenient disproeffect, he felt it necessary to make some portion. As he thought that gentlemen observation in reference to a charge of sup-should be possessed of the most minute posed neglect that had come from the details, he took this opportunity of acother side of the house, upon the ground quainting the committee that he had in of the necessity of this additional supply contemplation so to arrange the statement not having been foreseen, when the late of the naval estimate in future, (should he grant was made, for that nothing possibly have the honour of again submitting the could have occurred since the late de- estimates to any future committee) as to mand was complied with to justify a sub-render them clear and intelligible to every sequent demand for an additional vote of gentleman who might be auxious to exseamen. It would be found, however, upon examination, that his conduct had been, in this instance, strictly regular, and was to be justified upon the usual grounds of proceeding; the accounts ending the VOL. VIII.

amine them minutely; he was at the same time aware that there were estimates of a nature that made it impossible to give such in detail-as, for instance, allthose arising from the unforeseen damages, los 2 M

to concede, though at the same time he must say, much as he individually respected the talents and experience of the gentlemen composing this commission, still he thought the commission inconvenient in its operation, and not the most infallible

ses, and accidents, to which the sea ser- that an abrupt stop to their labours hivice was so peculiarly liable. Gentlemen therto should not now defeat the result of inust see that in cases of such uncertainty, them; to such an application the hon. there could be no room for calculation, member said, that he thought it his duty even of a general kind, much less of an exact detail of the minute expences. He felt confident in saying, that where it was admissible, the plan in contemplation would be found to be eminently qualified for removing all the many difficulties that had hitherto precluded gentlemen the ne-in some of its suggestions. While the cessary information, and he spoke with same person was at the head of the admimore confidence in its praise, because the ralty, and this commission, no such inconlabour had not been his own. To give venience was to be dreaded. He could gentlemen a clearer idea of the advanta- not approve of the report, that considered ges expected to result from the proposed general establishments of pay, as connecplan of statement, he should trouble them ted with the pay of all officers whatever, with an enumeration of the distinct heads or that recommended increase of pay to under which the different articles of de- the officers in the dock-yards. The right tail should be arranged. The first should hon. gent. then concluded with moving be a reference to wages to officers; 2d, his first resolution"That it is the opinion seamen ; 3d, marines; 4th, and 5th, pilo- of this committee that 10,000 additional tage and wages; 6th, wear and tear, seamen be raised for the service of the which would be found to be a most im-year 1807, including 2,400 royal marines.” portant and comprehensive head of expence; Mr. Johnstone thought the right hon. 7th, pensions; 8th, salaries to the admi- gent. certainly satisfactory in the clear and ralties, &c.; 9th, workmen in yards, &c.; comprehensive view he took of his propo10th, rebuilding ships in merchants' yards sed improvement in the way of presenting by contract; 11th, hired arined ships; the navy estimates for the future to that 12th, the most difficult branch of all others house. He, however, did not think the to detail, purchase of stores to replenish gentleman equally satisfactory in explainhis majesty's magazines, an article in itself ing why this additional grant of seamen requiring no less a sum than 3,600,000/.; had not been moved for when the 120,000 the 13th head he should entitle bills of men were voted. He could not reconcile exchange; 14th, incidental expences; and it to his mind that it was satisfactory to 15th and last, the victualling board. Un-hear that the first lord of the admiralty did der the above 15 heads, it was proposed not know upon the 30th of September the that every minutia of charge should be number of seamen in the service. He fully detailed, each classed under its respective article, so that any gentleman anxious for minute examination, would have only to turn to the index, that would refer him at the instant to the point upon which he wished for information. As a proof of the necessity of such an arrangement, he would beg leave to mention one instance, that of the navy estimates, including a charge of 600,000l. for the victualling bills for the army in garrisons abroad. This surely was going beyond the naval department, and consequently introducing much confusion in the public accounts. The last estimate he had to submit to the committee, was six months' salary due to Mr. Perceval thought it no ground for the commissioners of naval revision. This not continuing the commission of review, commission would have expired in Decem- to say that its suggestions were not approber last, but as the gentlemen composing ved of by his majesty's ministers, because it had applied to him for further time, spe- nothing was more possible than that that cifying that it would be of importance, commission might suggest measures as

was, however, glad to hear this promise of detail, and hoped it would be extended to articles of expenditure, as well as of sup ply; he hoped that the estimates might be printed, and did not see why (if the measures suggested by the commission of revi sion were censurable) the right hon. gent. acceded to them the indulgence of six months' grace.

Mr. Rose maintained that there was nothing either new or difficult in the way of making up the estimates as proposed by the right hon. member. He had it within his knowledge that it might be effectedwithin a few days labour.

wise as his majesty's ministers could do.

reflection upon those who had preceded him in office. He could assure gentlemen that he had no intention whetever to act with any such hostility. The right hon. gentleman who had just sat down had stated, that such accounts as he desired for the information of parliament, were made

Lord H. Petty said, that the commission of revision had never been recommended by the commissioners of naval enquiry. He thought, however, his right hon. friend right in not putting an abrupt close to the proceedings of the commission, particularly as it had been stated that the said pro-out in the offices for several years back, ceedings would be brought to their desired issue within six months. With respect to what had fallen from a right hon. gent. opposite (Mr. Rose), as to the facility of stating the accounts in the form proposed, he begged leave to ask why the gentleman himself had not before adopted a method so easy and so desireable?

and had gone out of the house to produce a paper to shew that; but all that he could say to that was, that he could never find such accounts in any of the offices. The old and ordinary mode of making out the accounts was all that he could discover, and that he wished to amend. And surely that wish which it appeared was in direct consonance with Admiral Markham said, that when he ap- that which the right hon. gent. alleged to plied upon a former occasion for the ac-have been the practice, in a way that did counts of repairs done in ship-merchants' not officially appear, could not be deemed yards, the answer he received from gentle- any reproach either upon himself or his men then in power was, that it was a thing predecessors, by whom the right hon. impossible to be effected. gent. ascertained that wish was entertained Mr. Perceval denied that he had said and acted upon. that the commissioners of review had been Mr. Rose disclaimed the suspicions imrecommended by the naval enquiry computed to him. The right hon. gent. was not among those whom he supposed ca

missioners.

Mr. Rose, to prove the justice of his al-pable of censuring the conduct of his legations, was willing to lay before the right hon. friend. All he meant to say house a minute statement of all the char-with respect to the accounts referred to, ges for the last 8 or 10 years he was in office.

was this, that his late right hon. friend had been in the habit, for several years, of obtaining similar accounts from the office of the comptroller of the navy.

Mr. Vansittart declared that he had never seen such an account in the treasury, and maintained that such an account as that alluded to by his right hon. friend, was continually necessary, in order to enable ministers to make out correct estimates, and also to render to parliament a correct account of the public expenditure.

Mr. T. Grenville asked, if it was fair or consistent, in the same instant, to censure him for laying the accounts before the committee in the usual way, and when he proposed a fuller and more satisfactory way of doing the same, to charge him with neglect, because he had not sooner made the discovery. As to granting a longer existence to the commissioners, he did not feel that it involved him in dilemma: the commissioners required time to wind up their labour, and he should have thought Sir J., Newport took occasion to comit a waste of all the former time and ex-plain of the conduct of public officers in pence, if they were not continued the six months longer.

Mr. Rose read at the table a detailed account of the items of charge for foreign and home stores, &c. from the 12th of March, 1798; and contended from it, that he had already done that which was now to be called a new discovery.

Mr. T. Grenville was astonished at the suspicion which seemed to be entertained by the gentlemen on the other side, that because he wished to have the accounts of the navy laid before parliament in a more detailed and intelligible shape than they had hitherto been, he therefore meant any

not leaving in their offices any official documents which might be communicated to them. He was sorry to say that this conduct was particularly remarkable in the office which he had the honour to occupy, as upon his accession to it he did not find a single paper relative to previous official proceedings, at least on this side of the channel. Papers which contained any official information, and which were communicated for public purposes, ought, as appeared to him, to be in no case removed from the proper offices, as they belonged not to the persons who might occupy any particular office, but to the public.