manently Protestant. If the number of the Catholics were few, there might be less danger in allowing their admissibility to the offices alluded to; but their number was so considerable, that if they were admissible not only to the judicial bench, but to the counsels of the sovereign, great danger might arise to the security of the Protestant succession. There was, he was willing to admit, no danger of that church being altered or affected while parliament remained as it was; nay, he would, in justice to the Catholics themselves, believe that even if a number of them were introduced into parliament, they would not, in the face of day, make an attempt of that kind; but what he feared was, that this point would be laid hold of by demagogues and agitators to disturb the peace of the church; and that the measure, instead of uniting and knitting together the members of the two religions, would lead to constant bickerings and warfare. If he conceived that these concessions could be made with safety, he would readily concur with the promoters of the measure; but he was afraid that that was quite a vain hope, and that religious opinions, which formed the most powerful of all human incentives would be made a sort of rallying point for political contests,

Lord Castlereagh said, that whatever parliament might now grant, he would, as far as his power extended, endeavour to carry into effect; and he would use his best efforts to induce the Catholics to receive with gratitude, the boon which it might please the legislature to bestow. If parliament thought fit, it was doubt less in its power to surround the measure with various qualifications; but if those qualifications had the tendency to keep alive a Catholic question in the country, and to destroy that conciliatory temper which now prevailed, he should be betraying the interests of the cause he professed to advocate, if he were to give up the ground he had previously taken, and adopt a proceeding which must have the effect of protracting this long-agitated question. The two great principles on which his learned friend had argued the subject were; first, the question of safety with reference to the Protestant church, and, next, the number of Catholics who, under this measure, would get into power, Every one would go along with his learned friend in admitting that one of the fundamental foundations

on which the union stood was the insepa→ rable establishment of the Protestant church of the two kingdoms. It was true that external force might overthrow the system; but he could not conceive that granting political power to a few Roman Catholics was at all likely to hasten the application of external force. But he denied that, under the act of Union the Protestant church of Ireland could be at all modified. No man could suppose that any of the covenants of that union could be made the subject of legislation. It was a question which, as far as parliament was concerned, was placed beyond the reach of legislation. But his learned friend would here allow him to put this distinction that it was one thing to establish a religion, and another to protect it by that qualified degree of endowment which parliament had, in other instances sanctioned. Thus, the Catholic clergy of Scotland were at this moment in the possession of that description of provision which was the only provision he had ever heard suggested for the consideration of that House, with reference to the Irish Roman Catholic clergy. His learned friend must certainly know that in Ireland, also, a state provision was granted to a body connected with the church of Scotlandhe meant the Presbyterian synod of Ulster. He would not say under what circumstances that provision had been granted; but he would contend that in its practical results no measure was ever more beneficial. The Protestant church of Ireland was, by a solemn covenant between the two parliaments, placed beyond the reach of becoming an object of legislation in that House. He did not know that the omnipotence of parliament could not repeal the Union; and having separated the two legislatures, that of Ireland might proceed to re-model its church. But that the united parliament could interfere with the united Protestant church he wholly denied; since it was directly contrary to the act of union. With respect to the qualification which his right hon. friend proposed, he would now offer a few observations to the House. He agreed with his right hon. friend, that the right to exercise the principle of exclusion, where the safety of the state required it, was inherent in all governments. The truth of that position could not be shaken, without affecting the monarchy of England. But he must also observe, that the admissibi❤

lity to certain offices was a question of policy and prudence. His learned friend had argued this part of the subject as if by some strange principle of magic, the government was to become wholly Catholic. His learned friend had forgotten those securities which necessarily arose from the Protestant population and wealth of the realm; and he argued that the administration of the country would be, to a great extent, Catholic-that Catholic authority would surround the Crown; and that the state would be shaken to its foundation. Now, for his part, he saw nothing in Catholic power, even if it were extensive, that should cause any apprehension of danger. They found amongst the Roman Catholics of England men of high rank, of large fortune and of extensive influence; but to contend that there was any portion of them who, if they procured political power, would exert it for the dangerous purposes that had been alluded to, was a position unworthy to be argued. At one time it had been stated that the number of the Catholics in that country, as compared with the Protestants was as four to one; and that the Protestants of the church of England formed only one eighth of the whole population. But Dr. Duigenan, who had received correct information on the subject, denied the fact. He said that, instead of 6 persons to each House, there was not more than 5 or 54, giving a total of 3,500,000, of which not more than 2,000,000 were Catholics. With respect to property 49 out of 50 parts of the landed property belonged to Protestants, and 9-10ths of the personal property."-When such was the state of Catholic numbers and property in Ireland it was not likely that many Catholics would be returned from that country; especially when it was recollected that the Catholic freeholders were comparatively few. He had made some inquiries into the state of Catholic property in Ireland and he found that there were not above 14 or 15 places where the Catholic interest could make itself extensively felt, and, he believed, conscientiously, if they passed the bill to-morrow, that not more than 5 or 6 Catholics would be returned. He did not think, indeed, that Roman Catholics would find their way into that House to the extent which he thought would be beneficial to the state and to the Protestant establishment. For his learned friend would

agree with him, that if the Catholics maintained mischievous prejudices, that House was the place in which they were most likely to be eradicated. The noble lord then proceeded to argue against the proposed qualifications. He knew there were some offices in which it would not be proper to place Roman Catholics; but the question was, whether it would not be best to leave the selection to the sovereign? He maintained that it would and contended that there was little fear that a Protestant king would select a Catholic administration. At the same time he did not see that a Catholic minister in the cabinet could overturn the constitution. But his right hon. friend would say " If so few Catholics can become privy councillors, is it not as well to exclude them at once?" He thought not; because it was keeping up one of those bars which the Catholics complained of for the purpose of securing a very inadequate object. With respect to Roman Catholics becoming judges, in all probability it would only be in cases where the individual had raised himself to the summit of his profession by his talents and assiduity; and such a man, he contended, having the eyes of the whole country on him, would be induced, more than any other individual, to conduct himself in an exemplary manner. were his sentiments. Should the House differ from him in opinion, he hoped that the Catholics would frankly accept such advantages as their Protestant brethren were willing to accord to them.

Such

Mr. Wetherell argued, that the promoters of the bill, having acknowledged the ineligibility of Catholics to judicial situa tions, connected with ecclesiastical func tions, would be guilty of inconsistency, if they did not follow up their principle by excluding them also from offices of temporal judicature, on the ground that the temporal courts took cognizance of many matters of an ecclesiastical nature. Besides, there were duties which the temporal judges had to perform, that a Catholic could not discharge. He could not, for instance, sit in the court of Delegates, upon appeals in spiritual matters, nor could he act as a coadjutor in the ecclesi astical courts. The supporters of the bill were also guilty of an absurdity in allow. ing Catholics to be eligible to the situa tions of privy councillors, and yet making it a misdemeanor in them to advise the sovereign upon matters of ecclesiastical

interest. This was an impracticable prohibition. The advice of the privy councillor to his sovereign was secret and confidential; and therefore the prohibition of giving advice on ecclesiastical matters, which advice could never be known, was a mere nullity. The safest and most consistent way, therefore, was to exclude Catholics from this office altogether; and to remove the necessity for so absurd an exception, by a practicable general rule.

first place, Catholic peers could advise his majesty as hereditary councillors of the Crown in the House of Lords, and Catholic commoners could advise the king, as members of the House of Commons; but then they were not to be allowed to aspire to the higher and more sacred functions of privy councillors. If parliament acknowledged this, it would be equivalent to declaring that it was not the great and paramount council of the nation; but that there was another council, higher and of a more important character than itself. Again, the members of that House had hitherto been looked upon as equal; but, if this principle was admitted, then there would be recognized within those walls a race of inferior and outcast members, divided from all others by an impassable line of separation; and the House would consist of a privileged majority and a degraded minority. In the third place, it was always understood, that the Crown chose its ministers from among those men who, by their abilities, had risen to eminence in the councils of the nation; but if this principle was admitted, then there might be persons in that House, who, by their talents, intelligence, or civil virtues, might rise to the highest eminence, and yet be for ever precluded from being chosen as the responsible advisers of the Crown. The danger to the republican principles of our constitution had been already stated; but he would ask, was there no danger to be apprehended to the monarchy itself, from driving to despair a body of people, whose active abilities would not be allowed to be devoted to the service of the sovereign? The very same principle which gave secu rity to the rights of the people, would give stability to the prerogatives of the throne. There ought not to be, therefore, in that House a body of men, whom the Crown had no hold of, like others who aspired to public offices. As to himself, he was likely to spend the remainder of his life in Opposition, and if he could look only to the interests of party, he might not regret that such a principle should be acted upon, because it would give to the ranks of Opposition a set of men who must be irreconcileable enemies to the ministers of the Crown-men of blasted hopes and acrimonious temper. But he would rather see men choose Opposition from principle, than be driven into it by the exasperation of hopeless exclusion. The hon. and learned member then proceeded to answer

Sir James Mackintosh agreed with the right hon. mover, that anomalies were not objections in the formation of a scheme of religious government. Upon such a subject it was almost impossible to reduce legislation to a symmetrical form. He took the present question to be altogether a question of compromise, of degree, of the arrangement of opposing feelings and inconveniences-a question upon which it became impossible to follow any one principle to its utmost logical consequence. The learned member had laid great stress upon the difficulty of enforcing the provision against advice to the sovereign from Catholic privy councillors in matters of ecclesiastical interest. The learned member asked, how was the giver of such advice to be detected. The question reminded him of a brief dialogue between the republic of Venice and the see of Rome. The republic of Venice once asked-where was the original deed of conveyance by which the keys of Heaven was vested in the disposal of the Pope? To which his holiness replied, that it was upon the back of that instrument which gave the Adriatic sea to the dominion of the doge. Now, he would tell the learned gentleman how the advice which the Catholic privy councillor gave to his sovereign might be known, if he would only inform him how the advice which any other privy councillor gave was to be ascertained. It was stated, that the country had once undergone great dangers, from having a king who listened to Catholic advisers; but it should be recollected, that there was then no exclusion of a Catholic king; and yet the country had proved too strong both for king and ministers, when they entertained designs subversive of the religion of the state, and the liberties of the people. But what would be the consequence of admitting Catholics to seats in parliament, and yet excluding them from the situation of privy councillors? Why, to introduce new principles into parliament. In the

the argument, that judicial characters of the Catholic church, not being capable of partaking of the communion of the church of England, could not be present at the observance of those decent ceremonies which usually preceded the exercise of their judicial functions. He observed, that although they could not partake of the communion of the church of England, there was nothing to prevent them being present at the celebration of its worship, any more than in the case of NonConformists, several of whom had been judges, and he instanced sir M. Foster. He then went on to remark upon the great effect which the opening of judicial situations to Catholics would have upon the body of the Catholic community, in conciliating their affection to the laws and institutions of this country, more especially in Ireland. He considered this as a privilege that would have more extensive consequences in this way, than even the concession of seats in parliament, because few could aspire to the latter, but all who reared up their sons to the bar, would have expectations of their rising to the most honourable station in their profession. The example, too, of a Catholic in Ireland, raised to the distinguished and venerable situation of a judge, would have more practical influence in making that people understand and value the equal blessings of the British constitution, than the most eloquent statements of general principles; and as to any bias operating upon the mind of a Catholic judge where ecclesiastical interests were concerned, he did not believe there was any ground for the assertion. He had himself, when holding a judicial situation in India, frequently to decide questions which involved different ecclesiastical interests, and opposing religions, and he never felt his mind swerved for a moment from the strictest impartiality. He claimed no farther credit on this account, than for the possession of common sense; and he could not think so meanly of the Catholic lawyers, as to suppose they would sacrifice the dignity of the bench, the honour of their profession, and the virtues and character which alone could raise them to that exalted station, on account of bigotted notions, and doctrinal predilections.

The committee divided: For the Amendment, 169; Against it, 188: Majority 19. Mr. Goulburn then rose to propose an amendment, which he flattered himself would meet with the general concurrence

of the committee. The object of it was, to exclude Roman Catholics from being governors of colonies. To those who objected to the admission of Roman Catholics to any office, it was not necessary to adduce any argument, as it was impossible to anticipate opposition to this particular exclusion, and indeed the grounds upon which it rested were founded on principles so precisely similar to those on which the promoters of the bill had acted in the exclusions proposed by themselves, that it would have been equally impossible for him (but for what had fallen from the noble secretary of state) to have expected any opposition from them.-It appeared to him, that little more was necessary than to state the duties which devolved on governors of colonies, and which could not be withdrawn from them in order to prove that they ought not to be Roman Catholics. The House then should be aware, that governors held the office of ordinary, and holding that office, exercised within their governments episcopal functions; that they had in that capacity a control over all the clergy; the presentation to all vacant benefices; the regulation of all that relates to the repairs of the churches and to the general discipline and good order of the establishment. His noble friend had indeed stated, that it would be

great benefit to the colonies to divest the governors of their present right of presentation to livings, and to vest them in the government at home. He must beg leave to differ even on this point from his noble friend. It did not appear to him a trifling inconvenience to leave the presentation to a living in a distant colony, dependant on an authority with which no communication could be had in less than four or five months, and perhaps more, after the vacancy had occurred; and that too in climates which, from their unhealthiness rendered vacancies much more frequent than in more favoured countries. But when it was farther considered that the governor's authority was not limited to the mere presentation, that it comprised every possible regulation as to the dis cipline and good order of the church, and as to the proper conduct of the clergy in their respective situations, he would ask whether it was possible, consistent with any regard to the established church in those colonies, to leave all these matters to the precarious regulation of a distant authority.-The mover of the bill had thought it necessary to make some excep