donment of common prudence. The noble baron (Lord Grenville) had said that a misapprehension had taken place upon the subject, but he should contend, that the ministers should not have resorted to the circuitous, and, he should add, unconstitutional mode of endeavouring to collect his majesty's sentiments, by sending for his perusal dispatches that were to be sent to another part of the empire. It was rather extraordinary that the first lord of the treasury should have had an audience of his majesty so soon after, and not speak of the subject; that the question should have been so studiously kept out of view. If any trouble had been taken by that noble lord to ascertain his majesty's sentiments, the consequences that have resulted might have been prevented. The demand of the pledge had arisen out of the reservations made by the noble lords, and when it was probable that the question would again be renewed to his majesty, he asked, whether it was extraordinary that his majesty should look to another quarter for ministers whose sentiments might more nearly correspond with his own? The ministers themselves had argued, that the cause of their making their reservations was, lest their omission to do so might have been construed into an implied admission of the pledge, which they thought disgraceful to them as privy counsellors. There were many cases in which the king should act upon his own judgment. The catholics of Ireland, knowing that the question was not decided by any party cabal or intrigue, nor for any want of affection on the part of his majesty to any part of his subjects, but in consequence of his majesty's feelings of conscience, and fear of the crime of perjury, would be guided in their conduct by a submission to the laws, by that moderation and forbearance which must be dictated by a proper regard to their interests. He should then give no opinion on the catholic question, but seeing more to approve than to regret in its accomplishment, he should be glad when the opportunity should arrive of carrying it into effect. He felt that no parliamentary ground had been laid for the motion; that the latter part ⚫ of the resolution involved a direct censure of his majesty's personal conduct, and that the first part of it included the whole comprehensive question respecting the conduct of the late ministers. He moved that their lordships do now adjourn. On the question being put, Lord Kinnaird rose and called the attention of their lordships to the consolation held out to Ireland by the noble lord who had just sat down. That noble lord had been generous of his professions of loyalty to his majesty's person, and yet that noble lord did not hesitate to tell the population of Ireland, that were it not for their king, they would then have been then in the enjoyment of the acknowledged rights and privileges of British subjects; he could not be brought to think that such a doctrine could in the slightest degree tend to promote loyalty in Ireland. The pledge with respect to Spain and the Indies had been hastily entered into, and when its impolicy was ascertained it had been wisely abandoned; such an instance was not a fair parallel with that then before their lordships. As to the arguments used by the noble earl (Selkirk), he trusted that his noble friend would not become so early a convert to a system not entirely according with those constitutional principles that had hitherto so uniformly influenced his conduct. It had been insinuated that the late ministers and their adherents were now influenced by factious motives, and it had also been said, that the present were any untried ministry. He dissented equally from both propositions. It would be presumption in him to vindicate the late ministers from the charge of faction. In the present instance it was unnecessary; they were well known and deservedly popular. As to the present ministers, he denied that they were altogether untried; surely the noble duke at the head of the government could not be said to be untried; the noble duke was certainly late in life, and perhaps it was not to be hoped that he should for the remainder of his days profit much by experience. As to the noble secretary for the home department (Lord Hawkesbury), who could be so forgetful of the noble lord's talents and success in diplomacy, as to say that that noble lord had not been tried? The right honourable gentleman at the head of the foreign department had been already tried; and surely it was not to be denied that the noble lord, not a member of that House (Castlereagh), who was now secretary for the war and colonics, had been tried, and tried sufficiently; that noble lord had proved that he could have no great ditficulty in entering into pledges; the noble lord was in this respect ever willing and competent; be could not be said to be a person of very obstinate opinions; they were often found to be conveniently variable; but at the the same time he (Lord Kinnaird) had his doubts that even the present ministry would be very cautious of entirely committing themselves with a character so pure and perfect as that of the noble secretary. The noble lord who spoke last had censured the late administration freely for their alledged remissness with respect to continental expeditions. The objection came with an ill grace from a noble lord, who had himself been a principal agent in planning and forwarding those ill-contrived and unfortu nate expeditions which so largely contributed to establish the power of the enemy, and facilitate the subjugation of Europe. He strongly condemned the means that had been resorted to, to set up and maintain the infatuated cry of the "church in danger;" and contended that a ministry obliged to resort to such pitiable expedients gave an undeniable proof of their own wretched imbecility. He was afraid that latent intrigue had deprived his majesty and the country of the services of a ministry alike eminent in purity and in talent. Secret advisers had robbed England of Lord Chatham's abilities; and the allusion was not the less apt when it was remembered that that very Lord Chatham, notwithstanding the existing prejudices of the day, put arms in the hands of the jaco bites, and sent them abroad to conquer for England all over the world. The case should be applied to Ireland. The late ministers would in time have gained over the hearts of the Irish, and England would have then been invulnerable. The noble lord said, that he could not conclude without in the strongest manner protesting against the undue and indecent interference of persons of great influence and high rank, to force any part of his majesty's subjects to petition the Parliament against any measure then pending. It had been already justly and warmly complained of in another place, that for such sinister purposes, the seats of learning in that country had becu invaded, and their retirement shamelessly obtruded upon. He again adverted to the danger of secret advisers, and concluded with giving his assent to the motion. Lord Sidmouth said, that the motion of the noble baron had relieved him from a considerable degree of difficulty. He could not have concurred in giving a negative to a resolution which expressed regret at the late change in his majesty's governinent, and which also stated the impropriety of acceding to any pledge, that might fetter the 4C2 conduct conduct of ministers in the discharge of their public duty. To the previous question he should have objected, because he was of opinion, that such a proposition as that brought forward by the noble marquis (Stafford) ought not to be entertained under any circumstances; and it therefore appeared to him, that the proper mode of disposing of it, was by a vote of adjournment. The resolution proposed by the noble marquis must be considered as arising out of the discussion which immediately preceded the Easter recess, and the renewal of it only served to increase the regret which he felt at the time, and ever since, that such a discussion should have taken place. Every allowance was however to be made for the situation and feelings of the noble baron (Grenville), by whom the explanation had been then given. The circumstances, which occasioned it, were new, and extraordinary: a mutilated extract of a cabinet minute had appeared in a public paper, even previous to the change of government; and no efforts had been spared to place the conduct of the noble baron in the most unfavourable light. These circumstances were sufficient to account for, even if they did not fully justify, the steps which he had taken in his own vindication. But, whatever might be the cause in this particular instance, it must be admitted to be highly desirable and important, that such a proceeding should not be drawn into precedent. Some of the consequences of it already began to be seriously felt. Their lordships were now called upon to vote a resolution, founded on alleged facts, to be collected from a speech, delivered on a former occasion, of which, consistently with the privileges of that House, there could be no existing memorial; but without any record on their journals, or any document on the table; in fine, without such a basis as the House would require to sustain a proceeding even on an occasion the most unim portant. As, however, certain particulars had been stated, it was indispensably necessary that they should be fully detailed, and correctly understood, in order that the transaction to which they applied might be placed in its true and proper light. Under this impression, he relied on the patience, and indulgence of their lordships, whilst he laid before them such information as appeared to him to be material for this purpose; which however he should not presume to do, without the sanction of that authority, under which the noble baron (Lord Grenville) had himself addressed thein on a former day. [Lord [Lord Sidmouth was here interrupted by the Earl of Radnor; who objected to his lordship's proceeding in the detail upon which he appeared to be entering, as being irregular in point of order, and not to be justified even by the permission to which Lord Sidmouth had alluded. His lordship said he should have given the same interruption on a former occasion, if he had been present when similar topics were first introduced by a noble baron, lately at the head of the government.] Lord Sidmouth replied, that, whatever might have been the objection to the agitation of this question in the first instance which he felt, and had before expressed; he could not but throw himself on the justice and impartiality of the House, to be allowed the same indulgence which öthers had experienced, whilst he endeavoured to state such circumstances as came within his own particular Knowledge, and which he thought were absolutely necessary to the right understanding of the transaction; professing at the same time, that he was not apprehensive that he should have occasion to 'disclose any thing which would not be sanctioned by the allowance he had received, consistently with the obligation under which he had acted, as a confidential adviser of the crown. He then proceeded to state, that the noble baron had asserted on a former day, that upon his entrance into office at the commencement of the last year, no declaration or pledge had been required of him on the subject of the catholic question; of this he could entertain no doubt; and he further owed it to that noble lord, (Lord Grenville) and 'to those of his colleagues who concurred with him in opinion on that subject, to declare, that he believed it to have been their earnest wish and fixed intention to avoid any discussion of it, or of any topics connected wit it, as far as it could be done consistently with what appeared to them to be due to their own character and to their conscientious sense of public duty. As to himself, he had, at the period when the late administration was formed, and at his first Interview with the noble baron, and with a right honourable gentleman (Mr. Fox) now no more, strongly expressed his hope that the subject would not again be agitated in Parliament, and he had stated distinctly, that, if it should be brought forward, as his sentiments upon it did not depend on feelings and opinions entertained in any other quarter, or on circumstances which were temporary, no consideration |