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For the troops in Ireland, L.749,937: sent condition, was able to bear, and For the pay, &c. of staff-officers, what was due to public liberty. This L. 118,021 : For the pay of general was of all others the season when the andstaff officers for Ireland, L.34,784: house was bound to institute the Charge of medicines and surgical most minute investigation, and to be materials, hospital contingencies, &c. perfectly convinced before it voted for Great Britain, L. 29,035 : For the ihe enormous sums demanded. The Royal Military College, L. 25,173: deficiency, on comparing the inPay of general officers, L. 175,641 : come and the expenditure was Garrisons at home and abroad, for L. 14,000,000 ; but even adding the Great Britain, L. 27,380; for Ire- sinking fund of L. 16,000,000, the land, L. 6,178 : For retired officers balance in favour of the income, in in Great Britain and Ireland, the fifth year of peace, was only L. 127,437: For half-pay and military L.1,900,000. At a time when uniallowances to reduced officers on the versal peace reigned abroad, and establishment of the two countries, there was no symptom of disturbance L. 770,161 : For half-pay and redu- at home, it was most unreasonable ced allowances to officers of disband. that 29,000 men should be voted for ed foreign corps, pensions to wound. Great Britain ; but for Ireland the ed foreign officers, &c., L. 129,750 : proportion was extravagant. If the For in.pensioners of Chelsea hospi. Government was unpopular, if it did tal, L. 58,531: For out-pensioners not pursue measures calculated to of the same, L.1,173,618: For the secure the good will of the inhabi. Royal Military Asylum at Chelsea, tants, it might be politic to keep up L.36,482 : Pensions to the widows there an army of 20,000 men : but of officers, &c., L.104,122: And for why had not some endeavours been allowances on the compassionate used to render the civil power more list, L. 168,532. The several other effective ? or, if a military force was heads of the army.supply were pro- necessary, why were not the 40,000 posed and agreed to.

yeomanry in the country called upon On the motion of Lord Castle- to act ? He wished to hear from the reagh, the report of the Committee Noble Lord, or any of his collea. of Supply was on the 10th of May gues, why a separate Secretary at brought up by Mr Goulburn; and War, with a high salary, a house in the question having been put on the the Castle, and another in Phenix first resolution,

Park; a distinct accountant's office, Sir H. Parnell rose and said, that with all the charges of the establishit was more particularly necessary to ment; and a board of general offiattend closely to the Army Estimates cers in Ireland, who, if they did not now offered to the house, because receive pay, inevitably occasioned they were avowedly brought forward expence, were kept for Ireland. as the estimates for the peace esta

Colonel Davies argued, that the blishment. He insisted that the establishment which Ministers proNoble Lord (Palmerston) had made posed to keep up during peace was out no case to justify so large a force without a precedent in our history. as 29,000 men for Great Britain, His object in rising was to show, 20,000 for Ireland, and 30,000 for granting the necessity of the whole the colonies : in making this propo- amount of troops, that a saving of sal he had alike overlooked the ex. L.120,000 per annum might still be pence which the country, in its pre- effected. During the last autumn,

it was reported in military circles would be added to the effective force tbat Ministers intended to reduce of the army. In the whole, therethree regiments of cavalry and fif- fore, the people might be less severeteen battalions of infantry; the ef- ly taxed to the extent of L.120,000, fect of which would be, as he would even supposing that it was fit to keep prove, to save L. 30,000 in the ca. up the number of rank and file Mi. valry, and L.90,000 in the infantry. nisters were anxious to preserve. It Exclusive of the household troops, might be said in answer, that there there were twenty five regiments of would not remain a sufficient num. cavalry, of four of which, being in ber of officers to maintain the disci. India and paid by the East India pline of the troops ; but would it be Company, he should say nothing: seriously argued, that a captain, a the rest were in Great Britain, Ire. lieutenant, two cornets, a sergeantland, and the colonies, and amount major, and three sergeants, were not ed to a force of 7,820 men. The enough in the cavalry to keep up the saving would be effected in this way: discipline of a few more rank and file If the three regiments were reduced, added to the forty-six men they at and the men added to the rank and present had under their orders? It file of the rest, while the officers might next be urged, that if the rewere put upon half-pay, the burden duction he wished were effected, upon the nation would be diminished there would not be left an adequate by the difference between the full. foundation for the erection of a mipay and the half-pay of the commis- litary superstructure in case of a sudsioned officers, while the non-com- den breaking out of war; but he missioned officers would be wholly really thought that this was anticidone away with. This would lessen pating an objection so futile, that it the expence L. 30,000, while, in would not be used on the other side. truth, the effective force would be in- Comparing the peace establishment creased by the number of officers' of 1787, five years after the close of servants that would be relieved from the American war, with the present their employment, and whose servi. estimates, the disproportion was ces would be rendered generally a. striking: At that time there were onvailable. The same arguments and ly six regiments of cavalry, and sixprinciples applied to the infantry. ty-three and a half battalions of inBesides seven battalions of Guards, fantry, amounting to 35,818 men, there were ninety-nine battalions of and the expence was calculated at no the line. Of these, fifteen were in more than L.1,039,800. He thought India, and might therefore be ex. that establishment altogether reflect. cluded from the question ; but there ed the highest credit upon the illusremained eighty-four battalions for trious person who projected it. He Great Britain, Ireland, and the colo- concluded by moving as an amendnies, or 54,600 rank and file. If fifteen ment, that the sum of L. 1,138,766, of these battalions were reduced, as 118. 2d. be granted to his Majesty in had been reported, the men might be lieu of the sum of L.2,259,766 : 11:2 drafted into the different battalions in the original estimate. remaining, while a saving of pay, al- The Speaker having put the queslowances, &c. to colonels, captains, tion, Lord Palmerston observed, that and inferior officers, would be effect- he hoped the house would give creed to the amount of L. 90,000. By dit to his Majesty's Ministers for chis plan also about 600 servants their wish, on all occasions, to save every expence which it was possible talions or to fresh recruits. It might to spare. But in so doing, however be said, that that was the case with anxious the house might be to ex- the regiments in the West Indies; ert the most rigid economy, it should but what would be the consequence, consider whether it was better at he repeated, of such an arrangement once to adopt an ascertained and in case of war? The result of keeppermanent establishment, of which ing up too low an establishment the expenses were submitted to them; would be equally disadvantageous ; or by rejecting that, and endeavour- for, supposing the regiments to coning to reduce it to an impracticable sist of 400 men each, and say that 600 scale, to find itself hereafier involved shall be added in time of war, mak. only in greater expences, and in ing their full complement 1,000 men, greater difficulties.

The honourable on the war breaking out they would gentieman opposite, he thought, had be at a most enormous expence greatly over-rated the saving which filling them up. The honourable the adoption even of his own plan gentleman had said, that the saving could effect. In fixing the peace. to be effected by reducing 3 regi

: establishment of the country, the ments of cavalry and 5 battalions of house would see that it was not only infantry would amount to L.120,000. necessary to consider what was a fair This appeared to be greatly exag. and reasonable force, but that it was gerated. He (Lord Palmerston) requisite to give to our army, in the had understood the honourable gen. event of a war, should that ever un- tleman on a former occasion to say 5 fortunately happen, the means of its regiments of cavalry; and therefore augmentation with promptness, vi- the advantage, in the calculation gour, and efficacy. In this view he which he (Lord Palmerston) had really thought the proposed establish- made on the subject, was all on the ment combined as many advantages honourable gentleman's side. Now as it was possible to incorporate into he believed it would be found, that any one. It was evident that, what- even upon the honourable gentieever was the establishment proposed, man's own arrangement, the saving there would be many to dispute its would not exceed L. 31,958. The eligibility-many who would contest total saving indeed, upon that plan, even the honourable gentleman's are would be L. 175,000. But against rangement. Certainly, he (Lord this last amount were to be placed Palmerston) believed, that in some the unattached pay of general officases it would be less expensive to cers, the half-pay of the reduced of. have higher establishments than he ficers, military allowances, allow: proposed; but great inconvenience ances for clothing of officers and would inevitably result from that men, and also for out-pensioners, to system, in the event of a war. Sup- sergeants, staff-sergeants, private posing the establishment of the re- soldiers, and other men belonging giments was fixed at 800 men, in to the different regiments, besides what manner would they be able on L. 41,958 for remaining miscellanethe breaking out of hostilities to aug- ous services, making altogether & ment them? Why, they might pro- total of L. 143,042, which would repose to add 200 men to each, and so duce the saving to L. 31,958. They form an unmanageable, unwieldy would have, besides, to disband their establishment; and to effect that, regiments for the purpose of redu, they must either resort to new bat- cing them, and be at the additional

expence of raising fresh men, in colonies in the East and West Indies, case of war, to complete them; so Ceylon, and the Mauritius, he (Lord that allowing the amount, after Palmerston) put it to the house, these additional deductions, to be whether it was higher than might be L. 13,802, the utmost at which it expected. could be estimated, it would not be Mr J. P. Grant conceived that worth while accomplishing. Now, the arguments of the Noble Lord, taking the establishment proposed however well they might apply to a at 28 regiments of cavalry, and 18 very low establishment, were not at battalions of infantry, by the addi- all relevant to the one in question. tion in the cavalry of only one cap- They could only apply to such a tain, 1 sergeant, and I private; and one as that settled by Mr Pitt, in in the infantry, of 1 lieutenant, 2 ser. 1792. That suggested by his hogeants, and I corporal, to each com- nourable and gallant friend was 25 pany; they could at any time raise regiments of cavalry, and 91 battathe cavalry to 5,880, and the infantry lions of infantry, Now, when he to 26,705, or 32,585 additional men; heard the Noble Lord propose as the by which means, on any emergency, permanent peace establishment of they might

have their regiments al- the country 18 battalions of infantry, most as effective as at any period (which 18 were to be more numeduring the war. The expence of rous than the 91,) he really could recruiting would be almost a trifle ; not see why the Noble Lord's reasonbut the difference of expence between ing was to

be made equally apkeeping up this establishment, and plicable to high as to low establishraising new

regiments, would not be ments. There were gentlemen who less than L. 303,000 per annum.

heard him now, he believed, who He trusted, therefore, that the house were upon the Committee of Finance would not agree to the honourable of 1792, and voted for that establishgentleman's motion, seeing that the ment: if any such now heard him, proposed establishment combined all he called upon them to come forthe advantages of efficacy with the ward and state upon what grounds most guarded economy, both as to they could give so inconsistent a present and future arrangements; vote as should support the one at and that it afforded the means, when present proposed. The establishever it might become necessary, to

ment in 1792 was 11,000 men in all, raise an army, of doing so with in. while 30,000 and upwards were now finitely more vigour, and economy proposed for Great Britain alone. too, than a higher establishment Mr Goulburn believed that these could offer. The honourable gentle- establishments had been very nearly man had stated that our whole peace the same in principle for a great establishment in 1787 (including Ire. number of consecutive years. All land) cost us only L. 1,039,800, the points alluded to by the honourwhich he had appeared to considerable gentleman had been fully exsufficient at the present time; where- plained and discussed by his noble as his own estimate, exclusive of Ire- friend on introducing the estimates, land, was upwards of L. 2,000,000. and he thought it too much for the Now, when it was considered that house to be called on to acquiesce in the present establishment included the views of the honourable member, not only Ireland, but the whole who had not thought proper to go force necessary for our additional into any details, nor inquire into the necessity of any one branch of the increased number of those posses service. The peace establishment sions, as requiring an increased ex. of the year 1792 had been represent- penditure ; but such a reason would ed as the true standard, and he fully entirely fail, if, as he had been inadmitted that reference should he formed, their revenues amounted to had to it, whenever a material change nearly a million and a half; as he of circumstances, or the increased understood the revenues of Ceylon number of our foreign possessions, were about L. 640,000, those of the did not make such a comparison al Cape of Good Hope L. 229,000, together inapplicable. În forming those of the Mauritius L. 206,000, a fair judgment on this subject, it of Malta L. 114,000, of the lonian was essential to revert to the policy Islands L. 120,000. It was the opiwhich we found it expedient to nion of the Committee, that these adopt at the commencement of the revenues ought to be made applilast war, for the purpose of sudden- cable to the support of their civil ly raising a force which should be and military charges. It was the equal to our defence at home, whilst duty of the house to ascertain this it was also disposeable for foreign fact, and to render such revenues, operations. The honourable and if they should be found to exist, learned member had not controvert available for the public service. He ed the propriety of any particular apprehended that the house had alestimate ; and in the absence there. ways been accustomed to regard fore of every thing but general as- with jealousy the application of any sertion, he could only renew the revenues by the Ministers of the general argument founded on the Crown, without the cognisance of political changes which had taken parliament. He had himself certainly place since the year 1792, and seen no returns to the house, as to the which changes had been amply in-appropriation of such revenues, out vestigated on former occasions by of which Ministers might therefore both sides of the house.

bestow pensions, or otherwise emThe amendment having been put ploy for their own purposes. Before and negatived, the second resolution the house voted this sum for the staff, was then read, containing a vote of they ought to know what had already L. 749,937:8:10 for the mainte- become of the L. 1,200,000 a-year nance of the land forces in Ireland, which had been already derived from which after a few words from Colonel these sources. If, therefore, there Davies and Lord Palmerston was should be no disposition to postpone agreed to; and it was moved, that a this vote, he would move, as an asum not exceeding L.181,021:1:3 mendment, that instead of L.118,000 be granted to his Majesty for the the sum should be L. 96,000; and support of the staff, exclusive of should sit down with re-stating his India.

opinion, that this subject ought long Before this vote should pass, Mr since to have been brought under Hume thought it necessary to re- public consideration. call to the recollection of the house, Mr Goulburn remarked, that the the recommendation of a Committee, observations of the right honourable in the year 1817, with regard to the gentleman were not simply and ex. military establishment in some of clusively connected with the vote our foreign possessions. The house under consideration, but applied to had that day been reminded of the the principle upon which this country

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