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Mr. Bragge Bathurst dissented completely from the opinion of the hon. gentleman who spoke last. This was not a measure of unnecessary legislation. It was only, as the noble lord had stated, following up the principle which had already been adopted by the house. It was not a matter of legislation at all, but of regulation only. The adoption of the resolutions, he contended, would be attended with great con venience both to the parties and to particular members, as well as to the house. Parties could not force their agents to come to the house within a particular time; and with regard to the expences of such delays, they were completely in the hands of these agents. The house, therefore, ought to assist them and enable them to obtain justice with as little expence, and with as much dispatch as possible.

be made within six or eight weeks from lating after the birth day, for, last year, parthe same time, so as to enable the lords liament had sat long after that time, and to pass the bills before the birth-day. He decided upon matters of the highest imwould, therefore, propose that the 11th portance. He apprehended too that the of May should be the last day, for recei-adoption of these resolutions might be ving reports upon private bills. Some very inconvenient both to the agents and greater delay might be allowed in cases of the parties. Irish bills. But though 21 days must intervene between the first and second readings of such bills, he still thought that they might very well be brought within this general rule. But the house, in adopting a general rule, did not give up its discretion. Even at present, the standing order of the house was dispensed with in cases of notices upon special cause being shewn. But at the same time it would be important to adhere to the general rule, except in very particular cases; for its utility would be destroyed, if it should be once understood that it could be dispensed with on slight grounds. It would be of great convenience to the parties and to the members, especially members of counties,that the private business should be completed with all possible dispatch. He concluded by moving, That the order, fixing the last Friday of February as the last day on which private petitions should be received be read, that the 26th of March should be appointed as the last day for receiving private bills, that the 11th of May should be fixed as the last day for receiving reports upon these bills, and that an order should be made for promulgating these resolutions, that every one might have due notice of them." They were only resolutions for the present year, and matter of experiment. If they should be found useful and practical, they might hereafter be settled as orders. He had the concurrence of the country gentlemen, and of those who might be supposed to be best acquainted with the subject and most interested in it, and therefore, he presumed, there could be no serious objection to the resolutions which he proposed.

Mr. Johnstone observed, that as the noble lord had the concurrence of the county members, and of those who were best acquainted with the subject, he had no very great objection to these propositions, But he must say, at the same time, that they were what a right hon. friend of the noble lord's (Mr. Windham) had charac terized as measures of unnecessary legisla! tion, The grounds stated by the noble lord did not altogether bear him out. He had not proved that any great inconvenieuce resulted from those bills accumu

Mr. Fuller highly approved of the reso lutions, as they might be the means of shortening the session, and prove very convenient to the country gentlemen, and to those who did not come to the house to make their fortunes.

Mr. Fellowes agreed that they would be very convenient. He himself had often felt the great inconvenience attending the delays that took place in cases of private bills, and thought that the house was under great obligations to the noble lord for having turned his attention to the subject. He suggested the propriety of having the private bills enumerated in the votes, and the days in which they came on, that nem bers might have the earliest and most authentic notice on that point. This he merely threw out as a suggestion for the consideration of his lordship.

Mr. Johnstone, observing upon the point of shortening the session, asked whether the noble lord was diffident as to the num ber and sentiments of his friends, since he betrayed so much anxiety to get rid of them?

Lord Howick replied, that he only felt anxious to promote the convenience of the house and of the parties. Suppose that from what happened last year, that members should expect that 78 reports of private bills might be received after the birth-day, the consequence would be, that,

the bill. It was called a bill for abolishing the Slave trade. But did the noble lord mean that it sho go to the abolition of the Slave Trade in general, both in the West Indies and on the coast of Africa; or was it the African Slave trade only that was meant to be abolished? It was his firm opinion, that even the African Slave Trade could not be abolished, unless the mea

if the public business could be soou finished, parliament must either sit to pass these private bills or they must be lost, and all the expence attending them would be to no purpose. As to his anxiety about dismissing his friends, he wished that, on a former occasion, an opportunity had been given of shewing the sense of the house, and he hoped that the hon. gent, would take the earliest opportunity of doing so. The re-sures taken by this government were consolutions were then agreed to, and ordered to be printed.

HOUSE OF LORDS.

curred in by other powers. This appeared to have been the opinion of parliament in the last session, when the address al luded to by his noble friend was voted.

Friday, January 2. Lord Grenville repeated, that he was [SLAVE TRADE.] Lord Grenville brought sensible of the high importance of the sub inabill for abolishing the Slave Trade, which ject to be discussed, but he was also, in his was read a first time. His lordship then rose own mind, convinced that the time was to move, that the bill be printed, and took now arrived when no solid objection could that opportunity of observing, that no person be offered to the abolition of the traffic in could be more sensible than he was of the slaves on the coast of Africa. On this great importance of the measure now sub-question he believed there was, generally mitted to the house, and of the propriety of speaking, but very little difference of opigiving full time for its due consideration. He therefore informed their lordships, that he intended to give about a fortnight's notice before he should move the second reading. When the printed copies of the bill were on the table, he should propose to fix alquired, but such as the peculiar importance day for the next motion; in the mean time be moved, that the bill be printed.

nion in this country; but this was not the day on which it was to be discussed. Be fore the day for the second reading should be fixed, he intended not only to give such notice as the other orders of the house re

of the subject itself demanded. Whether we were to continue the African Slave trade, because there were difficulties in the way of abolishing it in the West Indies, or whether we were to practise a great enormity, because other persons in other countries might not choose to abandon it, the house was not then called upon to decide. The only question at present before their lordships was, whether this bill should be printed. He did not therefore think it necessary to enter into the consi deration of topics, the discussion of which, at this moment, could serve no purpose but that of delay.

Lord Hawkesbury said, that he thought it necessary to call the attention of the house to the proceedings of the last session of parliament, on the subject now under consideration. It would be recollected that a Resolution was then come to, for an address to his majesty, which was nearly in the same terms as the preamble of the bill the noble lord had introduced. The object of that address was to learn how far other powers were disposed to concur in the abolition of the Slave trade. He thought, therefore, that their lordships ought to be put in possession of any Lord Eldon remarked, in explanation correspondence which might have taken that he had intimated no wish for delay. place with other governments in con- No such sentiment had ever at any time sequence of that address. Whether there fallen from his lips as a desire to procrasti had been any communications between his nate the determination of the house our majesty's government and the governments this important subject. He had only callof other countries on this subject or not, ed upon the noble lord to state, whether, parliament ought to be made acquainted by the bill for abolishing the Slave trade, with the fact. He should not press any he meant the African Slave trade, or the motion on this topic at present, but it was trade in general. The noble lord, he underone which ought to be explained when stood, had admitted that the bill was to their lordships proceeded to the considera-extend to the African trade only. He tion of the bill. thought, however, that their lordships Lord Eldon thought that some explana would, upon consideration, find that this tion was necessary respecting the title of mode of proceeding was impracticable, YOL VIII.

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and that, if they consented to put an end will nevertheless be perceived by your to the trade on the coast of Africa, the ap- lordships, that there are several omissions plication of the same principle would ne-in the papers, omissions which could not be cessarily compel them to extend the abo-supplied without injury to this country or lition to the West-India Islands.

Earl Grosvenor expressed his anxious wish to see the odious traffic in human beings every where abolished.

The Duke of Clarence observed, that he had not opposed the first reading of the bill, because he always considered that proceeding a matter of form, and wished to reserve what he had to say until the subsequent stages of the bill. For the same reason, he should not oppose the motion for printing the bill. As, however, other noble lords had thought fit to bring the subject of the Slave Trade in some degree into discussion, his royal highness would just take the liberty of observing, that he had frequently given his opinion on that important question since he had had a seat in parliament, and his opinion was well known to the house and to the public. His sentiments, he assured their lordships, still remained unaltered, and it would require very great and very unexpected arguments indeed to induce him to change his mind on a subject which he had so maturely considered. The bill was then read a first time, and ordered to be printed.

to our allies. It must be evident, that the instructions given to our minister for the regulation of his conduct during the negociation with which he was intrusted, could not be given amongst these documents, without the risk of injury to our interests. To reveal the instructions given to a minister employed to negociate a peace, must necessarily reveal the value which we set upon possessions or upon cessions, and the motives which actuate the government in consenting to give up, or desiring to retain the one, or to insist upon the other: a species of information, which it is evident must be of inestimable advantage to the enemy. It is not merely, however, with respect to ourselves that it becomes important to omit certain documents, but also with a view to the interests of our allies. It is not enough that the publication of documents and papers will not be injurious to yourselves; but you have no right to set up that as an argument for a publi cation, which may tend to reveal something the knowledge of which by an enemy nay be injurious to your ally. The forms of our constitution require in certain cases the [NEGOCIATION WITH FRANCE.] The publication of the documents which have order of the day being read for summon-passed between our government and that ing their lordships to take into considera-of a foreign state, and if an inconvenience tion the Papers relative to the late Nego- to ourselves sometinies arises from this ciation with France, practice, it is overbalanced by the benefits Lord Grenville rose, and spoke as follows: resulting from that constitution; but you My lords, having had the honour of pre-have no right to set up the forms of your senting to your lordships the Papers rela- constitution as a reason for publishing what tive to the late Negociation between this may tend to injure your ally. Conceiving, country and France, it now becomes my therefore, that the omissions in these paduty to move your lordships to address his pers are fully justified, and that the papers majesty on the result of that negociation. themselves are sufficiently ample to give I do not think it necessary to enter into every information relative to the negocia any lengthened detail upon a subject which tion, I shall not enter into a detail, which is already so fully and amply before your is already in your lordships' possession. lordships by means of the papers on the My object is to move an address to his matable. The documents which are in your jesty, humbly and gratefully acknowledlordships' hands, are fuller and more am-ging his majesty's desire to restore to his ple than have been presented to parliament subjects the blessings of peace, assuring on any former occasion of a similar na-his majesty of our conviction that the faiture, certainly more so than in those cases lure of the negociation entered into for respecting which it has formerly been my that purpose did not arise from any failure duty to present papers to parliament. It in his majesty's paternal regard for the welwould not, perhaps, have been advisable fare of his people, but is wholly to be atthat these papers should be so minute intributed to the exorbitant demands and their details, had it not been for the very ambitious views of France, and pledging full, though not equally correct statement ourselves to concur, in every effort, to published by the French goverument. It support his majesty in the continuance of

1807.-Negociation with France.

the contest. I will now, my lords, briefly were, however, of a description totally disnotice a few of the leading principles which tinct, and could not be exchanged with any characterize the Negociation, which is the prospect of advantage to either country. subject of our discussion. There can be This country being a great maritime and no doubt that peace was desirable, if a colonial power, and France a great conti- ' peace could be obtained consistently with nental power, there could be no reciprocity the honour and the interests of this coun- of cession between the two powers, which try. It must always be desirable to put an could in any degree tend to their mutual end to the calamities of war, and every advantage. The conquests made by this state actuated by enlightened views of country could be of no use to France, unpolicy, will necessarily consider the prose-less she could become a great commercial cution of war as the means of obtaining an and colonial power; the conquests made honourable, a secure, and a permanent by France could be of no use to this counpeace; a peace which shall ensure safety try, unless she could become a great conagainst the renewal of war, and safety in tinental power. Thus, the state of actual the conduct of it in the event of its renew-possession appeared to me to be the only al. There may be cases in which a nation, true basis of negociation between this ' actuated by views of sound policy, may country and France, the only basis upon think it advisable to make great sacrifices which peace ought to be established, under for the purpose of obtaining a peace, the circumstances in which that negociation which bears every promise of being perma- took place, the only basis on which it could uent. If we look back to the treaties of rationally be founded, viewing the relative peace formerly concluded by this country, situation of the two countries, regarding we find that though, of course, they could also the situation of Europe, and the slennot be considered as permanent, yet that der prospect of a peace concluded under they produced a considerable interval of such circumstances, producing any consi tranquillity, an interval which might then derable interval of tranquillity, and for the be fairly calculated upon, and which, inas- attainment of which, therefore, no valuable much as it served to recruit and increase sacrifices ought to be made by this counthe resources of the country, was worth try, because they could not ensure to us making sacrifices to obtain. In this view safety against the immediate renewal of the of the subject, and with the moral certain- war. This was, therefore, the basis which ty of obtaining a considerable interval of I thought the only one which ought to be tranquillity, valuable sacrifices, I do not the foundation of a treaty of peace between mean merely valuable in point of finance, this country and France, if such a treaty of commerce, or of revenue, but valuable was to be attained, and this also was the in point of strength, might consistently opinion of those with whom I had the howith sound policy and expediency be made nour to act, amongst whom and myself the for the purpose of obtaining a treaty of greatest and most perfect unanimity prepeace. But those who consider the state vailed, previous to, and from the moment of Europe for 6 years, or I may say for 13 of, the commencement of the negociation or 14 years past, must be convinced that to its close. During the whole procedure there was no rational hope of any conside- of that negociation, from the hour it berable interval, of tranquillity following a gan till the moment of its breaking off, we treaty of peace with France. It became had but one opinion upon the subject, and therefore an object in this negociation, to unanimously concurred in all the steps seek out for an equivalent to set up against taken during its progress. I have already that want of permanence, which must at- observed that the state of actual possession tend any peace made under such circum- was the only basis which appeared to his stances. Valuable sacrifices could not be majesty's ministers to be the fit and proper inade to obtain an unstable and insecure basis for our negociation with France. It peace. I was therefore, my lords, of opi- will not, however, be supposed, that a nenion, and still am of opinion, that the on-gociation upon the basis of actual posses ly basis upon which we ought to treat with sion, was to exclude a discussion of equiFrance, was that of actual possession. We valents to be given for certain cessions to had made several valuable conquests by means of our maritime superiority, whilst France had made great and extensive conquests on the continent. Those conquests

be agreed upon. This is necessarily in. cluded in a negociation, taking for its basis the state of actual possession, inasmuch as it naturally arises out of the relations of

states, which come to be discussed in the against the enemy, Let there be a stipulas progress of such a negociation. This too tion that one party shall not make peace is the more necessary where a negociation without the consent of the other, and then involves the interests of allies, the pro- there will be that community of interest, curing for whom of advantages, of course and that unity of action which in the pre➡ gives rise to a discussion as to the equiva-sent circumstances of Europe are so absolents to be given, or the sacrifices to be lutely necessary to make head against the made by the powers negociating, to pro-enemy. Even, however, supposing that cure advantageous cessions for their re- the treaty with Russia, to which I have spective allies. My lords, when his ma-just alluded, had not been wisely conclujesty's present ministers came into office, ded; still the sacred engagement of the sothey found a treaty concluded by their vereign having been given to Russia, his predecessors with Russia, in which each majesty's ministers were bound to act in party bound itself not to conclude peace, compliance with the injunctions of that without the consent of the other. I am treaty, and to fulfil its conditions. Thus, not about to question the wisdom of therefore, the negociation commenced in such a treaty; on the contrary, I think it compliance with the injunctions of that a wise measure. I am decidedly of opinion, treaty, and, at the same time, with those that if what remains of Europe is to be views with regard to our other allies, which maintained, if Europe is to be recovered, were dictated by justice and good faith. as I trust it will be recovered, it can only Amongst those allies were to be classed be by a firm bond of union, a strict al- those to whom we were bound by treaty, liance between this country and the powers and those to whom we were bound by the of the continent. When I declare that a circumstances which had occurred during wise treaty, in which one party cannot make the war, and the situations in which they peace without the consent of the other, I were placed, in consequence of the events am not to have extreme cases put for the of that war. Of the former class of allies purpose of shewing that inconveniencies were Sweden and Portugal; and of the may arise from such a stipulation. My latter, Naples and the elector of Hanover; auswer to such an argument is short-that who, in this case, must be considered as a extreme cases ought not to be put, Ex-separate and distinct power, With respect treme cases cannot be included in, nor to Sweden and Portugal, nothing more was ought they to be an objection to, a general required than to guarantee to those powers rule; they must be met and provided for their state of actual possession; no conon their own specific grounds. An extreme quests having been made by them which it case may be put, that Russia might demand, was necessary to cede, nor any thing taken as a condition of peace, that half the old from them respecting which it was ne French monarchy should be ceded to her; cessary to enter into discussion. The king in that case, it is not to be supposed that of Naples stood in a different situation; this country would continue the war upon he had unfortunately, like too many other such a ground. Such extreme cases, how-continental states, been deprived, by the ever, may be put out of the argument, power of France, of all his dominions on having no connection, in fact, with the the continent of Europe. My lords, I broad and general principle on which such have no hesitation in saying, that I would treaties are concluded, It is not enough have consented to make sacrifices uot for this country merely to form an alliance with the powers, of the continent, who themselves near the enemy, and subject to his immediate inroads, feel all the horrors of war in the heart of their territories, whilst we, free from all fear of participating in their calamities, conceive ourselves at liberty to withdraw from the contest and make peace whenever it suits our con venience. This is not a system which can lead to any practical good. The powers of the continent will not, under such a system, feel that community of interest which is absolutely necessary to effect any thing

merely valuable in finance, in revenue, or
in commerce, but even sacrifices of safety
and of strength, to procure the restoration
to the king of Naples of the kingdom of
Naples; but no sacrifices that we could
make, could have been an equivalent ta
France for the restoration of the kingdom
of Naples. It therefore necessarily became
a discussion of equivalents, with the view
of indemnifying the king of Naples for the
loss of his kingdom somewhere else. With
respect to Sicily, the king of Naples was
still in possession of that island, or rather,
I would say, it was in the possession of a

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