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instance we must assert that anyone would admit that there are various degrees of ignorance and wisdom-must we not? THEO. So I take it.

Soc. That is, that the argument will be best maintained as we sketched it when we were advocating Protagoras' cause. Heat, dryness, sweetness, all such qualities in short, are as a rule such as they appear to each; but if in any case the theory will allow that one man differs from another, it would concede this, that with regard to things wholesome and unwholesome it is not every weak woman or child, or even beast, that is competent to cure itself from a knowledge of what is wholesome for it, but that here if anywhere there exists a difference between individuals— would it not?

THEO. I should fancy so.

Soc. And so with states: honour and dishonour, justice and injustice, piety and impiety, are, it is true, determined for each community by its particular institutions, and in these matters there are no varying degrees of wisdom either among states or individuals; but in deciding what is expedient for itself or inexpedient, in this if in anything it will as before be admitted that one statesman excels another, and the decision of one state that of another with regard to truth. And it will not venture to assert that whatever enactments a state makes, under the impression that they are expedient, must necessarily be so. But with regard to justice and injustice, piety and impiety, to which I just now referred, they persistently maintain that these have no absolute existence of their own, and that the truth is determined by the general decision at the time when it is formed, and lasts as long as that decision holds. And even those

who but partially uphold the doctrine of Protagoras entertain some such notion of philosophy. But one subject

leads to another, Theodorus, the less to the greater.

THEO. We have leisure, Socrates, have we not? Soc. It would appear so: and let me tell you, my friend, I have frequently remarked, and never more clearly than at the present time, how natural it is that men who have spent much time in philosophical studies should prove ridiculous orators when they enter the courts of law.

THEO. How do you make that out?

Soc. If we were to compare those who have been jostled about in law courts, and such like places, from their youth up, with such as have been educated in the pursuit of philosophy and the like, it is not improbable that the former will appear to have received the education of slaves, the latter that of freemen.

THEO. Tell me how so.

Soc. In this way. Philosophers always, as you said just now, have leisure and converse undisturbed and at their leisure. Just as we are now leaving our second subject of conversation and taking up a third, so they, if any subject occurs to them which pleases them better than the one in hand (as is the case with us) take it up and do not care one whit whether their words be many or few, so long only as they get at the truth. Lawyers on the con

trary are always hurried in their speech, for the water as it ebbs urges them forwards and they are not allowed to speak on such topics as they may wish, but their opponent stands at their side, armed with all the powers of the law, ever and anon referring to the prescribed course of proceedings -what they call the bill of indictment-and to these points

he must confine himself.

For

And their speech is always about some fellow slave, and is addressed to a master who sits in state with the case before him, and the trial is never concerning some abstract question, but always a personal one, nay, often 'tis a race for life. All these causes conspire to make them energetic and shrewd; they understand how to flatter their master with words and serve him by deeds, but their minds are narrow and corrupt. their growth has been stunted, their honesty and independence have been destroyed by the slavery in which they have lived from their childhood. By it they are compelled to be crooked in their actions, since it throws their yet tender souls in the way of great risks and terrors; and they being unable to bear up against them with justice and truth, straightway betaking themselves to falsehood and mutual retaliation, are so terribly deformed and stunted, that they pass from youth to manhood without having any thoughts that are wholesome; but have become clever and wise in their own conceit. Such, Theodorus, is the character of these men. With regard to those who form our own band, would you rather that we should leave them alone, or that we should first discuss them and then return to our argument, that we may not abuse that liberty of digression of which we spoke just now?

THEO. Nay, Socrates, let us discuss them; for you were quite right when you said it was not we, the members of this band who were the slaves of our subjects, but that they were our slaves, as it were, and that each of them awaits our good pleasure for its completion; for we have no judge or spectator standing by to criticize or control us, as poets have.

Soc.

Since you are so disposed, then, let us speak-as

:

it seems but right we should-of the leaders for why should we make any mention of mere dabblers in philosophy? well, these men from their earliest childhood are utterly ignorant of the way into the market place, or the where-abouts of either law courts or council-chamber, or any other common place of assembly in the city. Laws and decrees, whether proposed or passed, they neither see nor hear of, and as for the rivalries of clubs in elections, feasts, and revels with minstrelsy of women, why they never think of such things even in their dreams. And whether anyone in the city is of high or low descent, or what blot there may be in his pedigree in the male or female line, he knows no more than he does how many gallons there are in the sea, as the saying is. And he is not even aware that he is ignorant of all this, for it is not from self-conceit that he keeps aloof from it, but in reality it is his body alone that dwells in the city and inhabits his home, whilst his mind, from a conviction that all these things are worthless and of no account, holds them in contempt and is borne in every direction, as Pindar has it, and scans the things beneath the earth, and the things upon her surface, and gazes at the stars above the heavens, and thoroughly searches out the nature of everything existing therein in its entirety, but stoops not to anything that is near at hand.

THEO. What do you mean by that, Socrates?

Soc. As Thales was once gazing at the stars and looking up into the sky, he fell into a well, and was made fun of by a saucy pretty Thracian maid for being so anxious to know what was going on in heaven, when he did not heed what was before his eyes and at his feet-well every philosopher is liable to be made fun of in this same way: for in point of fact men of this description do not know what their next

But

door neighbour is doing, nay more, they hardly know whether he is a man or some other sort of animal. what Man really is, and what properties active or passive are peculiar to a nature such as his,-this he enquires into and earnestly investigates. You follow me do you not, Theodorus?

THEO. Aye, what you say is perfectly true.

Soc. Well, my friend, when such a man as this has any dealings with another man, whether in private or public as I said when we began, as often as he is forced to argue in a law court or any other place about the things that are at his feet and before his eyes, he affords laughter, not only to Thracian girls, but also to everyone else as well-falling as he does into pitfalls and every kind of embarrasment by reason of his inexperience—and his awkwardness is marvellous and makes him look no better than a fool. For when he is reviled he is unable to make a personal retort, for he knows no harm against a single soul, inasmuch as he has never paid attention to such things, and so his embarrassment makes him appear ludicrous. And as he laughs openly and honestly without any affectation, when he hears others boasting and uttering panegyrics on their neighbours, he gives people the impression that he is a fool. For when he hears an encomium passed on a tyrant, or king, he thinks that he hears some herdsman or other—it may be a swineherd, or shepherd, or neat-herd-called a lucky fellow for getting a good deal of milk and in his opinion they tend and milk an animal that is a good deal harder to please and more treacherous than any that the herdsman does. And he considers that, by reason of their want of leisure, they must of necessity be no less boorish and uneducated than the herdsman is; surrounded as they

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