He

doubtful whether the late prohibitory de-hibitions would be taken off. But all that cree had met with any alteration? whether he could take upon him to say at present the congress had assembled, or whether was, that there was a treaty of amity, comthe president had any power to alter the merce, &c. as he had stated in his letter. provisions of the decree? The consequence He could only communicate the fact, leawas, that merchants were left entirely in ving it to others to draw such inferences as the dark, whether or not they might with the fact might appear to them to warrant. safety export those articles that had been A learned gent. (Mr. Perceval) the other prohibited. This was a state of suspence night had adverted to this treaty, and that ought if possible to be removed. seemed desirous to know whether we had did not ask about the terms of the treaty; bound ourselves down to a particular syshe knew any such question would be pre-tem of action with regard to the American mature. But if his lordship meant to say, and Neutral Navigation and Commerce, or that these goods might be exported with-whether his majesty had reserved to himout danger, explanation was required, for self a right to proceed as far as was nehe had not been explicit. If he meant to cessary to counteract the designs of the say that they could not be exported with enemy, by using means equally severe safety, explanation was still requisite, for against his commerce as he used against he had been explicit neither on the one ours. He had no objection to answer that point nor on the other. He hoped, there-question. His majesty had reserved to fore, that the noble lord would have no himself a right to proceed with as much riobjection to remove all doubt on this sub-gour against the French commerce as the ject, by giving a full explanation of his chief of the French government had emmeaning. This was material, as the note ployed against us. This was a right which in question had created much anxiety he hoped his majesty would always reserve among the commercial and manufacturing to himself. Nothing had been given up interests of the country. therefore on that point by the treaty with America.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Thursday, January 15.

Lord Howick would be glad to be able to answer any question which was stated to be of importance to the commercial and manufacturing interests of the country. How far the hon. general might think ex- [MINUTES.] On taking the chair, the planation necessary, he did know, but the speaker acquainted the house, that he had house would immediately see that his ques-received a letter from the right hon. W. tion, if he rightly understood it, was one Wickham, which stated, that having been which he could not possibly answer. The returned for the borough of Midhurst, and hon. general had said, that a considerable the borough of Callington, he had made impression had been created among the his election to serve for the borough of commercial and manufacturing interests of Callington. It also stated, that illness was the nation by the note which he had writ-the cause of his not having made this inten. How any impression should have timation within the time specified in the been conveyed by that beyond the simple orders of the house. A new writ was orfact, he was at a loss to conceive. He dered for the borough of Blechingley, in had merely stated the simple fact, that a the room of J. Dupre Porcher, esq. who, Treaty of a certain description had been since his election, had accepted the Chilsigned by the respective commissioners, tern Hundreds.-The Malt Duty bill was What was to follow upon that, he could not read a third time, and passed.-Mr. Vantake upon him to say. It would be im-sittart presented the Barrack Estimates proper at present to go any farther than and gave notice, that on Wednesday next the bare fact. He had stated, that there he would move them in the committee of was such a treaty, leaving it to others to supply.-A message from the lords andraw such a conclusion as they should see nounced their lordships' assent to the Exfit. In this, however, as in all treaties, the chequer Bills bill.-Mr. Perceval gave nomnost obvious inference would be, that tice, that he would to-morrow move for an since it was signed by persons duly autho-humble address to be presented to his marised, it would in due time be ratified. jesty, praying that he would be graciously If there was such a treaty, and the in-pleased to cause a copy of the order of ference was that it would be ratified, it council of the 7th of January relative to might naturally be concluded that the pro- Neutrals, to be laid on the table of the

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house. Mr. Biddulph gave notice, that thorised by his majesty's commission, had on Tuesday next, he would propose to the signified the royal assent to the Exchequer house to come to a resolution, that the ex- Bills bill.-The speaker also informed the tent of the supplies, during the war, ha-house, that he had received from Mr. ving caused great burthens to be imposed Bouchier, the deputy clerk of the crown in upon the people, a committee should be Ireland, a return of barristers, qualified to appointed to enquire into the practicabi- act as commissioners under the Election lity of a reduction of those burthens, by the act.-The speaker likewise 'informed the abolition of sinecure offices, places, pen-house, that the following persons having sions, &c. and also by the reduction of ex-presented petitions on the 1st of January, orbitant fees.-On the motion of sir Jcomplaining of undue returns for the plaNewport, the report of the commissioners ces annexed, and not having entered into of enquiry in Ireland, was entered as read. the recognizances prescribed by the 28th He then observed, that it appeared by that of his present majesty, he had caused the report that many offices in the customs of orders for taking such petitions into consiIreland had become useless, and that others deration to be discharged: W. Baker, had been converted to sinecures, in conse- Newcastle-under-Line; sir J. E. Brown, quence of the subsequent establishment of county of Mayo; sir C. Saxton, and H. Bouother offices, by which their business was verie Malmsbury; several burgesses of transacted. The commissioners recom- Malmsbury; T. Stacy and others, freemen mended, that 38 offices should be entirely of Hythe.-He also observed, that alabolished, and that 26 should be either though no recognizances had been entered abolished by being consolidated with other into on the joint petition of sir C. Saxton, offices, or so regulated as to become bene-and C. H. Bouverie, esq. yet that, with ficial to the public service. In the 38th regard to a separate petition from one of of his present majesty, a similar report those parties, the forms had been complied had been made, in consequence of which a with, and consequently, that the order for reform, such as that which he meant to taking that petition into consideration propose, had taken place. Without fur- would remain on the journals.—On the ther preface, therefore, he should move, motion of lord Castlereagh, it was ordered, that leave be given to bring in a bill to abo-that the abstract of the army estimates for lish certain offices, and to regulate certain 1807, presented by the secretary at war other offices in the customs of Ireland. on the 14th inst., be printed.—On the moLeave granted. The 46th of the king, tion of Mr. Grenville, it was ordered, that commonly called the Corn Intercourse act, there be laid before the house an estimate having been entered as read, sir J. New-of the debt of his majesty's navy, as it stood port, intimating that considerable doubts had arisen in some quarters as to the operation of the act, and an interpretation having been given to it which was by no means intended, gave notice, that he would to-morrow move that the act should be taken into consideration by a committee of the whole house. His object was, that the sense of the act should be declared, and that it should be shewn that it applied to the gross produce and manufacture of Great Britain and Ireland alone, and not to those of foreign countries.

on the 30th of September, 1806. The right hon. gent. immediately presented the above-mentioned estimate, and gave no tice, that he would make a motion on the subject in the committee of supply, on Friday next. He added, that it was also his intention, on that day, to move for an additional number of seamen to those already voted: 120,000 had been already voted: he meant to propose a vote of an additional 10,000.-On the motion of lord H. Petty, there was ordered to be laid before the house a return of the effective qumber of volunteers, on the 1st of January, 1805.Mr. C. Wynne obtained leave to bring in Friday, January 17. a bill for continuing the act of the 44th of [MINUTES.] The deputy usher of the the king, empowering his majesty to accept black rod appeared, and required the im- the extended services of volunteers from mediate attendance of the house, in the the militia of Ireland. This act had hihouse of peers, to hear a commission read. therto only remained in force from year to The speaker and several members, accord-year. His object was, to continue it du ingly attended. On their return, the speak-ring the war. He then brought up the bill, er informed the house, that the lords, au- which was read a first time. Mr. Biddulph

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

obtained leave to withdraw his motion re-hand another petition, stating, that the atlative to sinecures, &c. with a declaration torney had not received the speaker's or◄ that he would bring it forward on some future der till the 14th of this month, owing to day. SirJ.Newport brought in a bill for abo-its not being sent by the messenger, though lishing certain offices in the Customs of the attorney had left directions for that Ireland, and for abolishing and regulating purpose. He moved that the time be encertain other offices; which was read a first larged to Wednesday next. The speaker time. On moving that it be read a second stated, that it was no good ground for this time, sir J. Newport took occasion to ob- motion, to state that an old and established serve, that the recommendations of the order of the house was not known. The commissioners of enquiry (as far as it de- messengers were not in the practice of senpended on the executive government of ding the speaker's orders to any agent not Ireland) had either been already carried residing in London, and it would be atinto effect or would speedily be so. The tended with great inconvenience if this principal of these recommendations was should be altered. Mr. Leycester, Mr. comprised in the bill before the house; Wynne, and Mr. Perceval severally objecand two or three others of a minor de- ted to the motion, and were of opinion, scription, would be submitted to the house that the prayer of the petition could not in the course of the session.-On the mo-be granted. The first of these gentlemen tion of sir J. Newport, the house went stated, that the speaker's order had nothing into a committee to consider the act of the to do with the recognizance. It only re46th of his present majesty, commonly ferred to the time when the merits of the called the Grain Intercourse act. He ob- case were to be tried. The motion was served, that he had yesterday stated the then put and negatived.-Sir J. Newport object he had in view. From the gene- presented a petition from the right hon. rality of the wording of the act, consider-Isaac Corry, praying that the time for enterable doubts had been entertained whether ing into the recognizance might be enlarged. it did not extend to a point which was not The ground was, the distance from which in the contemplation of those by whom it the sureties had to come, and the possible had been proposed. He meant to the in- delay from adverse winds. He moved that troduction of foreign corn and flour the time be enlarged for three weeks. The through the circuitous medium of one discussion upon this motion was postponed country to another. He now, therefore, till Tuesday.-Mr. S. Bourne presented a moved for leave to bring in a bill, decla-petition from John Hawkins, praying for ring that certain provisions of the act of an enlargement of the time for entering last session, which related to the inter-into the recognizance with respect to the course of every species of grain between petition against the return of Mr. GratGreat Britain and Ireland, should extend tan. The ground was, that the petitioner to grain, the produce of those conntries only. In answer to a question from Mr. Bagwell, as to the operation of the act on malt, sir J. Newport declared, that it did not apply at all to malt. By some error, the word malt had crept into the pre- [CHARGES AGAINST MR. CAWTHORNE.] amble of the bill, but had never been in- Lord Howick, adverting to the consideratroduced into any of the enactments.- tion of the Army Estimates, which stood The house having been resumed, the re- for Wednesday next, and observing that a port was received, and leave given to bring subject of such importance would probain a bill accordingly.-Lord Folkestone bly occasion some discussion, suggested to presented a petition, praying for an enlarge-an hon. general, the expediency of deferment of the time for entering into a re- ring the notice which he had given for a cognizance in the case of the Milbourne motion on an important subject to some port election. The ground of this motion other day. was that the agent for the petitioner, a country attorney, did not know of the order of the house requiring a notice to be given to the sitting member, of the time when the recognizance was to be entered into by the petitioner. He held in his VOL. VIII.

could not find Mr. Grattan in order to serve the notice within the limited time. He moved that the time be enlarged to the 5th of February. The discussion was postponed till Tuesday.

General Porter, however anxious that the subject alluded to should be brought before the house, yet, under the circumstances mentioned by the noble lord, had no objection to postpone his motion from Wednesday to Friday. 2 G

Mr. Cawthorne appealed to the justice of hoped that the noble lord would have no the house against any further protraction objection to state whether or not he underon this subject. He certainly felt the im-stood him correctly, when he supposed portance of the discussion to which the him to say, that, as he could not anticinoble lord alluded, but he also felt the im-pate any proposition grounded on the proportance of the discussion in which he wasduction of the order to which he could so immediately interested, and which had give his concurrence, he must object to been so frequently postponed. However, such production, unless he (Mr. P.) would he left it entirely to the house to deter- satisfy him as to the precise nature of the mine whatever they should think fit. ulterior proceeding which he meant to Lord Howick allowed that the discus-propose. If such actually was the ground sion referred to was of an important nature. on which the noble lord intended to opHe deemed it important from other mo-pose the production of the order, he certives than as it related to an individual, tainly would not make his motion on the and he trusted that when it was brought present day, because it would then be inforward, it would be treated on general cumbent upon him, in that case, to satisfy principles. He was also desirous that as the noble lord and the house of the expelittle delay as possible should take place diency of the ulterior proceeding to which on this subject; but the delay of two days he alluded, and because he thought the would not be very material, and he hoped, nature of that proceeding too important therefore, that the hon. gent, would con- to be discussed at such a short notice. He. sent to the postponement. therefore again requested the noble lord to. explain himself on this subject.

Lord Howick, finding that it was suppo

this Order was a mere matter of course, had deemed it right to intimate to the learned gent. that he should feel it his. duty to resist it. He certainly should not object to its production, on the ground of

Mr. Cawthorne asquiescing, the notice was entered for Friday next. [ORDER OF COUNCIL RELATIVE TO NEU-sed that the motion for the production of TRALS.] Mr. Perceval said, that when he gave notice of his intention to move for an humble address to be presented to his majesty, praying that he would be graciously pleased to cause to be laid before the house the Order of Council of the 7th of Jauu-its having already obtained publicity in the ary, respecting the mode in which his ma- London gazette and in his majesty's projesty had instructed his officers to deal with clamation; for although he was aware, that the trade carrying on by Neutral Vessels the proceeding of the house might be between the ports of the enemy, he had no founded on such a publication, yet he was idea that any objection would be made to also aware with the learned gent. that it the production of this paper, except, per- would be a more regular course of prohaps, that that production had been ren-ceeding to produce the document on the dered unnecessary by the publication of table. But although the document in its the order in the London gazette, and in present state might be sufficiently authenhis majesty's proclamation, and that there-tic, yet it did not follow that it must be fore any proposition to the house would be produced to the house of commons. There as consonant to form without the produc- might be two causes for requiring such a tion of that order on the table. To this production; the first on the ground of some objection, had it been urged, he should declared parliamentary measure; the next, have answered that long parliamentary for the purpose of instituting some undeusage had led him to believe, that when- fined proceeding. The last was the cause ever a motion was intended to be institu- alleged by the learned gent. It became ted on a paper, the more regular mode of the duty of the house to enquire into the proceeding was to call for the production nature of that proceeding. As far as he of that paper on the table of the house. was able to collect the views of the learned, However, the noble lord opposite (for gent. they were such as he, for one, could which he returned him his unfeigned by no means consent to. His object was thanks) had intimated to him, that he altogether unprecedented, and in his opimeant to object to the production of this nion liable to the most serious objections. order on other grounds. He therefore He therefore felt it his duty, until the wished accurately to understand those learned gentleman should explain unto the grounds, that he might determine what it house the nature of his ulterior proceedwould be suitable for him to do. Heings, to object to the production of the

order; and as therefore the learned gent.'s part of the estimates was occupied by the motion would probably lead to much dis-extraordinaries of the army, this appeared cussion, he advised him to defer it with a to him to be peculiarly necessary. What special notice.

Mr. Perceval, although he should feel perfectly justified in making his motion for the production of the order in question, yet, after the declaration of the noble lord, and for the reasons he had before stated, he would decline doing so at present. The noble lord had described the ulterior proceeding which he meant to institute on this paper as unprecedented. This he would say, that the ground on which the noble lord objected to the production of the order was at least as unprecedented.

had happened on the subject of the ordnance estimates, sufficiently proved the expediency of giving all possible publicity to these subjects before the house disbursed such large sums; it was incumbent on them carefully and closely to examine the detail. He should therefore move, that the estimates of the army, presented by the secretary at war, on the 14th inst. be printed.-Mr. Biddulph seconded the motion.

The Secretary at War hoped that the hon. gent. would content himself with the Lord Howick, without wishing for any precedent of last year, which was to print premature disclosure of the learned gent.'s the abstract of the estimates. It would intentions, thought it might be convenient be impossible that the whole of the esti to the house to be informed of the nature mates could be printed before the time of those intentions. fixed for their discussion. The abstract Mr. Perceval wished it to be understood, afforded a reference to the estimates, by that the postponement of his motion was which any gentleman might be enabled to for the express purpose of giving himself satisfy himself on ambiguous points. Withan opportunity of bringing forward his pro-out any grounds, therefore, for such a proposition in the best possible shape. It ceeding, he trusted the house would not go would embrace in it the consideration of to so much useless trouble and expence. the policy, expediency, and adequacy of But he had another and a more serious obthis order of council, as applied to occa- jection to the motion, which was, the dansions of such retaliative injury to the ene-ger of laying any thing on the table of the my's commerce, for the injury sustained house by which the enemy might obtain by the commerce of this country; and also information of the destination of our troops. of the more vigorous execution of that wise principle of right and discretion, which the order on the face of it intended to enforce. He would shew, that the principle on which the order proceeded was not that on which it professed to proceed. He meant to propose a parliamentary resolution on its inadequacy and insufficiency which might find its way to his majesty's council, and which might produce an act of more vigour, and measures better calculated to benefit the country. With regard to the precise form of his notion, which he would now fix for Thursday se'nnight, he had not yet made up his mind.

If the estimates were printed, the certain consequence would be, that they would get into the newspapers, and the enemy would thus become acquainted with the distribution of our whole military force.

Mr. Calcraft could not possibly listen in silence to the attack again made by the hon. gent. on the Board of Ordnance, otherwise he should not have risen on the present occasion: for, two years ago, he had himself moved that the Army Estimates should be printed. Not being aware of any difference in the circumstances of that period and the present, he should feel it his duty to support the hon. gent.'s motion. [ARMY ESTIMATES.] Mr. Johnstone With regard to what the hon. gent. had said, he should not consider himself as again said, in implication of the board of faithfully discharging his duty to the coun- ordnance, the state of the case was pretry, if he voted the very large sums con- cisely this, a large equipment of stores and tained in the Estimates of Army Services ordnance was sent for from the island of for 1807, without knowing the various Ceylon. It was particularly demanded by items of which those sums were compo- the commanding officer, that English gunsed. He might be told, that there were powder should be sent out, because, as le very few instances in which the Army Es-stated, the powder in the island was so bad, timates had been printed, for the purpose that not only an immediate supply was of allowing this particular investigation; necessary, but also a future annual supply. but at the present time, when so large a He had on a former occasion told the hon.