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guments plausible. But lord Yarmouth his majesty's ministers in which it did not had fully testified to the fact stated in his appear that they uniformly dwelt upon that majesty's declaration. That noble lord's point. Indeed lord Yarmouth was sent written evidence was before the house, and back to Paris for the special purpose of þis vivá voce evidence was before the coun- baving the communications verbally made try (see p. 249). Was not that sufficient to to him committed to writing. There was, satisfy the noble lord ? If any man assert- therefore, no degree of incorrectness, ined that the proofs furnished by the docu- accuracy, or looseness, in the conduct of ments on the table were nugatory, as to the this negociation, on the part of this counestablishment of the point respecting the try, whatever might have been the misconuti possidetis, if it were argued that lord duct of France. Unless, indeed, the noble Yarmouth’s notes were inadequate, and lord opposite could allege it as an accusathat further proof was demanded, then he tion against his majesty's ministers that would refer to the words of lord Yarmouth the French government had receded from 80 recently delivered, as the best possible their first propositions; unless he could proof that could be looked for by any rea- shew that our government manifested a sonable man, as amply sufficient to supply disposition to treat upon a different basis, any omission that might appear in the or had actually proposed such basis ; or papers before the house, and as forming rather, unless he could cancel from the rethe most complete justification of those collection of their lordships and the couu. concerned in drawing up that passage in the try the positive directions 10 lord YarDeclaration, to which the noble lord op- mouth to abandon the negociation altogeposite had thought proper to object.-ther if the French goverumeut would not From this point the noble lord proceeded treat on the grounds proposed in the first to the consideration of another, upon instance, it was impossible the noble lord which he was induced to rise : he meant as could make out the charges he had endeato the slur which had been cast by the voured to establish against the conduct of noble lord opposite, upon the conduct of his majesty's ministers. So precise were the negociation. Upon this, he had no ministers on this point, that lord Yarmouth besitation in asserting that the negociation was instructed not to produce his full was commenced under the direction of a powers to the French ministers until the statesman of the most eminent ability; of propositions verbally made to hiin should one who was particularly conversaut" with be formally coufirmed by being committed this department of political knowledge ; of to writing, until be should have a written one who was, beyond any comparison, the document from the French government. ablest diplomatist he had ever known ; The circumstance of that noble lord's ha. certainly by far the ablest he had ever seen. ving produced those powers before his inYet the noble lord, opposite, had been structions were complied with, it was now pleased to find fault with bis mode of pro- unnecessary to discuss ; whatever night ceeding. But that Mr. Fox completely have been the merits of that transaction, understood the general practice of diplo- sure he was that no one would question macy; that his plan of negociation was the motives of that noble lord, or doubt precedented and wise, and that the noble for a nioment that his conduct was actuated lord opposite, mistated that practice, he was by the most sincere and ardent wishes for fully prepared to maintain. The doctrine the interests of his country. It was, how. laid down by the noble lord, that no nego-ever, clear, from the instructions given to ciation should be entered into, unless the that nobleman, that his majesty's ministers first overtures were specifically committed used every means to obtain from the to writing, was, he would affirm, entirely French government a written acknowledgenovel and unprecedented. Nothing was ment of its views, as stated in its first $0 general as to commence with verbal communications by the same nobleman, communications, and then to proceed to For that purpose lord Lauderdale was sent written documents. In this instance the to Paris." At least that was the first object first propositions were made verbally, but to which he was to attend. That noble then in every subsequent dispatch to both man's instructions were, to have committed Jords Yarmouth and Lauderdale, it was to writing the first propositions of the prescribed to have their propositions com- French government, including of course mitted to writing, and there was no dis- the uti possidetis, or else to return to Engpatch transmitted by those noble lords 10 land. The noble lord concluded with obe serving, that he was induced to rise, only ceeded to answer that learned lord's call, with a view to elucidate the two points al- he could not help expressing his surprise luded to by the noble lord opposite, name that it had been made at all. It certainly ly, with regard to the statement in his ma- was rather singular that the learned lord jesty's declaration respecting the uti possi- should apply to him for evidence after detis
, and also in regard to the conduct of having doubted the evidence of lord Yarthe negociation, upon both which points mouth-that he should deem his testihe hoped that he had succeeded in satisfy- mony of any account, after treating that of ing the house that the noble lord's censures lord Yarmouth as perfectly nugatory. were unfounded, that the statement in the Passing this by, however, it did happen that Declaration of his majesty was fully sus- he lord L.) could give ample evidence to taived by the facts of the case, and that the facts questioned by the noble lord opthe conduct of the great statesman who posite. For, independently of lord Yarwas now no more, was not in any instance mouth's having repeatedly stated these more strongly entitled to the esteem, the facts to him, he was enabled to confirma gratitude, and the admiration of his coun- them from other sources, particularly try—that, instead of having deserved the from his own conserences with the minister charge of inaccuracy or incorrectness, bis of France. Without, however, any corromanagementof this negociation was marked boration from his testimony, he would conby the most perfect regularity.
lend that the notes and verbal communiLord Eldon, in explanation, disclaimed cations of lord Yarmouth were quite suffi. any intention of casting a reflection upon cient to sustain the assertions complained the conduct or character of the distin- of in his majesty's Declaration, and also guished statesman alluded to, but repeated to vindicate the conduct of the negociation bis assertion, that in the correspondence from the noble lord's charge of irregula. which took place from March to June, rity. The learned lord professed to have there was not one word about the uri possi- read the papers on the table, and no doubt detis ; and took occasion to obserye, that he had done so with great attention, still he the instructions to lord Yarmouth were, seemed to have overlooked, or but slightly not that he should insist upon the uti possi- considered the dispatch of the 13th of detis, but that he should not produce bis June from lord Yarmouth to Mr. Fox. powers unless it were agreed to leave There the noble lord repeated the words of Sicily in possession of the king of Naples. M. Talleyrand, that that minister had
Lord Lauderdale expressed his happiness been “ looking out for some means by to find, that the address before the house which a secret and confidential communiwas likely to meet with their lordships' cation might be made, explanatory of the ubauimous concurrence, but at the same sentiments and views of France, as well time he could not help observing, that in as the outlines of the terms on which peace the course of the discussion, a vast deal might be restored.” After this followed an of extraneous matter had been introduced, account of the verbal communication of and particularly by the learned lord who M. Talleyrand. Comparing this letter spoke last but one. It was not, however, with that from M. Talleyrand, of the 2d his intention to follow that learned lord of June, the propositions asserted by his either in his irrelevant remarks, or in that noble friend in opening the case, appeared part of bis speech which had relevancy to to him to be completely inade out, and the the subject under consideration. He could objections of the noble lord 10 be most exnot think of detaining the attention of the traordinary indeed. But as to the conduct house as to the one, and the able and im- of Mr. Fox, it was to be recollected, that pressive manner in which the case had he wrote two letters on the 14th of June, been opened by his noble friend on the the one in reply to such part of M. Talbench near him (lord Grenville) rendered leyrand's communication as was written; it quite unnecessary for him to offer many and the other, presenting lord Yarmouth observations with regard to the other. as an authorised person to make to the He did not rise, therefore, so much with French minister a verbal answer to such the intention of adding any thing in the verbal communications as that uoble lord shape of argument to what the house had was authorized by that minister to convey heard from his noble friend, as in order to to this country. Could any fault be gise bis testiinony to the learned lord op- found by any candid man, with that posite (lord Eldon). But, before he pro- mode of proceeding on the score of regularity ? Certainly not. But the noble lord | this basis referred to the uti possidetis, the opposite inferred that the uti possidetis was learned lord opposite fixed upon the first not insisted upon by lordYarınouih, because communication from France, and finding in Sicily alone was mentioned. He called that Buonaparte's speech to his senate, in upon the noble lord, however, to exanine which he spoke of the basis of the treaty of the dispatch of the 1st of July. There Amiens, lhe noble lord insisted that such lord Yarmouth states, that in a conversa- was the probable basis originally proposed tion with M. Talleyrand he mentioned the by the French government. Now, it hapimpossibility of going on any farther upon pened that the nuble lord was rather some, the outlines of peace“ unless he should re-what confused in his examination. For turn to the former grounds, and consider the negociation was not at all on the tapis Sicily in its true sense---unless be caine at the time this speech was made, and strictly within the meaning of liis own therefore the sentiment quoted from it, words." To what then could this refer had no connection with the case before the but to some general proposition before house. Indeed, the whole was confounding made, and the return of that proposition an anicable correspondence between two was easily deducible from this dispatch. individuals, one of whom was sincerely an, The existence indeed of such general pro- xious for peace, with the official communiposition appeared clearly froin the words of cations of public ministers.-With respect Di. Talleyrand, that a change of circuin- to the continuance of the negociation after stances was always to be considered as a his arrival in Paris, he referred, for the jusreason for a change of terms. Further, it lification of his conduct, to the documents was to be observed, that the change then on the table, confident that it would aparose out of the opinion which Buonaparte pear from them that he had not unnecessahad just adopted, that Sicily could be cap- rily or improperly prolonged his stay after tured by bim with ease. Thus the French he found the French government unwilling government thought proper to rece de from to act according to the principles upon their first propositions. In this instance which alone he was authorized to proceed; indeed they avowed and attempted to jus- therefore no charge of procrastination was tify the chance, and in terms too which attributable to him, for bis delay at Paris pretty intelligibly implied the nature of would have been very short indeed, were it. For why insist upon Sicily? because it possible for him to have obtained passthey thought they could get it into their ports as soon as he applied for them. Any possession, and the connection of posses- time that he remained at Paris, in consesion, with the avowed change of ternis in quence of apparently pacitic changes in the this instance, led at least tv a natural and conduct and tone of the French ininister, obvious inference in favour of the argu-land particularly in consequence of the ment respecting uti possidetis. But there (change produced by the intelligence of the was no occasion to rest upon inferences. non-ratitication of the Russian treaty, was Lord Yarmouth had, in his presence, stated dictated by an anxious desire to avail himto M. Talleyrand himself, the original pro- self of any favourable opportunity that positions of that minute, respecting the promised to secure the great object his uti possidetis, as referred to in his majes- mission had in view, and in that to secure ty's declaration, without meeting any the honour and interests of his country. thing like a denial. The learned lord of- With regard to the letter alluded to by posite would admit, that there was a very the learned lord opposite, he could say, material difference between a controversy that during his stay in Paris he experienced as to the inferences deducible from a pro- no wart of civility whatever; nor did be position, and the giving a distinct contra- know of any thing different, until be saw, diction to the proposition itself. Now, in this country, the posthumous letter arla whatever there might have been of the for- dressed to bim in the Moniteur.—The adner, Talleyrand never uttered any thing dress was then read from the Woolsuck, at all approaching to the latter. On the and agreed to, nem. diss.-Adjourned at 11 contrary, iideed, lord Yarmouth's asser-Jo'clock. tion appeared evidently from the language and conduct of M. Talleyrand 10 ascertain
HOUSE OF COMMONS. an admitted indisputable fact, as 10 the
Friday, January 2. original basis of the negociation. But, in [MINUTES.] Mr. Vansittart brought up order to controvert the statement, that the Alall-Duty will, and the Pensions Duly
bill, which were read a first time; he then | been returned for the county of Kerry,
lle stated, that the recognizance had been
due time to be returned to town, but owing
to some unaccountable delay, its trans[Mixutes.] The Speaker acquainted mission back to town had been delayed. the bouse, that he having been returned The Speaker observed, that it was his duty to serve in parliameit for the University of to call the attention of the house to this Oxford, and also for the borough of Hey- subject. By a resolution of the house, the tesbury, it was necessary that he should recognizance upon a petition, complaining make his election, for which of those of an undue election, should be returned places be would serve; and, therefore, he within 14 days after presenting such petiinformed the house that he had made his tion; this had not been done in the preelection to serve for the university of Ox- sent case, but a reason had been stated for ford.—lle also acquainted the house, that this delay; it was therefore his duty to he had received a letter from John Low. lay the facts before the house, that the ther,
who had been returned for the house might consider whether there were county of Cumberland, and also for the suficient grounds for admitting the receipt borough of Cockermouth; stating, that he of such petition. The question was then bad made his election to serve for the put upon bringing up ihe petition, and county of Cumberland.He also informed carried, nem.con. The petition being then the house, that he had received a letter sead, the time for returving the recognifrom Sir C. Hawkins, bart, who had been zance was enlarged until Wednesday next. returned for the boroughs of Grampound, Micbael, and Penrhyn, against which latter return a petition had been presented, and
Monday, January 5. then lay on the table; stating that he had [THETFORD ELECTION.) Mr. Whitbrcad made his election to serve for the borough moved for discharging the order for taking of Grampound.- lle also informed the the petition into consideration on the 27th house, that he had received a lever from instant, for the purpose of moving its conthe right hon. Maurice Fitzgerald, who had sideration on a future day. The grounds
II OUSE OF COMMONS.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
that he stated for this motion were, that a supposed irregularity, such a number of there was a number of persons who voted voters, as would in fact change the corpothat were supposed to have no legal right ration itself. After distinguishing this case to vote, and that therefore it was advise- from the cases of Harwich and East Retable to try the legality of their votes in ford, he hoped the house would not now the usual manner, by moving a quo war- establish such a precedent for attacking Tanto in the Court of King's Bench. There corporate bodies. had not bitherto been sufficient time Mr. Whitbread was not conscious of for trying the validity of those votes in having said any thing which the hon. gent. that manner, as the election was on the was justified in considering as a personal 4th of November, and the last terin ended attack on himself. The question was mereon the 26th. The object of his motion ly a legal question, whether a certain dewas, therefore, such a delay as would al-scription of persons bad or had not the low time for the question to be determined right of voting. If they had, the hon. by a court of law. He should therefore gent, was secure of his seat; if they had afterwards move, that the consideration of not, he would of course be removed from the petition be postponed until the 12th of his seat. He could not suppose the object February.
of the petition was by any means to harass Mr. Mingay declared, that he rose under him, or keep him, as he had expressed it, considerable trepidation and aların. If he in hot water. Although it was possible were to say tbat it was diffidence, at pre- that for the last 5 years, illegal votes might senting himself to a public assembly, such have been received, yet, if the flaw was not a declaration from a man of his years, and discovered until the last election, the petiof his former professional habits, would tioners were in suthcient linie. draw down ridicule ; but he felt 'seriously Mr. Mingay again stated, that it was not distressed, when be considered that he was one term only that they had lain by, but it .so personally and pointedly attacked. was five years and one term. He was, Until yesterday he had not the slightest therefore, against the motion for discharidea that any member of that house would ging the order. bring forward such a motion. Although it Mr. Bragge Bathurst considered that the was true, that the election of Thetford house had hardly sufficient materials to was on the 4th of November, yet the fact decide on, having only two contradictory was, that the point now at issue had been statements. He thought, however, that as settled five years ago, and had been ever to this flaw, wbich bad been only disco. since acquiesced in. It was not one term vered the other day, the courts of law alone that the petitioners had had to try would be as slow to lend themselves to the law of the question, but every term the overturning corporate rights as the since the year 1801 they might have committees of the house of commons. brought it forward, if they had thought The Attorney-General had no objection proper. The question went to nothing to the delay of a fortnight, which was all less than tearing to pieces the corporate that was asked for in the first instance, but rights of that borough, and dissolving the he could not see why the petitioners sufcorporation. This was a petition that the fered all the last termi to pass over without house would not shew peculiar favour to ; moving for a writ of quo warranto. This and he hoped they would not let it bang was all they could do in the course of the for ever over bis head, as he believed the next term, and that would be very far real object of the petitioners was to keep from deciding the question. him as long in hot water as possible. It Mr. Whitbread observed, that the delay was the death of an old alderman (his bro- of a fortnight was all he asked in the first ther) that occasioned this petition. There instance, and if, at the end of that period, were complaints now of what a man, who he could not lay sufficient grounds for was alderman, and afterwards mayor of postponing it further, the bouse of course the town, had done in 1801, 2, 3. A great would not consent to put it off longer. part of the voters that had been inade Mr. Rose considered that it was likely, during that time were now sought to be dis- that postponing it upon the grounds that franchised. There was however, no objec- were stated, would make it necessary that tion made to the votes made by that alder- it should be postponed so long, ibat it man in 1801, and yet, after so many years, could not be determined in the course of the petitioners wished to disfranchise, on the present session.