was only right and proper that an English gentleman, who had visited the country himself, should come forward wherever an opportunity offered, to bear public testimony to what his own eyes had seen. (Applause.) A short time ago, when visiting the peninsula of Dingle, he found there were seven churches existing, with congregations and resident ministers, where no Protestant minister had ever found his way before. He had also visited other parts of the country, where the same prosperity was manifested. He visited parts of Connemara and Limerick, and wherever he went he found congregations of active and zealous men, under wise and zealous tutelage; and he was perfectly satisfied that the instruction he heard given, and the spirit he saw manifested, were those of earnest zeal for their own religion and opinions, without hostilityto the persons of those from whom they differed. (Applause.) There was nothing existing of what was called in Ireland political proselytism; the feeling, if any there were, was purely religious. He also found those in the north of Ireland who were most earnest in their principles, employing Roman Catholic workmen and tradesmen, without any distinction whatever. The work of the missions was, however, prosecuted under considerable difficulty, as he had several times had an opportunity of testifying. On every hand there were symptoms of a good work carried on in a good spirit, and he could not for the life of him make out why people accused the Church of Ireland of inefficiency and hostility. (Applause.) He knew some persons who were very unwilling to see controversies at all; but he confessed he thought it was a symptom of life: and he did not mind, even in their own Church, to see a little controversy, because it was a sign of life. There was a peace, but it was the peace of death and stagnation. He could add his testimony to what had been said as to the difficulty of making progress on account of the emigration movement. It was impossible that the converts could largely increase, because when they had been educated and highly trained they "hived off;" and under these circumstances it was really a proof of progress that the numbers, if they had not increased, had not diminished. (Applause.)

The LORD BISHOP OF OXFORD was received with loud applause. He said: I can assure this meeting that I came into the room to-day without the smallest idea of being called upon to say a word on this subject. I wished to be instructed by my Irish brethren-great masters in stating a good subject well. That is what I wished to have done. But, on the desire of those who have brought this subject forward, I think I have no right to refuse to say one word. And for this reason. I have had myself great pleasure in going round that district in Connemara with Mr. Plunket, who read the first paper to-day, and I think it is due, therefore, to him and to me, and to those who have brought this subject forward, that I should state to you, as I think I can state without the shadow of a doubt, that those imputations which have been cast upon that work, of its being a mere mercenary work, and that those who have come over to our purer views of the faith have come over because they have been bought, or were given food, or the like; that such statements are absolutely without a shadow of a foundation. (Applause.) I certainly saw some things that I disapproved of in the management of the missions; and I took the liberty, at the time, of stating my opinions of them with the fullest openness to my friends there. I also saw a great deal that I approved and rejoiced in heartily. But about this there could be no mistake-that these men were as deeply convinced in their own souls that they were come over for the sake of God's truth, and for that only, as it was possible for any men to be. (Applause.) Further, I could go on to say that I went round the schools of that district; that I was almost astonished at the intellectual development and at the scriptural knowledge of the scholars; and that I saw at least in one of the orphanages-that at Clifton-a practical example of the kindness of great Christian love, tending for Christ's sake Christ's little ones. (Applause.) I much rejoice to be able to say how heartily I agree with what fell in the early part of his address from Canon M'Neile, I mean that a fatal thing in the Church of Ireland, as an establishment, is to leave the abuses which are dominant in her, instead of attempting to remedy them. It is on these abuses that the attacks on the Church of Ireland rest, and I think it would not be very difficult, if you only trusted the men who ought to guide the affairs of the Church in Ireland with the necessary discretion,--the bishops and the two archbishops, especially-I think it would not be difficult to remove the greatest at least of these abuses. whole idea of the Church of Ireland, if I understand it aright, is, that it is to be a missionary church. Now, it is not the notion of a missionary church that it should provide for two families (say for instance) of Protestants, in a wide district, a clergyman and church, and an income, with glebe and garden; and that

The

it should leave all other districts of the same church where God has stirred the minds of men, and brought them to the truth-that there it should leave no provision for doing His work among the people. There should be, I think, the power of temporarily, at least, removing the work of the instituted clergyman from the parish where he can do nothing to a district where he can do everything. (Applause.) Now, my lord, as my time is almost out ("Go on," and applause), I shall only say that I, for one, do believe that the interests of the two churches are bonded together most strongly; that I believe we are bound, in love to our fellow-countrymen in Ireland, to endeavour earnestly to impart to them the purity of the faith which we have recovered in England; and it is upon this ground, I think, the church in Ireland is to be maintained. (Hear, hear.) With that perfect openness which Canon M'Neile has invited by his remarks, I am bound to say, if I am permitted to speak at all, that I cannot subscribe to what he said in the concluding part of his speech. Of course I must have my opinion as he has his. (Hear, hear.) I go myself to the uttermost letter of every condemnation which our Prayer Book and our Articles and our formularies contain, of the corruptions of the Church of Rome. I would not water them down. I dare not lessen them. I believe them to be great, fearful, and increasing. I have therefore a definite and distinct position as maintaining for my own church the primitive doctrines of the church in agreement with the revealed word of God; but I for one dare not hold, and, being obliged to speak, most solemnly enter my protest against the statement, and we have no right whatever to say it, that no member of the Church of Rome is in a condition to be saved. (Loud applause.)

Canon M'NEILE: I never said so. (Loud applause.)

The BISHOP of OXFORD: Few things have given me greater pleasure than to hear that statement from Canon M'Neile, because it shows me that he agrees with me, instead of disagreeing with me, upon this important question. I understood him to say words to this effect. I understood him to say that we could not maintain the Church in Ireland unless we distinctly stated that there was not saving truth in the Popish communion. (Hear, hear.) That I distinctly understood him to say. I rejoice, however, to hear that he did not mean what those words convey to my mind. We must not for a moment, I think, veil our condemnation of error; but I have lived long enough to know that nothing helps error more completely than to overstate any fact. (Loud applause, and slight interruption.)

The PRESIDENT: If Canon M'Neile-(interruption)-wishes to make a brief explanation (renewed interruption and cries of "Chair"), he may do so; but I must request that these interruptions during speaking be avoided.

Canon M'NEILE: What I did say was this-that if the Church in Ireland be for a minority, and if the majority have saving Christianity without it, I for one did not see how it was to be maintained. I am therefore committed to the statement, that, in my opinion, Romanism is not saving Christianity. (Applause.) But I am not committed to the statement that no individual member of the Romish Church can be saved. (Loud applause.) We know well and feel strongly that there are individuals belonging to our own Church who disparage our own doctrines, and do not live according to them, or agree with them even in theory. I believe there are members of the Roman Catholic Church who are not Roman Catholics, and do not worship the cross, and who do not say prayers to the Virgin, which I believe is as rank idolatry as—(boisterous cheering, which drowned the remainder of the sentence.)

Mr. A. J. B. BERESFORD HOPE said the Church was doing battle against Popery and infidelity, and the best system was to bring the clergy and the laity together to the work of conversion, in bringing home to the people the errors of Romanism and showing the purity of the Church of England. It was a curious thing that the development of co-operative energy in the united Church, which he would call briefly the cathedral movement (hear, hear), took rise in the Irish Church. He had no formal resolution to propose, but he would proclaim the fact, in the hope of its gaining publicity, that those who thought the Church of England would stand quietly by and see the Irish Church made a Jonah of, had committed error. (Applause.) He further said, as a Churchman, that they were fighting a winning and not a losing battle; and that the Irish Church in passing through the present crisis-if a crisis it was-had come forward in a true spirit of cooperation. (Applause.)

The Rev. CHARLES RICE said his only claim to be heard was that of an impartial man, because he was an Englishman by birth and education, but that

AFTERNOON.]

Discussion.

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during the last seven years he had resided in Ireland. He complained that visitors to Ireland did not judge the progress of the country fairly, for they generally saw the worst side. He believed that in some respects Englishmen might take a lesson from the Church of Ireland. He believed that the ministers they provided were far in advance of the English clergy, and that Irish clergymen knew more about their people. He also believed that the Church of England was indebted for a great number of her best and most faithful clergymen to the best divinity school, which was the Irish university. In reference to Mr. Plunket's paper, it was there stated that the movement now being made was essentially a Church movement; but he was sorry to say that it did not command the approbation of one half the clergy; and he had heard a distinguished Irish prelate say that it had thrown back the conversion of Ireland for a half a century. The Rev. J. M'GUIRE said it would be a great advantage if Irishmen were taught more in their own language; and no attempt had been made to do this. What Ireland wanted from the beginning of the Reformation, was missionary bishops-men who were willing and ready to do their work of conversion without reference to political creed or party.

The Rev. CANON TREVOR (York) said that Mr. Plunket, in the opening paper, had spoken in terms of approbation to two applications lately made to the Crown by the Irish prelates. The first was for the assembly of a general synod of the United Church. He had predicted the failure of that application, and was not sorry that the law officers of the crown had not advised Her Majesty to embark on a great and unknown experiment, that, if it had failed, must have brought down in ruins all the results obtained by the patient labour of many years in this country. (Hear. hear.) A general synod of the United Church was a thing wholly unknown. No one could say how it should be constituted, how conducted, or how its decisions were to be carried out in the several Provinces of the United Church. What we had been doing in England was to test the existing forces of the Church, without applying to the Crown or to parliament any further than was required by law or than we could feel sure of the result. The pulse of public opinion must be felt and more general support conciliated before any great extension of the existing constitution could be attempted. (Hear, hear.) The second application of the Irish bishops was for the revival of what was called the Irish Convocation, and that, he understood, was not yet decided upon. He hardly wished a better fate for this application than for the other. (A laugh.) He openly called the Irish Convocation a piece of unmitigated Erastianism. It owed its existence to a very questionable exercise of arbitrary power on the part of the Lord Deputy Stafford, in the reign of Charles I., the object being to force on the Irish Church the English Canons and Articles, which, as being inconsistent in two points with their own Articles, their own synods were not willing to adopt. In that proceeding the crown took upon itself to appoint the Archbishop of Dublin president of the Convocation over the head of the Lord Primate of all Ireland. The Convocation was no part of the organisation of the Church in Ireland. The Crnwo writs did not issue for its assembling in regular cases, as they did for the Convocations of Canterbury and York. He would humbly submit to the two Primates of Ireland that it was open to them to convene the Provincial Synods of Armagh and Dublin. These were the ancient ecclesiastical synods of Ireland. They had this advantage over our own archbishops, that they were not under the Act of Submission. (Hsar, hear.) He had the authority of the highest lawyers in Ireland for that statement. The Act of Submission, by which the archbishop was restrained from summoning a Provincial Synod without a royal writ, never passed the Irish Parliament; and the only way in which it could be binding on an Irish archbishop would be from the indirect operation of the Act of Union (1800). But the Act of Submission, being highly penal, would not be extended to prelates and clergy of Ireland by indirect construction of the Act of Union, an act designed as a boon to the Irish Church, and not a restraint upon her liberty. In-Ireland no restraint was imposed on the synods by any law of the state, and therefore the law of the Church, by which every archbishop was entitled and considered to hold his Provincial synod, was in operation. (Hear, hear.) He conceived that, if the Archbishops of Dublin and Armagh should be advised to exercise their powers, the synodal development of the Church would be greatly assisted. Questions such as those proposed to the Congress this day might fitly be discussed in an Irish Sydod, and receive from such deliberations a solution which could not be expected from any other course. Churchmen in England would listen the deanest, interest to the voice of the Irish branch of our communion, wful and constitutional synods. (Applause.)

with

Major EGERTON LEIGH bore his personal testimony to the promising aspect of the Irish Protestant missions.

The Rev. Canon Stowell, Mr. Ward (Oxford), the Rev. Mr. M'Ilwaine, and Venerable Archdeacon Elphin also spoke.

WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 14th.

SECTIONAL MEETING.

THE VERY REV. THE DEAN OF MANCHESTER IN THE CHAIR.

A sectional meeting was held in the Assembly Room of the Free Trade Hall, on Wednesday afternoon, under. the presidency of the Dean of Manchester, to discuss the subjects of "Free and Open Churches," and "The Offertory."

The CHAIRMAN said it was no part of his duty to express any opinion on one side or the other on the subjects about to be discussed. He knew that there were differences of opinion upon both subjects held by gentlemen present as well as in other places. He requested that every one should be listened to with attention, and without interruption. His personal views upon the subjects remained to be influenced by the deliberations of that meeting, because he expected to hear a great variety of sentiments, and it was not until after he had heard those sentiments expressed that he should be able, entirely, to satisfy his own mind. He should now express nothing beyond this--that he did not believe the abolition of pew rents was practicable in all places. In the next place he would say, with reference to the offertory, that never was it any part of his theory, practice, or experience, that offertories should supersede endowments. (Applause.) With these few observations, he would call on the Rev. W. R. Wroth to read the first paper on "Free and Open Churches."

FREE AND OPEN CHURCHES.

By the REV. W. R. WROTH, B.A.

It is hardly possible to conceive a subject of more importance to the well-being of the Church of England than the one which I have been desired to bring before you. Our church architecture may be as grand as the genius of our architects can make it: the most perfect church music may echo in our temples: our clergy may be trained in all the knowledge which befits those who are ordained to so high and holy an office our laity may render their valuable co-operation: our small livings may be augmented so that the working clergy may be freed from the carking cares of poverty: the constitution of our convocation, our diocesan synods, and our ruri-decanal chapters may be placed on the soundest basis: our day-schools and Sunday schools may be admirably conducted: the organisation for the external management of our local parishes may be perfect: our devoted sisters and our parochial mission women may penetrate into the darkest back-rooms of our courts on their errands of mercy-but yet this machinery will in great degree be clogged and hindered-church

extension will be materially impeded, and the growth of the Church in Lancashire or elsewhere stunted-if we practically forget that "it is not agreeable to Christian profession to regard the rich and despise the poor brethren" in our churches. Now this has been done in a large number of our churches by what is called "The Pew System," by which I mean the allotment, whether by sale or otherwise, of pews or seats to privileged persons to the exclusion of others.

It is not difficult to trace the manner in which this pew system grew up. The sacrilegious spoliation of church property, and its transfer from ecclesiastical to lay hands, had impoverished the Church, and the consequence was that the population largely increased without corresponding provision being made for its spiritual wants. The evils of this disproportion between the population and the church accommodation were so strongly felt, and deemed to be fraught with such dangers to the common weal, that in the reign of Queen Anne an act was passed granting several duties upon coal for building fifty new churches in and about the cities of London and Westminster, and the suburbs thereof. Out of this proposed number of fifty, however, only eleven were built; and here the zeal for church building was stayed. The difficulties with which the State had to struggle, and the wars in which it was involved, turned the minds of the people away, and though the population was multiplying, nothing more was done. At length however, partly, as I will charitably suppose, with a view of meeting this gigantic evil, and still more, I fear, as a profitable mercantile speculation, proprietary chapels were established, where the seats were let out at a high rate, and where of course none but the rich could gain admission. In due time, in the year 1818, the government perceived that this state of things could never be allowed to continue without danger to the nation's peace. The facts that stared them in the face were appalling. The population of the nation had doubled since the last church building effort in the reign of Queen Anne, and masses of people were concentrated in the capital city and in the large commercial and manufacturing towns without any opportunities for the public worship of Almighty God. From the returns made at the time, it appeared that there were 27 parishes in which the excess of the inhabitants beyond the means of accommodation in the churches exceeded 20,000 in each. Of these 16 were in or about London, and 11 in great provinces and towns. In Liverpool, out of 94,376 inhabitants, 21,000 only could be accommodated in the churches, leaving a deficiency of 73,376. In Manchester, of 79,459, only 10,950, leaving 68,509; and in Marylebone, of 75,624, no more than 8,700, leaving 66,924 without the means of accommodation. Thus, in these three places there were nearly 210,000 inhabitants who could not obtain access to the churches. The population of London and its vicinity (exclusive of the city) was 1,129,451 souls, of whom the churches and chapels could only contain 151,536, leaving an excess of 977,915. These facts, as I said, were so appalling that allusion was made to the subject in the opening speech of the session on January 27, 1818" The Prince Regent has commanded us to direct your particular attention to the deficiency which has so long existed in the number of places of public worship belonging to the Established Church, when compared with the increased and increasing population of the country." But then came the difficulty. A grant of a million was proposed for building churches; but how were the clergy, who