to get up and say to his majesty, all this has happened by your adhering to your own opinions, and not to my advice. He disliked those suppositions of disastrous cases, those prophecies of ill, thrown out on this occasion by noble lords on the other side, for those who made such prophecies had always a disposition to realise them, or at feast a wish to see them realised (hear, hear!). If men in ollice had opinions differen from those of their sovereign, he did not say they ought to give their opinions up; but if the sovereign could find other servants who would undertake to conduct the government without requiring this sacrifice, he had certainly the right to appoint and make use of them. These persons might think, that by pursuing other conciliatory measures with respect to Ireland, (for this was not the only conciliatory measure, and none but conciliatory measures could be pursued) that part of the empire might be well and kindly governed without this sacrifice. From the whole of the statement made, he thought that the late ministers upon their own shewing, had been prepeily dismissed, after that which they had proposed to his majesty had put him under the necessity of seeking relief from others, who thought, like him, that the measure under consideration ought not to be granted without an essential necessity. This proceeding of his majesty, and the acquiescence of those who were now his majesty's servants, was justified by the conduct of those, who, though first holding the measure so essential, as to be induced to bring it forward, afterwards thought it so little essential as to concede it to the sovereign, at the same time that they made it a point of duty to maintain their own opinions generally, independent of the sovereign's wishes.

Lord Grenville, in answer to the question of the noble lord, who asked whether it was proposed to him by Mr. Pitt, whom he venerated and revered, to take a part in the administration formed in 1801, he would, if all other things had been agreed upon, have insisted on the right of speaking his opinion upon the catholic question, stated, that it was in the knowledge of some persons, that he was prepared to insist on that right in its fullest amount, and that no consideration could have induced him to accept an office either with Mr. Pitt, or with any other man, without a full and distinct recognition of that right.

Lord

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Lord Holland observed, that the only object of their lordships' present consideration was, what was the real and immediate cause of the dismissal of his majesty's late mimisters. It was necessary, however, to say a few words in answer to what had fallen from a noble secretary of state; he had said, turning his eyes around him, What, will you put arms into the hands of the Roman catholics :" The noble secretary of state must recollect that one of our most faithful allies was now fighting, for the defence of Europe it might be said, in Poland, which was a Roman catholic country; would not our ally, or would not England, be ready to avail themselves of the benefit of whatever support might be offered them by these Roman catholics; and would not their lordships coincide with him, when he stated that Bonaparte did not find it a more easy task to convert the power of that people to his use on account of their being Roman catholics! An allusion had been made by a noble viscount on the other side (Lord Melville) to the opinion and conduct of a statesman now no more: he was not disposed to follow all that had been said about that gentleman; but notwithstanding his expression of admiration, at the recollection of his great and commanding eloquence, it was was well known that all those talents were employed in support of the bill for the abolition of the slave trade, at a time when his friend and colleague (Lord Melville), who now described that gentleman as the polar star of his political conduct, opposed the measure. Then it had been insinuated that danger might be apprehended in Ireland from the agitation of the question with which the proposition alluded to was immediately connected. But was it we that wrote to the people of Ireland? Was it we that made pledges to the catholics? It might be said, however, that we ought not to mind those pledges; that advice, however, he did not feel himself justified in following. He could not, consistently with his duty to his sovereign, he could not, consistently with his duty to his country, or he could not, with regard to his own character, subscribe a declaration that under no circumstances whatever, he would advise his majesty to adopt a particular measure, which might possi bly hereafter, under some particular and pressing circumstances, be the means of the silvation both of the sovereign and the country. On the contrary, he must say, that if his majesty's present ministers have come into

office on such terms as these, they have been guilty of a great breach of a fundamental principle of the constitu tion, which ought to be matter of impeachment at the bar of that House; and he could not say that if he himself had been guilty of such an act, he ought not to lose his head upon the block.

Lord Carnarvon said, I am very loth to trouble your lordships after the long and important detail of recent and interesting events, but a single minute will suffice to express the serious alarms I entertain from circumstances which seem to endanger the constitution of the country, which I have been taught to venerate and respect from my earliest youth. No country has established a wiser maxim than that which the peace, tranquillity, and liberty of this country has adopted for its happiness and security, that "the king can do no wrong;" but this wise and wholesome maxim loses its whole merit, and would be the preface to the most unbounded tyranny, if the responsibility of the king's advisers was not the legal substitute. The king is never legally supposed to act without an ostensible adviser, responsible for his advice and his ministry, in each executive department; any pledge (assured or implied) not to give any particular advice to the king which the country may in any future circumstances require, would be a pledge destructive of this sacred maxim, a treasonable conspiracy against the king and constitution, and deserving the severest punishment which high treason ever drew on its most atrocious perpetrators. Such a pledge has been incautiously required and wisely declined, which was followed by dismissal. Whoever has advised this test of office, or knowing the cause of the vacancy (by the written minutes of council) have filled it, have given the pledge required as effectually as if they had sworn it, and are responsible to the vengeance of the laws. It is no justification what the noble secretary of state has distinctly said, that the administration of the king's government could not exist without perfect unanimity between the king and his counsellors; this cannot justify the pledge, under no future circumstances of the country, to give similar advice." An actual invasion, a less remote, and less incumbered enemy, must of necessity vary the nature of advice to be given. Under an understood pledge, that in no possible future circumstances of the country they will give any advice to the king for

the

the further relief of the catholics, the present ministers have entered into office; because they declined to give this unconstitutional pledge the late ministers have been dismissed. A noble viscount (Lord Melville) has further added, that the late ministers considered the measure they proposed to Parliament as absolutely necessary, and yet under the same existing necessity they withdrew that same measure; in my humble judgment the circumstances which made its introduction highly proper were materially changed, and the measure was no longer equally advisable; the measure was clearly adopted under the persuasion that it had the king's consent, and in that case it would have drawn into most useful and material service a large body of his majesty's grateful subjects; when the king's insurmountable dislike to the measure was at last known and obvious, the same measure carried with his reluctant consent in Parliament would have armed a discontented portion of his subjects who knew his unwillingness to trust them; this was not even the same measure productive of the same effects; it was less prudent, and the daily more involved situation of our enemies, made it less necessary; but what circumstances in the revolution of a few months may most materially change the situation of the country, the wisest man cannot foresee; under these strong impres sions I cannot but think that the conduct of the late ministers has been most wise and loyal to the king and country, and that the contrary conduct has marked every step of their successors.

Lord Hawkesbury denied that with respect to the new ministry such a pledge had been given or asked. If differences existed between the king and his ministers, it was better they should separate. It was essential to the good of the country that the sovereign and his ministers should be unanimous; and therefore it was fortunate if his majesty had found a set of men who thought as he did on the subject that had been particularly under discussion.

The Earl of Buckinghamshire stated, that at the time of the existence of the Parliament of Ireland it was something like the provisions of the Irish law on this subject, as far as went to regulations, with respect to the military only. But the Irish Parliament never asserted any claim to the power of passing an act which could operate in England. A number of catholics were in the army, but the moment they came to England they would have no VOL. II. 1806-7.

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claim to the exercise of their religion. It was for this purpose of extending the law, and for that purpose only, that the proposition was at that time brought forward. After a few other observations, his lordship assured the House that in his opinion the country would never be safe as long as any question relative to the relaxation of the laws which affect the Roman catholics was agitated in Parliament; the Roman catholics themselves acknowledged that it was a favour conferred on them, that they were suffered to fight along with us. Upon the whole of his observation from what he had heard that night, the only impression upon his mind was, that a question arose on which there was a difference of opinion between the king and his ministers, and that in consequence of that his majesty had found it necessary to dismiss them from his service.

The Lord Chancellor acquainted the House that he was altogether averse to the object of the petition which had led to the adoption of the measure which was now alluded to; but as that measure had been abandoned, it was totally irrelevant for noble lords to speak of any misconception which might have taken place between his majesty and his ministers. But, if those who were then the confidential advisers of the crown, had given up the measure without any explanation, the king might on some future day have occasion to say to them, you gave me no explanation on the subject of the measure which you formerly abandoned, and now you have brought me into a dilemma. If you had reasoned with me that time as you ought to have done, I might have thought of some other mode of government, or might then have chosen other ministers." This was the only fair and honourable way of acting which his majesty's late servants could possibly have adopted, and if they had acted otherwise their conduet would have been justly liable to the censure and reprobation of their sovereign and the country. By the line of conduct which has been now pursued, the catholics will be no longer in suspense, it will be known to them, that there is now a fixed and steady determination not to alter the laws which relate to the government of that class of his majesty's subjects. By the adoption of an opposite mode of acting, ministers would have been guilty of a high breach of a material principle in the constitution of the empire. He was not at Buckingham House at the