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bition of the statement of such measures. sented a petition from the Tariners of LonThe noble mover did not say that any don against the Oak Bark bill.- Upont farther parliamentary proceeding would be the motion being made for its lying on. taken upon those papers ; but merely that the table, it might; and really he could not think Lord Temple stated, that he had, upon the that a suflicient ground for the noble lord's subject of this petition, taken occasion to intended motion.
communicate, as his duty presented to him, Lord Folkestone was aware that this was with the tanners of London, among whom hei not the proper time for any argument upon found some considerable alarm prevailed, rethe subject; but he would, with the leave lative to the bill before the house. But: of the house, make a further reply to the the result of this communication served noble secretary of state. The object of fully to convince bis mind, that that alarm the motion of which he had given notice, was not well founded. Such indeed was. could not be fairly supposed to involve any his opinion, even before the conference harshness towards lord Wellesley, as the took place. But still he felt it not only bis noble secretary of state stated, any farther duty, but his inclination, to consult any than as it professed to assist and facilitate class of men interested in a question of the enguiry respecting that noble lord's this nature; to consider their opinions, to conduct. But the noble secretary of state examine their objections, and even to pay seemed to imagine, that there was some attention to their prejudices. He would probability the enquiry might be relin- therefore propose to allow full time for en. quished, and that therefore the documents quiring farther upon this subject, in order: his motion would relate to, might not be that the grounds upon which the petitioners necessary. Of this, however, he could rested their objections to the bill before the assure the nuble secretary, that the enquiry house might be amply investigated. For would certainly be persisted in; for if no that purpose he would move, that the other person should offer, be pledged him. second reading of the bill should be postself, if a member of parliainent, to follow poned till this day fortnight. In the init up. The papers he bad described were, terim the case might be diligently examin-. the noble lord observed, laid before the ed ; and as the Oak Bark trade was sushouse last session, and therefore there pended, at least until May, no injury could could be no just objection to their being result from the proposed delay, to those re printed, particularly as the enquiry concerned for the carrying of the bill. The would be proceeded in. Indeed, if the petition was ordered to lie on the table, hon. gent. who originally brought it for- and lord Temple's motion for the second ward should not be enabled from his pre- reading of the bill on this day fortnight sence in that house to prosecute it, be was agreed to. would, rather than let it drop, take it up (IRISH Election Bill.) Sir John Newhimself. Those papers would not, there- port rose, pursuant to notice, to move for fore, be suffered to lie dormant on the leave to bring in a bill for amending the table. It was for no such purpose that act of the 420 of his present majesty, for he intended to move for them. They s regulating the trial of contested elections were, indeed, already in tire bands of the in Ireland. The right hon. baronet obgreater part of the members, and in general served, that there were several provisions circulation; but in order to satisfy the forms in this act which he proposed to alter, and of the house, it was necessary to have them which were of such a nature as the house again laid on the table, and re-printed, must feel admitted of no delay that could before any parliamentary proceeding could be consistently avoided in passing the bill be founded upon them. Whether his mo- which he had felt it his duty to bring forward. tion for this purpose should be agreed to There were some points in the act he proor not, he could not guess. He did not posed to amend, which he thought it right indeed anticipate the opposition manifest- to mention to the house, as proofs of the ed by the noble secretary. But whether necessity that existed for such amendment. that opposition should be persisted in or In the act referred to, there was a provinot, whatever the fate of his motion sion for swearing the commissioners apmight be, that motion would certainly be pointed in Ireland to examine evidence, made, and the enquiry to which it rela- &c. upon the subject of election petitions; ted as certainly prosecuted.
but strange as it might seem, there was no (Oak Bark BILL.] Lord Folkestone pre- provision for swearing the clerks who acted
under such commission. This omission, been objected to, and of course taken to which he meant to supply, was the more attend the commission at a considerable extraordinary, as the whole of the proceed- expence to the party interested, although ings depended on the accuracy of these not more than 50 or 60 of those votes clerks, upon whose written statement of had ever been enquired into at all. The the evidence taken before them, the com- remedy he should propose for this evil mittees of that house were to ground their would be, that when a party objected to decisions ; therefore such clerks might any voters, the specific grounds of the obu! have it in their power, by the suppression, jection shall be stated, and unless sucb obor substitution of a single word, to defeatjection be sustained by evidence, it shall be the whole proceedings upon an election declared frivolous and vexatious by the petition. Another point in the act he pro- commission, and the party advancing such posed to amend was this : according to that frivolous and vexatious objection obliged act, no man could be a member of a com- to pay the expence incurred in consequence mission to enquire into the merits of any by his opponent. This provision, he bea! election at which he had voted. But this lieved, would serve to diminish, if not to prohibition be proposed to extend to those remove, an evil too often practised, and also who were entitled to vote at such which the spirit of litigation only could election : and that he thought necessary prompt men to inflict upon their advere to answer the object of the former provi- saries.-Leave was given to bring in the sion; for, as the law stood, a man entitled bill. to vote had only to decline voting, in order [MILITARY ESTABLISHMENTS OF THE to qualify himself to become a conimis- COUNTRY.]' Lord Castlereagh, in pursuance sioner, as was often the case in consequence of the notice which he had given on a forof compromise with some of the candi- mer day, rosé 'to submit his motions to dates. Thus the spirit of the law was the house. It was a satisfaction to him to evaded. But this evasion was not confi- find that no objection was likely to be made ied to the commissioners; it extended also to the production of any of the returns for to the clerks, and therefore to them also which he proposed to move. It would unhe should extend the proposed prohibition. questionably be more satisfactory to the There was another new provision which house, that no argument should be prohe thought it necessary to introduce into duced upon the subject to which his mothe bill he should have the bonour of sub- tions referred, until the documents he was mitting to the house, the object of which to call for should be before the house. It would be to remove doubts existing as to the was, therefore, not his intention to submit power of a committee of that house to call any reasoning to the house upon the quesfor the production of any books or other tior in the present stage. He should condocuments which might have been laid beftine-bimself to a short statement of the fore the commission in Ireland. Another points upon which he desired information, amendment he had to propose, would relate and to which his several motions would go. to the expence of clerks. At present the first point upon which he thought it they wertallowed at the rate of sixpence for necessary to call for information, was the every 72 words, which gave them an interest actual state of the army, regulars, and miin protracting the enquiry ; and it had hap- litia. His first motion, therefore, would pened that such protraction had extended be'for a return of the present actual effecso far, that although the receipt of the live strength of the regular army, the milicommissioners,' who were barristers, did lia, and the artillery, up to the latest penot exceed 2001., that of the clerks riod when returns had been made, and at amounted to no less than 8001. But it the end of every month from the first of was his intention to reduce the allowance March 1806, inclusive. By this return to the clerks from 6d. to 3d. for every 72 the house would be enabled to judge how words, which would of course reduce their far the army had undergone any increase interest in the protraction of the pro- or diminution of its effective strength ceedings. The last point of the proposed within that period. The next point upon change the right hon. baronet stated to be which be proposed to move för uformathe natural result of a case which had oc- tion, was with respect to the sources, from curred in Ireland, where between 3 and which the supply for keeping up the strength 400 voters, forming almost the whole of of the army, was derived. By this return those who had polled at the election, had the house would be able to form some opinion of the sources of supply which that fundamental change in the Mutiny formerly existed, to see what part of them act, which the right hou. gent. bad introstill continued, and what part of the exist- duced into it last session. If it should ing spurces of supply, had produced the not appear that a great increase had been greatest increase, as well as the policy of effected by the alteration in the amount of continuing or altering any part of them. the army, whilst it laid tbe foundation of The two motions which he meant to bring so great a diiniaution of its numbers, be forward on these heads would put the should feel it his duty to endeavour to house in possession of full information bring back the Mutiny act to its former respecting the general state of the army, provisions, and to those principles upon and the means at present existing for keep- which the British army bad been carried to ing it to its proper, establishment. His such an extent of reputation and strength. two next, and indeed his only, further mu- The noble lord concluded with submitting tions related to branches of our military his motions, which were to the following force, that were collateral to the regular effect, to the house :-“1. That there be army, and calculated to support and keep laid before the house, monthly returns of it up; he meant the volunteers, and that the amount of the effective strength of his other branch, which had engaged so much majesty's regular troops and militia, from of the attention of the house during last the 1st of March, 1806, to the 1st of Jasession, when the general Training bill was nuary, 1807, inclusive; distinguishing caunder discussion. He proposed to move valry, foot guards, infantry of the line, for a Return of the effective strength of the garrison and yeteran battalions, foreign Volunteers, on the 1st of January, 1806, and local corps, German legion, West-lnand also at ihe latest period of any returns dia corps, British and Irish militia, and of that force, distinguishing the period at distinguishing those serving abroad, from which the last returns had been inade. He those serving at home.-2. A similar refelt that much information was necessary turn of the effective strength of the artilon the subject of the Volunteers; but a lery for the same period inclusive, distinmore seasonable opportunity would occur guishing the corps serving abroad and at for calling forit, and discussing the question, home.-3. A return of the number of men when the documents he was then to move raised monthly for the regular army, from for should be before the house. The fourth the 1st of Jan. 1805, to the 1st of Jan. 1807, head of information to which his motions exclusive of foreign or colonial levies, referred, was the sole one that remained and distinguishing those raised by the adfor bim to advert to, pamely, the general ditional force act, by the regular recruiting, Tiaining bill; because, whatever the right and those that were inlisted from the milie hon. gentleman might think of his expla- tia.-4. Copies of all orders or regulations nation upon that head on a fornier night, that have been issued since the last session it bad proved by no means satisfactory to of parliament, respecting the recruiting of him, nur did he think it could be satisfac- the regular army.-5. An abstract of the tory to the house, or to the public, It did effective strength of the volunteers on the not appear from the right hon. gent,'s state-1st of January, 1806, distinguishing inment, that any steps had been taken in fantry and cavalry; also a like return at execution of that measure, except so far the latest period when any return has been as respected the procuring lists. His last made, speciiving within what period such motion, therefore, should be for an abstract return had been made.-6. An abstract of of the proceedings that had taken place in such instructious as have been issued by execution of that bill. When the informa- his majesty's command to the lieutenants tion for which he proposed to move should of counties, and of such proceedings as be before the house, he should be prepared have been taken thereon in execution of to state bis opinion; and if the papers the act of last session of parliament, for should not prove, that the state of the the general training of the population of army was not, according to the prospects the country."-On the question being put that bad been held out to that house last upon the first motion, session, more satisfactory, than, upon the Mr. Secretary Windham, though he felg general information which a persou cir- that no iuformation was too much, thạc cumstani ed as he was could obtain, was could be supplied to the house on this sube disposed to believe it; be should neverject, was yel of opinion that there wight bring himself to consent to a renewal of be many points which it would not be de
sirable to have made known. Every gen-Forder to enable them to discover what prom teman was aware, that any documents portion of that force was applicable to the which might be laid before that house, defence of the country. "If parliament were nut exclusively confined to the mem- took the responsibility upon itself, by the bers, but made their way 10 the public, part it had acted, in changing altogether and of course to the enemy. In this view the whole military system, by its measures it would appear to the house that there respecting the volunteers and the training, Inight be points, which, however desirable it was essentially necessary for them to know it may be that the house should be informed what force they had for the defence of the upon, it would still be vot prudeut to let country. He certainly thought that they the knowledge of them reach the enemy. might get information of the gross amount of When the noble lord had read over this the black corps, as he did not propose to in. motion to him, it bad not appeared to be terfere with their local distribution, withliable to any serious objection. The noble out giving any dangerous information to lord had stated to him, that it did not dif- the enemy, especially as the black troops fer from a motion that had been agreed to were not the only troops in the West in a former year, except in this, that this Indies. motion called for the monthly returns, Mr. Secretary Windham admitted that whilst that had been half-yearly returus. tbe observations of the noble lord bad, in But it appeared to him at present that his a great measure, obviated his objection, motion was objectionable, inasmuch as it He had still, however, a difficulty in stating would expose the strength of some partie the amount of black troops, which were excular local corps to the enemy. It would clusively employed in the West Indies. be an ungracious duty for him to object to But as they were not the only corps emthe production of the information desired, ployed, the objection did not appear to him yet, however he might have himself contri. inaterial, and he should, therefore, not buted to the production of similar returns press it. in any fornier period, he should not hesi- Lord Castlereagh consented to have the tate between his private wish and his sense black West-India regiments thrown into the of public duty. The noble lord might gross amount of the foreign local corps. perhaps sbape his motion so as not to be the motion was then agreed to, as were the liable to this objection, in which case he second, third, fourth, and filth, without any should agree to it with cheerfulness. He particular or material observation.-Qa could not consent to have the returns of the question being put upon the last, the black colonial troops, which were em- Mr. Secretary Windham begged leave to ployed ouly in the West Indies, produced say a few words on that occasion, which in the furm called for by the noble lord ; appeared to be called for, by some obserbut he would leave it to bim to explain his vations that had fallen from the noble lord own motion in such a manner, as might ob- in allusion to the measure to which this viate the objection that applied to it. motion referred. The noble lord, from his
Lord Castlereagh concurred in the wis, experience of the additional force act, and dom of the observation of the right hon. every other gentleman, who was acquaint gent. that it would not be proper to pro-ed with the execution of such, must be duce any documents which might give any aware that they embraced a great deal of dangerous information to the enemy. But civil detail, which it was impossible to from the manner in which this subject bad precipitate. The militia lists had been been brought before parliament for the last used in preference to those originally three or four years, be thought the infor- pointed out by the bill. That part of the mation he called for, necessary to the process had not been gone through, and house. He had remembered, indeed, one in- until it had, it would have been impossible stance, in which not only the number but to accelerate the operation of the measure the distribution of the British forces had by the authority of office. All that had been produced on motion. The enemy, been foreseen by the framers of the meahowever, could have the same information sure, as well as that it was incapable of from publications countenanced in this being executed last summer. If even there country. He had moved only for the gross had been a necessity to put it in execution, amount of the British army, abroad and at it could not have been ready for such bome, and not its distribution; and this execution before the Spring. In the information was necessary to the bouse, in present state of the world and of the sea son, it would not be very eligible to put it soon as the noble lord's motion should be into operation, even if every thing was disposed of, he should move for the reprintready. The noble lord seemed anxious foring of the whole papers, including the co ies of the proceedings under this mea- printed evidence. He woald not pretend sure, and returns of the enrolments. But to anticipate the judgment of the house on he could inform the noble 1 rd, that that the noble lord's motion, but justice to bis part of the process had already been gone noble relation, who was the ultimate obo through, and that nothing remained to beject of it, demanded, that if the proposal done but the apportionment, which had for printing a part of these papers should even already been begun. The act had be acceded to, ibe rest ought to be circulaleft the government a discretionary power, ted in the sanie manner. as to its execution according to circumstances, and consequently justified fully
ITOUSE OF COMMONS. their conduct respecting this measure. This Wednesday, January 14. was all he had thought necessary to say, in [MINUTES.) Sir J. Newport brought up a consequence of the observations of the bill, to amend the Act of the 42d of his noble lord, nor should he have said so present majesty, for regulating the trials much, if the noble lord had not made some of Controverted Elections, or returns of allusion to a motion for military enquiry in members to serve in parliament for Ireconsequence of the measures with which land; which was 'read a first time.the house had recently been engaged, and The Secretary at War presented the which had been recommended by trim. The Army Estimates for the present year, and noble 'lord might certainly have felt the a copy of the warrant for fixing certain alnecessity of such enquiry, from the conse- lowances and pensions, in pursuance of the quence of those measures in which he had Act 46 Geo. III. These papers were or so large a share.—The motion was then dered to lie on the table, and to be printed. agreed to.
He then 'gave notice, that, on Friday se'n
night, he would move those estimates in HOUSE OF COMMONS.
the committee of Supply. Mr. Perceval Tuesday, January 13.
wished to know whether the papers inoved [MINUTES.] On the motion of sir F. fór on a former night, by a noble lord, Vane, the order for taking into considera- not now present (Castlereagh,) with a view tion on Tuesday, the 20th instant, the Pe- fto the elucidation of the state of our Mi. tition complaining of an undue return for litary Establishments would be ready bethe Borough of Tregony was discharged, and fore that day. The Secretary at War cona new order made for Tuesday, the 27th inst. ceived the papers now presented, might in --The order of the day having been read a great measure afford the information the for the house going into a committee on noble lord wished for. the Malt Duty bill, it was ordered, on the [AMERICAN TREATY.]General Gascoyne motion of Mr. Vansittart, that it be an in-rose, and observed, that he thought it his struction to the said committee to receive duty to ask the noble lord opposite (Howick) a clause of credit, and a clause to make a question, if the house would so far ina good certain deficiencies. The bill then dulge him. It was of the last importance. passed through a committee, in which these to the commerce and manufactures of the clauses were introduced and agreed to. country in general, and in particular to that
(CONDUCT OF LORD WELLESLEY.) Mr. town which he represented, that some Wellcsley Pole adverting to a notice given explanation should be given of the situa. by a noble lord yesterday (lord Folkestone), tion in which we stood with respect to of a motion on Monday se'nnight, for re- America. It was necessary to give publiprinting the papers relating to the Oude city to the question and the answer, otherCharge, declared that when tlie notice was wise he would have been satisfied with a given he understood that the noble lord private explanation. • A letter had appearmeant to comprehend the whole of the pa- ed in the public papers, with his lordship's pers in his motion. He had since been name to it, from which it appeared that a told, that in answer to a question put by Treaty of Amity, Navigation, and Comone of his majesty's ministers, the noble merce, had been signed between this Bord had expressed his intention of calling country and America, by commissioners for the re-printing of Nos. 3, 4, and 5 only respectively authorized by both governHe therefore rose to give notice, that as ments. The noble lord had left it very