clined to refer to facts to ascertain how himself for the burthens under which he far that position was made out. He could laboured, and, in order to do so, availed not state his views of the subject better himself of the speculations into which the than by showing the effect which the fall farmer, who was his tenant, was perpetuof prices had produced upon the different ally running. Many of these speculations classes of the community. These classes had since plunged those who had made were of three kinds: first, those who ob- them into great difficulties. These diffitained their subsistence by their daily la- culties had then recoiled upon the landbour; second, those who lived upon accu- owner, and had brought him to that mulated and dormant capital; third, those House for redress. But the House would who by their industry and intelligence in be deceiving itself, if it thought that it the use of their capital gave employment was in the power of any human legislation to those who composed the first class. to change the course of events like these, Now, he apprehended, that though consiwhich arose from unalterable causes. derable distress might exist in some parts The difficulties of the land-owner, arising of the country, from want of employment, from this source, were, however, aggrathe fall of prices, occasioned by the late vated by others, in which the course of improvement of the currency, had consi- events had also placed him. He had fixderably benefitted those who were in the ed upon his estates, jointures, mortgages, first class. The condition of the second rent-charges, &c. which he found himself class was also ameliorated. That class unable to discharge. This led to a consisted of the public creditor, of annui- struggle about rent, between him and his tants, and of persons whose income was tenant, and thus increased the evil condiderived from monies placed out at inter- tion of both. It was, however, maintainest. The persons of whom this class was ed by some, that all this distress was the composed, had been taunted as the idle effect of taxation alone. He maintained part of the community. He would call that it was not, and would give a practithem persons, who, after a life of slow cal illustration of the correctness of his gains and patient industry, had confided position. No gentleman would say that their earnings to the care of the public the pressure of those difficulties which at honour; and he trusted that to a British present almost overwhelmed America was parliament it was not necessary to make the effect of taxation. The poor-rates any appeal in their behalf. During the bore with great weight upon this country: war, a depreciation of 25 per cent had but that could not be considered as one of taken place in the value of money: under the causes of the distress which prevailed that depreciation these individuals had in America; where a still greater fall of suffered; and it was not too much to allow prices had taken place than had taken them to enjoy in quiet the alteration of place in England. He regretted the state circumstances which had since occurred. to which that country was reduced, both If the depreciation of money during the on the score of common humanity, and war had not equally affected the landlord, because our own prosperity was connectit was only fitting that it should so affected with that of others. The same causes him now. But the truth was, that the that produced this unequalled distress there, land-owner had benefitted greatly by that had operated here; but he thanked God depreciation: he had raised the rent of his in a less degree; but still the effect was land in consequence of it, and he must so severely felt, as to make people too now lower it in consequence of the fall of gloomy and despondent about the result. prices. The third class included mer-But if the country maintained public faith chants, ship-owners, farmers, and those who gave employment to capital; and on them the change in the currency had operated severely. It was, however, to be recollected that this was the class which had received so much benefit from the diminution in the value of money. They were, he believed, in a state of consider able distress; but that distress had been chiefly created by the facility with which they had obtained money during the war. The land-owner wished to compensate with its creditors; if it was true to the principles upon which, up to the present period, it had always acted; if it disentangled itself from those branches of trade which, instead of promoting, impeded its interests; if it avoided those infamous expedients to which other nations had thought it requisite to resort, it would come out of the distress in which it was involved with unimpeached honour, and with a character rendered more brilliant by the very dangers to which it had been Mr. Wilberforce said, he was anxious to see the public burthens alleviated as much as possible; but at the same time he was persuaded of the necessity of keeping faith with the public creditor. He would not aggravate, unnecessarily, the burthens of the country; for he was convinced that the best strength of a government was the good will and hearts of the people [Here the hon. gentleman proceeded for several minutes, in the midst of loud cries of "Question!"]. He complained of this interruption, and said, that gentlemen who came down late, should have some consideration, if not for those who sat there patiently all night, at least for the nature of the question itself. It was not one to be disposed of in a cursory and summary way; it was not one they ought to proceed with "pedibus ire in sententiam." He hoped the subject would be temperately discussed. He should support the motion. Mr. Monck said, that the right hon. gentleman had asked, what difference there was in this question now and at a former period to which he had alluded. He would tell him-the difference would be found in the reduced state of the country. In proportion as the rent-roll of the country declined, in the same proportion ought the taxation which bore upon it. The right hon. gentleman had said, why complain now, seeing that the duty was much higher during the war? Because the prices which were then high were now low. He had talked of America; but he should recollect that there the salaries of men in office, and also the standing army, had been reduced one-half. There were two modes of relieving the agricultural interests; one by high duties and bounties-to that mode he objected; for to benefit one class, it must fall upon another. The only real good could be effected by economy and retrenchment; and the only way to induce ministers to resort to that was, by a removal of a part of the taxation, by which a system of ex travagance was upheld. Mr. Littleton thought that taxation should be more generally distributed; and that this tax, therefore, was not the one which ought to be continued. Lord Castlereagh said, he could not help complaining that the notions of his hon. friend (Mr. Wilberforce), which were, he knew, those of benevolence, ap peared rather contracted with reference to a principle of humanity; for his hon. friend should recollect, that the best mode of securing the satisfaction of the country was, to uphold the public credit which was so essential to its prosperity. The noble lord then complained that the present time should be fixed upon for withdrawing this tax. Would the House tolerate such an attempt, when the country was in a course of restoring its currency? The House had pledged the government to that course, and could not now, when the manufacturing distresses were not so great as they were some time back, call upon them to reduce its revenue two millions, without knowing whether they could reckon upon the same state of the revenue in the ensuing year. Mr. K. Douglas thought that if the present scale of taxation was necessary, a more general tax than this could not be selected. The previous question being put, the House divided: Ayes 149, Noes 125. Mr. Western's motion was sequently agreed to, and a bill ordered to be brought in. List of the Majority. Allen, J. H. Bennet, hon. H. G. Creevey, Thos. Calvert, N. con Fergusson, sir R. C. Fitzroy, lord C. Gordon, hon. W. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Thursday, March 22. RECEIVERS-GENERAL OF LAND AND ASSESSED TAXES-DISTRIBUTORS OF STAMPS.] Mr. Hume said, he should confine his motion at present to the offices of Receivers-general and Distributors of Stamps, in order to avoid the imputation of proposing sweeping reductions. In proposing the abolition of those offices his object was,-1. To establish economy in the collection of the revenue; and, 2. To reduce the patronage and influence which produced so many baneful effects to this country. The two offices referred to were in the patronage of that House, and they were given in the several counties by the members of the counties to which they belonged. If the House should agree with him in reducing those offices, the saving and the diminution of influence would be considerable. There were 65 receivers-general in England and Wales, and one in Scotland. There were 95 distributors of stamps in Great Britain. The receivers-general in England and Wales were paid last year 41,415. and 41,9844. as the poundage on their receipts. The great majority of the offices were filled by deputies; 34 being entirely performed by deputies; 10 jointly by principals and deputies; and 22 in person by the principals. It was strange, too, that those who received the largest amount pérformed the duties of their offices by depu ties. In three reports on sinecures it had been admitted as a principle, that where the office was performed by deputy, there was prima facie evidence that the principal could be dispensed with. In Ireland there was no receiver-general. Why, then, should so much of the public money be expended on sinecure offices in England? The objection made to the reduction of the salaries of these offices was, the great security required from those who held them. Now, he could inform the government, that there were many individuals who would give them as good security as was now given for the proper payment of those taxes into the Exchequer, and who would collect them without taking the poundage which was at present taken upon them. Indeed, there was in London one receiver-general, who colJected them without deriving any emoluments from the poundage upon them. The gentleman's name was Everett; and all that he received from the public, was 7717. a year, which was the amount of expense incurred by his predecessor in the arrangement of his office, and which the government had insisted upon his taking, in consequence of his patriotic conduct in giving up the poundage. He mentioned it also for another reason, namely, to show that there were other profits connected with the office. Up to 1783, large sums of money had been allowed to remain in the hands of the col. lectors, and great losses had consequently been sustained by the public. In that year an order was made, that the balancès should never exceed 6,500l. That order was so far from protecting the public from injury, that the losses in the collection of the land and assessed taxes were greater than those sustained in any other branch of the public revenue. From a return, it appeared that on the 5th Jan. 1820, the lowest balance of cash in the hands of the receivers-general was 367,574. Besides the interest upon this sum, they received a poundage upon the whole sum collected. The poundage was the same now as it was 50 years ago; and if it was deemed a sufficient remuneration when the taxes were smaller in amount, but the difficulties of transmitting them to London greater than they were at present, surely it was more than sufficient, now that the amount of the taxes was so much increased and the difficulties of remitting them so much diminished, that any banker in the country would remit them to town without making any charge for so doing, and be glad to do so, on account of the benefit which he would derive from the mere transition of the public money through his hands. It was true, that great securities were required by government for the faithful discharge of the duties of the office of receiver-general. He had no wish to risk a farthing of the public money; but he could not help considering the securities for the office at present required as extravagant. There were individuals now living who, having been security for persons who had settled their accounts as receivers-general, were told, at the time, that there was not any thing, or a very small sum owing from those persons to the public, but who, ten, twelve, or fifteen years afterwards, had charges brought against them of 10,000/. 20,000l. and even 100,000l. If it were good for the public that the demanding enormous securities should continue, he would be the last to reprobate it; but it was as bad as bad could be. Since the year 1790, there had been ten receivers-general who had died or left office, and whose arrears amounted to 304,337. On the first of January 1820, 117,1157. was owing to the public. What he wished especially to impress upon the House was, that the large balances which were left in the hands of the receivers-general, was ⚫ an encouragement to peculation, and the cause of much loss. In the finance accounts it appeared, that although 6,500l. ought to be the maximum of the balances left in the hands of the receivers-general, many of the balances were of much larger amount; that in the hands of Mr. Eyton, the late receiver-general of Salop, being | 89,180., and that in the hands of Mr. Shaw, the late receiver-general of Surrey, 71,8611. Mr. Shaw died in 1805, leaving a certain balance against him. The commissioners of taxes made a demand in consequence on his securities, who paid 30,0002. The commissioners then declared that the remaining balance due did not exceed 3,000l. or 4,000l. After five years had elapsed, however, the commissioners again came forward, on information which they had received in the interim, and demanded 40,000l. over and above the sum which had been already paid by Mr. Shaw's securities, of whom sir G. Noel was one, and Mr. L'Estrange another. This instance alone would be sufficient to show the extent of the existing mischief. But there was a more recent case, the circumstances of which shocked every man who had become acquainted with them. Mr. Eyton, the receiver-general for Salop, died in 1816. Mr. Eyton's accounts having been examined before sir J. K. Powell, and sir J. Hill became securities for him, they were told that the balance against him was only a few thousand pounds. On that assurance those gentlemen became his securities. After Mr. Eyton's death, however, the commissioners discovered that an enormous balance was owing from him to the public, no less than 20 years ago. In consequence of that being discovered, they called on his securities within twelvemonth to appear and plead to the charge of no less a sum than 100,000%. They went into court, and there they proved that the money received from the land-tax had been paid regularly into the exchequer during the time that they had been his securities. The learned judge, however, who presided at the trial, informed the jury, that as money bore no mark by which it could be determined on what account it was paid, they must decide that it had been paid on the general account between the commissioners and Mr. Eyton; and the jury had found a verdict for the whole debt. If government had acted in this case, as it had usually acted in similar cases, it would have issued an execution against their property; but execution had been very properly stayed, and he trusted that no attempt would be made to revive it. It was, however, invidious to place government in such a situation as required it to show indulgence to one party, at the same time that it pressed the strict execution of the law upon another. In the post-office, the customs, &c., not one-half of the losses had been sustained in all these departments combined, that had been sustained in the land and assessed taxes alone. In the excise, the total debt on the outstanding balances was not equal to one-half of that upon the land-tax. He, therefore, maintained that the House was bound to abolish these appointments, if it had any wish to study economy. There was, however, another point, which he wished to press upon the House. In the excise, the balances were paid into the exchequer eight times a year, whilst the receivers-general of the landtax only paid in their balances four times a year. If the same plan were adopted as to the land-tax that was adopted as to the excise, a great saving might be created to the public in the interest of the money which at present went into the pockets of the receivers-general. Nor could they justly complain of the adoption of that plan; for, exclusive of 2d. in the pound, which they received upon the land-tax, and 14d. in the pound upon the assessed taxes, they received 3d. in the pound for collecting it, and paid only 1d. in the pound to their district clerks, who saved them all the trouble. Their profits would therefore well admit of reduction; or, if they thought that they would not, they had only to abandon their offices, and he would find others who would perform the duties of them, at a much lower rate, finding exactly as good securities. The nature of those securities was not, how.. ever entirely free from complaint; as they were not at all proportionable to the amounts received, but varied upon rules, of which he could not discover the principles. If it were necessary to keep up the offices, he would advise that the government should dispose of them by competition, and should encourage individuals to make tenders for them. He should now proceed to that part of his motion which referred to the Distributors of Stamps. There were 68 distributors of stamps in England and Wales, who, in 1819, received allowances or poundage amounting to 72,650l., in 1820, to 73,7611., and on the 5th Jan. 1821, there was a balance of 103,000l. in their hands due to the public. This was the lowest balance that they ever had; for it was the money they retained at the end of a quarter, when they were expected to pay it into the exchequer in the middle of a quarter they frequently had in their possession three or four hundred. thousand pounds of the public money. He found that from 1694 up to 1758, they had been allowed a poundage of 5 per cent. In 1758, the rate of poundage' was raised from 5 to 6 per cent. It remained at 6 per cent, till 1764, in which year it› was again reduced to 5 per cent. Since that time, in consequence of the recommendation of a committee, of which the late Speaker had been chairman, it had been reduced to 4 per cent. in all parts of England, except Bristol, where it was only 34 per cent. Now, the House would find, that each of the distributors of stamps received, upon an average, a salary of 1,068. a year, independently of the interest of the public money in his hands, which generally amounted, every year, to several hundreds more. The question' which he had, therefore, to submit to the House was whether this sum was or was not too great a remuneration for their services. In order to bring under its notice the abuses of this system, he would beg their attention to the large sums which some of these distributors received. Mr. J. H. Cole, the distributor for Norfolk, had, for the last 19 years, received, upon an average 3,8217. a-year. Mr. Gray, of York, 5,8814. 4s; Mr. Gresley, of Warwick, 2,600; and in Lancashire, where there were two distri-' butors, the average sum which one of them, Mr. Staniforth, had received at Liverpool in the last four years, was: 4,3281., and that of the other of them, Mr. Myers, was 3,445l. Now, he understood, from the best authority, that if government would allow men of respectability at Liverpool to become the distributors of stamps there, upon giving the same security as was now required, there were gentlemen in that town who would perform all the duties which those two gentlemen performed for 800/. each. He might be told that would only produce a saving of 3,0811. for each individual, and that that was only a trifling saving; to which he would answer, that it was only by reductions in items like these that the gross expenditure of the country could be diminished. He would now call the attention of the House to what was the case in Scotland. At Aberdeen an individual received 1,500l. a year for the distribution of stamps. When he was last at that town, he was informed that many persons, who could give security for 50,000l., would be |