missions whatsoever;" yet these might not be understood as covering the staff appointments; and what might further tend to lead his majesty to think so was, that these alterations were to be introduced as clauses in the mutiny bill. And what serves further to shew, that the words military commissions" might readily be understood, as not including the staff appointments, was that the words and appointments," was considered as necessary in the bill. Their lordships would feel, therefore, that the mis, conception might very naturally have arisen. At a subsequent period dispatches had been sent to his majesty, and ministers had attended him; what passed on these occasions he could not take upon him to say. That the im pression of Lord Howick was, that his majesty had con sented to carry the measure further than that of 1793, he had no doubt. But their lordships, looking at the mis conception that had prevailed at the beginning in the cabinet, and he appealed for this to the noble and learned lord on the woolsack, their lordships looking at this would not, he trusted, think it extraordinary that under the particular circumstances of this case there should have been a misconception.

As 'o the subject of toleration, he would be glad to see any one who would go futher in that respect than himself; but he always had and always would make a distinction between toleration and power Every subject had a right 10 1 leration; but power was only given as a trust by the supreme power, which ought to withhold it where the granting of it would be attended with danger. He had always opposed any minute concessio s, in point of power, to the catholics, as highly dangerous, because these would not remove their discontents, and might bring destruction on the church establishment. When he had entered into power, had distinc ly stated that he would not compromise his entiments on this subject, as he thought they were essential to the preservation of our constitution. He would no enter upon this topic at present, but he thought that we ough to stop at the point where the union left us; and while he abhorred as much as any man the raising an outcry on account of religious differences, yet he felt what was due to the cons itation and the church establishment of the country. hat was the principle on which he acted.. He knew that his opinions clashel with those of some of the wisest and best men whom this country had ever produced,

but

437 but on this point he had judged for himself, and he could allow no human authority to controul the conviction of his mind. When he came into an administration which, he would say, had, most unfortunately for the country, been dissolved, his opinions were known. He had distinctly stated these opinions, and that no consideration could induce him to compromise them. He lamented that this difference should have occurred between his majesty and his late servants; but he was satisfied, and he hoped their lordships were satisfied, that there had been an evident misconception on the part of his majesty with regard to the extent to which the bill was carried.

Lord Hawkesbury had never heard the noble viscount with more real satisfaction, than during the speech which he had just finished, because he perceived that his noble friend had not abandoned those principles upon which they had formerly acted. When this measure had been brought forward, he felt considerable satisfaction that his noble friend was a member of administration, because he was convinced that the country had in him in the cabinet a security against the attempt to break down the church establishment. He was fully sensible of the delicacy of the question before the House; he felt the delicacy of the discussion when a question was at issue between a subject and his sovereign. It was not for him to decide whether or not this discussion could have been avoided. Much had been said by the noble baron, and the noble viscount of the publications that had taken place on this subject. Of these he knew nothing, and felt as much regret as any person that such statements should have found their way to the public. But he must observe, that previous to his having any knowledge of the transaction, there had been many rumours in circulation, directly con rary to the fact, and proved to be so by the statement of the noble baron himself, which had proceeded, no doubt, from individuals not connected with his majesty's government. Under these circumstances he had thought it his duty to request the permission of his sovereign, after notice of the noble baron's intention had been given, to communicate the whole circumstances of the case to his friends, in order, that if this discussion should unfortunately come on, they might be prepared to meet it, and to state, on the part of his majesty, what were those principles, both with regard to the honour of the crown and the interests of the empire,

that

that bad induced him to adopt the course which he had taken. The catholic subject was not a new one. It had often been under consideration, and had, about two yearf since, after the most ample discussion in both Houses o Parliament, been decided upon by the largest majorities ever known, considering the character and talents of the persons who had brought it forward. The noble baron had stated what would be the effect of the measure, both as to its im mediate result, and with reference to its future consequences; but he should beg leave to state what bad been the feelings of that illustrious person (Mr. Pitt), whose virtues, character, and unrivalled abilities, were universally admir ed, beloved and revered, but who unfortunately was then no more, upon this subject. When that distinguished person had come last into office, though he had before withdrawn from his public situation in consequence of this measure, yet knowing the honest conscientious principles that prevailed against it, principles which ought to be upheld in any quarter, but still more in that exalted quarter in which they existed, he had not in consequence of any pledge demanded of him, but voluntarily engaged not to bring forward the question. He stated this as a fact known to himself, and not as a reproach to the noble baron; he stated merely what had been the opinion and feeling upon this subject of so high an authority, for which the noble baron must entertain as high a respect as himself. He had less difficulty in stating this, because he had always differed from his late right honourable friend upon this ques tion, which he had always estimated on the merits. He agrced entirely with the noble viscount, that if the policy pursued should not be steady on this head, they would be continually fomenting troubles and discontents. Whilst he was ready to admit that no ordinary law should be unchangeable, there were fundamental laws which ought not to be altered, except upon the utmost pressing necessity. The right of petition, the trial by jury, and the independence of the judges, were fundamental principles of the constitution, and a protestant government and establishment were equally so. The same changes that might be wise with respect to other laws, were not to be applied to fundamental laws. They might alter the constitution of the army, the establishment of the navy, the regulations of the revenue, or, as they were at that time in the course of doing, the administration of justice; but if any such

change

change were to be carried into effect with respect to the national establishment, it would overthrow the constitution. This doctrine might be termed big try: but he would prefer to any new lights, the bigotry of 1688, which had effected the revolution, and established the liberties of this country on the most solid foundation. Before he should comment upon what had been stated by the noble baron, he begged to say a few words upon the subject of the particular measure that had led to the present circumstances. He could not conceive any practical good that could result from it. He had differed with the noble lords opposite on the catholic claims, and on that subject he could understand their arguments, but it was otherwise with respect to this measure. Had they any reason to think that this measure would have satisfied the catholics, or, that having obtained this, they would not equally desire every thing else! This measure was to give them the sword, but to refuse them every thing beside; and yet he had never conversed with any person upon the subject, who would hot rather grant to the catholics what his majesty's ministers by this measure refused them, and refuse what they granted. He was adverse to the measure, because it would grant what was dangerous to give, and what was not calculated to give satisfaction, or to produce content. He came next to consider the misunderstanding that had taken place upon the subject. In observing upon this part of the statement of the noble baron, and in supplying Semne particulars which had been omitted by him, he did not feel any inclination to detract from the credit due to the noble baron's statement, or to give a partial colour to the case. If he should be guilty of any inaccuracy, the noble baron would, he trusted, correct him; and in the observations which he proposed to make, he was actuated by a desire of promoting the honour of the crown, the dignity of the king, and, with reference to themselves, of discharging a most scrupulous duty. The noble baron had accurately stated that the measure had originated in the dispatch from the Irish government. This dispatch had been laid before his majesty, and upon an attentive perusal of the contents of that dispatch, he was of the opinion of his noble friend, that all that was desired in the disatch was the extension of the provisions of the Irish act nerally; this was the impression upon his mind on ge ding the dispatch, and the same impressions seemed to

have been felt by Mr. Elliot, who, when asked by the catholic deputies, whether the measure was to remove the Limitations of the Irish act, decli ed an explicit answer, till he should refer the question to the British government. His majesty had, in the first instance, unequivocally and strongly declared his disapprobation of the measure. In consequence of this disapprobation, a long cabinet minute had been laid before his majesty, detailing, in an able manner, the rea-ons for the adoption of the measure, with a view to induce him to retract his objection, and to consent to a measure of a limited nature. It was impossible, therefore, that either the noble viscount, or the noble and learned lord, could have supposed that the measure was to go further than to make the provisions of the Irish act genetal. A doubt might i deed have been felt, and he had entertained that feeling, whether the measure was only to include Irish catholics, or the catholics of the empire. But upon a more attentive perusal of the minute, he was convinced that it had been proposed to extend the provisions of the measure to the catholics of the empire. Hie stated this to prove, that by every argument which had been used to obtain his majesty's consent to the measure, it was clear that the bill proposed was only to extend the provisions of the Irish bill. His majesty was assured, that it was only the same measure to which he had consented in 1793, and that the present measure was only intended to carry into effect that act, according to the principle upon which i had been enacted. That principle had been to give to the catholics the privilege of holding certain commissions in the army, at the same time reserving others; and if the principle of the act of 1793 were to have been the principle of the proposed measure, he contended that the reservation formed as much a part of that principle, as the admission of certain commissions. This opinion he felt more strongly, from the manner in which the measure had been brought forward, so different from that which had been first proposed. It had been at first intended to carry the principle into effect, by the introduction of clauses for that purpose; but when it was determined on to carry the measure farther than was at first proposed, it was found that a clause in the mutiny bill could not make that law general, which had been before limited, and therefore a separate bill had been thought necessary. The result of all he had stated was, that no proposition

could