[COM. that he did not assume to legislate for the future without going on firm ground. He was next to come more immediately to the plans proposed by the noble lord in his resolutions. These resolutions divided themselves into three points. The first and sixth related to the comparative effect of the present system and proposed plan; and the ninth and tenth adopting the vices, as they had been termed, of his plan, vere intended to shew, that the same means of relief would be afforded by the existing system as by the new plan. But the noble lord had assumed as a right, on his part, of the public to take from the sinking fund without giving any equivalent to the stockhold ers. He agreed with his right honourable friend (Mr. Tierney), that the sinking fund was first created not for the interest of the stockholder, but of the public. It was a boom in 1806, granted by Mr. Pitt to the stockholders ; but what was the situation of the stockholders who had since lent their capital on the credit of that fund? The House should pause before it should touch that sacred ground. The noble lord, with his plan, interposed be tween the public and public creditor, by proposing to take the excesses of the sinking fund after the year 1816, and without giving any equivalent to the stockholder. The effect of the noble lord's plan on the redemption of the public debt would be, that ninety millions would, at the end of the period, remain unredeemed, and the whole would not be paid till the year 1832; whereas, by the new plan, the whole would be redeemed in 1824. The noble lord's plan, therefore, would retard the redemption of the debt eight years: "Anxious the public debt to pay, the noble lord takes all that could retard the redemption of the debt, and leaves out all that could accelerate it. The plan of the noble lord proposed to take the excesses of the sinking fund between 1816 and 1826, in which period only they could accrue, and as it would be necessary for him to provide for the loans of the year between the present year and the year 1816, an amount of 6,947,000/. would be necessary. If this sum were not provided by new taxes, it must by ruinous loans, and if ultimately to be provided for out of the excesses of the sinking fund in the last period, it would anticipate these excesses, and render them unavailable unavailable when they should accrue. As to what had been said relative to a future peace establishment, he had only to observe, that that subject had not been excluded from the view of his majesty's ministers. The means of providing for that establishment would exist in a higher degree than at the close of the late war; certainly in a much higher degree than at the close of the American war, when the right honourable gentleman opposite (Mr. Rose) admitted that the public revenue was wholly insufficient. In 1786, the peace establishment was five millions, and the revenue, exclusive of the additional taxes, amounted only to between three and four millions, which improvement was a consequence of the growing prosperity of the country. At the close of the late war, Mr. Adlington, though burthened with fifty-six millions charged upon the income tax, by one stroke of manly and vigorous financial policy, relieve the country from the income tax, and funded the debt charged upon it, providing at the same time for the interest, and sinking fund upon it. On the next peace there would be an amount of seven millions, arising out of the annual taxes, the surplus of the consolidated fund, and the produce of the lottery, applicable to the establishment ; and, as after the year 1810, considerable sums would be set free in cach year, any small sumi, that might be ncessary to fill up the peace establishment, might be approprinted from them. He should not say what may be the amount of the peace establishment, for that would depend on the state of France, and of Europe; but he could look with confidence to the resources of the country to supply ample mens for providing for such an establishment. He complained that the noble lord in calculating the comparative effect of the new plan, had given an unfair view of the question by stating, as he had truly done, the amount of the debt created, but withholding the effect of the sinking fund for its redemption. As to the plan of the noble lord, contained in his eighth resolution, for keeping the sinking fund stationary when it should amount to an equality with the loan, and for adding the interest of the sum borrowed to the amount of the loan in each year, whilst the interest, and sinking fund upon that interest, was to be defrayed out of the consolidated fund, to be af terwards replaced out of the excesses of the sinking fund, he considered that as the most ruinous system that could be devised. The sum to be provided in the first year K2 would would be small; but, without troubling the committee with the intermediate accumulation, he should state, that before the excesses should accrue in 1816, the sum to be provided in the year would be eleven millions, the aggregate sums borrowed would be one hundred and forty-eight or nine millions, and the charge upon the consolidated find woald be five hundred thousand pounds. Such a system would be much more ruinous than this plan of supplementary loans. The general result of the two plans would be, that by the noble lord's plan the amount of the debt created would be, in 1826, 273,560,5317. with a sinking fund of 8,960,9877.; and by the new plan, the amount of the debt would be 304,881,4427. with a sinking fund of 19,368,000l. So that with a small increase of the public debt, there would be more than double the amount of the sinking fund. As to the other plan of the noble lord, it departed from the principle of giving immediate relief to the country, by providing that we should go on as at present, till the sinking fund should equal the amount of the loan. To this he had a fundamental objection, because it proposed to lay on 730,000l. taxes annually, till the sinking fund should reach the assumed limit, at a time when it was universally agreed, that all taxation should be avoided.. This plan did not include the possibility of an increase of expenditure, which would overturn the foundation upon which it rested. An increase of expenditure would create an increasing debt, whilst the sinking fund would be stationary. He had then to advert to two benefits which would result from the new plan, and which it was important for the House to attend to. First, it would have a tendency to keep up the price of the public funds; and it was unnecessary for him to state the importance of keeping up the value of the funds. On this point, he could speak with more confidence, because in the short space of a fortnight, this effect had been produced. The second benefit was, that it would have the effect of keeping down the price of stores, by keeping down the extent of taxation. Having trespassed on the committee at such great length, as much as his own strength and the patience of the House would permit, he did not-purpose again troubling the House upon the subject, unless it should be necessary for him to give explanation upon any point which might appear to require it. Lord Castlereagh intended to comprise in as small a compass compass as possible, the observations he had to make upon the subject before the committee. As to what had been said of the objection imputed to him and his right honourable friend (Mr Rose), that the new plan was to legislate for the future, he had only to state that they did not contend that any enactment on this subject would preclude Parliament from taking such measures as would hereafter be deemed necessary. They had only contended that Parliament should not involve itself in a measure which it would have hereafter to alter or abandon. There was but one sentiment on all sides of the House with respect to the expediency of relieving the country from taxation. There was something coercive in the language of the noble lort respecting the sinking fund. If he understood the noble lord, he had said that the sinking fund was not to be touched, unless by a kind of bargain with the stockholder, who was to have his quid pro quo from the public. But he wished to be informed what quid pro quo was to be given to the stockholder when the noble lord came to take the excesses of the sinking fund. The principle laid down by the noble lord on this subject could not be acted upon, and he would be obliged to abandon it. Parliament had unquestionably a right to exercise its discretion respecting a sinking fund; but here he begged to state, that he should not wish for any measure to be adopted that would prove injurious to the public creditor, and he contended that the interest of the public creditor would be best consulted by the adop tion of either of his suggestions than by the plan proposed by the noble lord. If the sinking fund was to be touched at all, it would in either of the cases suggested by him be touched in a manner less liable to objection than in the manner proposed in the new plan. The excesses as calculated on in the new plan would be available both in war and in peace, and at the disposal of the minister, whereas according to his plan the excesses could only be taken during war, when loans would be necessary. His plan would afford a greater principle of limitation on the discretion of Parliament respecting these excesses; besides, the interest of the stockholder was materially concerned in keeping up the value of capital in the market, and it would be impossible to effect that, when in the last period a loan of thirty-two millions annually would be raised, may of forty or filly millions, in consequence of the rise of stores, the depreciation of money, and an increase of expenditure. Small Small loans with a small sinking fund, would be much more beneficial to the stockholder than a loan of that amount with a sinking fund of twenty-seven millions. The noble lord had that night, in express terms, admitted that his system was founded upon a principle of raising money upon a compound interest, though he contended for the advantage of a compound benefit. But he had no doubt, that the noble lord upon reflection, would perceive how unwise a principle that was. The noble lord proposed to borrow money to pay the interest of his war loans, as well as the interest upon that interest. What would be the effect of such a statement going forth to Europe; and he could not see any other view in bringing forward the plan at present, but to exhibit it to Europe? There were good calculators, he wished the noble lord to recollect, in Europe, and particularly in that part of it, with which we were at present at issue, and they could not fail to discover the fallacy of a system built upon compound loans and compound interest, a system which must inevitably lead to bankruptcy. There was only one authority upon which the noble lord could justify such a system, and he thanked God that his late right honourable friend afforded no such authority. There had been but one person who, as a public man, could declare to a nation that he would provide for the expences of a war, and for the interest of the debt incurred, by loan without taxes. That man was Mr. Necker; and he trusted the example was one which the noble lord would not be ambitious to imitate. After the difliculties experienced last year with respect to taxes, and the gloomy representations which had been made, without foundation, as it appeared to him, of the finances of the country, it was somewhat extraordinary to have this plan proposed by raising above four hundred millions upon a fund of two millions and fifty-one thousand pounds. The noble lord seemed to have found the philosopher's. stone, and certainly it would appear to Europe as if there was conjuring in it. But from the effect of his plan, it would appear that the noble lord had discovered the ne gative philosopher's stone, which his right honourable friend Mr. Tierney) would explain to him, the power of spending money without creating resources. He here begged leave to repeat, that the noble lord's system would increase the public debt ninety millions; and contended, that there was a most striking difference between its effect, and |