Mr. JAMES CLARK. I wouldn't say none of the 10. I would say it wouldn't necessarily have to be a qualified appraiser. Yes, I knew one who could qualify as an appraiser, a district

Mr. MAY. You know of 1 out of 10?

Mr. JAMES CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. MAY. You then know nine who are not?

Mr. JAMES CLARK. Very near nine.

Mr. MAY. Moving along in time, I would quote from a memo, captioned "Right-of-Way Report for the Month of June 1959," the month after you got there.

It states that the reviewing appraiser has been unable to employ two qualified field review appraisers. [Reading:]

He may be aiming his sights too high for the State's appraiser salary bracket. Although he now has an office assistant and a clerk to check calculations and appraisal inadequacies, it is still physically impossible for him to conduct a full review on every parcel.

What did you mean by "he may be aiming his sights too high for the State's appraiser salary bracket"?

Mr. JAMES CLARK. Well, I got the impression he wanted qualified appraisers, real estate men, who had many years of experience. In fact, he told me that some of the real estate men or appraisers refused to take his offer. And those fellows, I happened to know, were in the real estate business making more money than he had to offer.

Mr. MAY. In other words, Mr. Thompson wanted a qualified man in that position, and he wasn't able to pay the qualified man enough money to get a qualified man. Is that what you are saying? Mr. JAMES CLARK. That's right. Yes, sir.

Mr. MAY. So, instead, he got an office assistant and a clerk.

Now, were those people qualified to review appraisals?

Mr. JAMES CLARK. Only for omissions and some information or calculations.

Mr. MAY. Those people did not know the appraisal business, did they?

Mr. JAMES CLARK. No. That's right, no.

Mr. MAY. They could check for mathematical errors and work out the calculations?

Mr. JAMES CLARK. That's right.

Mr. MAY. We talked about Mr. Thompson, the chief appraiser or reviewing appraiser.

After you were in West Virginia for some time did you begin to doubt whether Mr. Thompson himself was qualified to be a reviewing appraiser?

Mr. JAMES CLARK. I did. Yes, sir.

Mr. MAY. What caused you to doubt Mr. Thompson's ability? Mr. JAMES CLARK. Well, he wouldn't he didn't document these figures, showing how he arrived at certain figures.

He would change the negotiating figure of a fee appraiser. Maybe he would say the land is worth more than they showed and he didn't give any comparables. And he would like to give proximity damage without giving any reason other than being proximity

Mr. MAY. You discovered that Mr. Thompson was sitting in his office, changing the appraisal reports submitted by the fee appraisers? Mr. JAMES CLARK. Yes, sir.

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Mr. May. Increasing the damage that he might be

Mr. JAMES CLARK. He would be increasing the negotiating figure over and above the appraised value of the fee appraiser.

Mr. May. Just because a portion of somebody's property is taken does it necessarily follow that there will be damage to the residual property?

Mr. JAMES CLARK. No, but Mr. Thompson called that a State roads commission appraisal, and he instructed his fee appraisers that that was what they required.

Sometimes they took a foot off a stretch of land, maybe 150 feet deep in commercial property, and just set your front line back a few feet, and there is no damage at all.

And in some cases you would enhance the value of the property due to the construction, and he said, “No, there would have to be a damage to the residue.”

Mr. May. So it was Mr. Thompson's belief that if you took any part of the property, just naturally there would be damage to the

Mr. JAMES CLARK. I had several arguments with him on that. Yes, sir. I couldn't convince him.

Mr. May. How did you make out?

Mr. JAMES CLARK. I couldn't convince him. Well, another instance was a new location of a highway going in back of some homes where they had a highway in front. Wasn't disturbed, but he had maybe a half a mile or three-quarters of a mile further to go in one direction. And he only gave damage to the residue, to "longer” travel, circuitry of travel. That's not legal in West Virginia. That's a noncompensable item, and I tried to convince him, to take him to an attorney, Duffy Horan,

who is an attorney, and I couldn't
Mr. CRAMER. Mr. Chairman, I cannot understand the witness.
Mr. JAMES CLARK. Sir?
Mr. CRAMER. I cannot understand the witness, Mr. Chairman.
Can he speak a little louder?
Mr. BLATNIK. Speak a little more loudly, Mr. Clark.

Mr. May. In that particular case, Mr. Clark, what you said was that there was a situation where no taking was made of the property but Thompson was under the impression that because the property owner might have to travel greater distances than he formerly had to travel, that he was damaged and he paid for it?

Mr. JÁMES CLARK. Well, there was a taking on this property, but the fee appraiser allowed á damage for further distance to travel.

Mr. MAY. I see. In other words, Mr. Thompson was attempting to give payment for a noncompensable item?

Mr. JAMES CLARK. That's right. Yes, sir.
Mr. CRAMER. You say the fee appraiser included that?

Mr. JAMES CLARK. That was in his appraisal. Mr. Thompson approved it. I argued with him about it and asked him to go to an attorney, Duffy Horan, who is an attorney, to interpret it for him.

Mr. CRAMER. So, what happened? He went to the attorney and what did he find out?

Mr. JAMES CLARK. He found with me, that it is a noncompensable item. You couldn't convince Mr. Thompson. He still argued, the man was damaged. Well, he was, but that is not the proper procedure.

The property owner can go into a court of claims for damage if he

Mr. CRAMER. Who went to the attorney and asked?
Mr. JAMES CLARK. Mr. Thompson and I both went to the attorney.
Mr. CRAMER. The attorney said it was noncompensable?
Mr. JAMES CLARK. That's right.
Mr. CRAMER. What did Thompson do?

Mr. JAMES CLARK. He still thought the property owner was entitled to damages.

Mr. CRAMER. What was the settlement figure on that property? Was it included in the settlement ?

Mr. JAMES CLARK. It was included in the settlement to the property owner. When I reviewed the appraisal I caught this and I caught his digit and that's where we got into an argument.

Mr. May. Was Mr. Thompson concerned about what you thought? Mr. JAMES CLARK. Well, evidently, he wasn't.

Mr. May. I am not thinking of just that one instance. I am thinking of your discussions with Mr. Thompson, generally, throughout your term of duty. You were not too successful in getting Mr. Thompson to make the corrections that you thought were necessary?

Mr. JAMES CLARK. No, I wasn't.
Mr. May. As you say, in one of your memos
A man with 35 years of experience in building, buying and trading in real
estate does not necessarily qualify him as a reviewing appraiser.

Mr. JAMES CLARK. Yes, sir.
Mr. May. Were you referring to Mr. Thompson at that time ?
Mr. JAMES CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. May. Would you explain that—that a man can be in the real estate business for 35 years and then not be qualified to be a reviewing appraiser?

Mr. JAMES CLARK. Well, he had been in the buying and selling, and in building all this time and he could look at a piece of property and know what it would sell for, but making an appraisal that would be acceptable to the Bureau, he couldn't do that.

Mr. May. Exactly. Appraising is a profession in and of itself? Mr. JAMES CLARK. That's right. Yes, sir.

Mr. May. The fact that somebody buys property does not qualify him to make appraisals. Is that right?

Mr. JAMES CLARK. That's right.

Mr. May. So now you have a situation where the only person in the State of West Virginia, reviewing appraisals, and then only some, was Mr. Thompson who is apparently not qualified ?

Mr. JAMES CLARK. Now, that's my opinion. That is one man's opinion against another.

Mr. MAY. Well, we have heard of others. But you were division appraiser for the Bureau of Public Roads? Mr. JAMES CLARK. That's right. Mr. CRAMER. May I ask a question there, Mr. Chairman? Mr. BLATNIK. Mr. Cramer.

Mr. CRAMER. What are the qualifications in West Virginia to become an appraiser?

Mr. JAMES CLARK. That would be difficult to answer. We have asked that in the new PPM 21-4.1 in December 1961.

That was asked, insisting on the qualifications of the appraiser, and it states answers to those questions.

Qualifications of appraisers consist of so many years of experience and—really, I don't have one.

They sent out a questionnaire saying, “What properties are you familiar with; what properties have you appraised, whether commercial, industrial, light industrial, farm, or small properties, houses and whatnot?"

Then they would try to add so much to it, so many years of real estate experience and give him an opportunity to make an appraisal. And then he is judged on his appraisal whether he is

Mr. CRAMER. So they use people as appraisers who have never appraised before? Mr. JAMES CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. CRAMER. And you say, according to the answer on this questionnaire on the PPM of 1961, that the answer was, in your opinion, that they still had no qualifications for appraisers ?

Mr. JAMES CLARK. They were working on that when I left, Mr. Cramer.

Well, there are 35 questions now and they are insisting on a qualification being in there, and the answer—I don't know what it was.

Mr. May. Mr. Clark, did you begin to suspect that Mr. Thompson was instructing fee appraisers as to the value of property and damages of property?

Mr. JAMES CLARK. Instructing them?

Mr. May. Yes. Did you suspect Mr. Thompson was instructing the fee appraisers

Mr. JAMES CLARK. Yes, sir, I did —

Mr. May (continuing). As to his opinion on the value of the damages?

Mr. JAMES CLARK. Well, it was indicated on one project that I reviewed that the original appraisal, made by the fee appraiser, was more realistic than the negotiation figures. They were changed several times.

And we had a meeting—I attended a meeting with Mr. Thompson, and three or four fee appraisers. There was such a wide spread between the fee appraisers as to try to get them together.

The lowest would come up to the high and they—at that time they said, no, that was their opinion and they were going to stick with it. But later, the figure was changed to come up to the high.

Mr. CRAMER. That was not the question, Mr. Chairman.

The question was, to your knowledge, Did Mr. Thompson try to influence the fee appraisers in making their appraisals?

Mr. JAMES CLARK. In that instance I would say “yes,” because a fee appraiser came up to me in a restaurant down in Charleston. This one fee appraiser I can call him by name, if you want, but I knew he had changed his appraisal and he didn't support the amount of negotiation, and I knew he was studying under MAI in Huntington. And I went through this MAI to ask them if they would change their opinion due to somebody asking them to. This one appraiser came to me later on the street, while I was in a restaurant, and he said, "I will not change my opinion for nobody any more.

He said, “I have give my opinion and I'm going to stick to it from now on."

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So, after a while, I had come to a conclusion that Mr. Thompson had instructed appraisers to change them.

Mr. BLATNIK. Mr. May.

Mr. May. Mr. Clark, can you speak of the qualifications of the other personnel in the Right of Way Division other than Mr. Thompson ? Were they qualified ?

Mr. JAMES CLARK. Well, what? The central office or the whole office in general ?

Mr. May. Let's talk about the central office.

Those people in the central office, working for Mr. Thompson, were they qualified to do the work?

Mr. JAMES CLARK. According to their—you know, just as far as collecting or checking appraisals and computations

Mr. May. Checking arithmetic?
Mr. JAMES CLARK (continuing). Arithmetic, yes.

Mr. May. How about the people out in the districts, the district right-of-way agents, were they qualified to perform the function of district right-of-way agents?

Mr. JAMES CLARK. Several of them were. I don't know-
Mr. May. Some were and some were not?

Mr. JAMES CLARK. Some were and some I wouldn't think were qualified. Yes, sir.

Mr. May. Maybe it was an overstatement when we spoke to you earlier, Mr. Clark, when you said that no one in the right-of-way division knew anything about right of way.

Mr. JAMES CLARK. Sir?

Mr. May. You mentioned to us, when we spoke to you out in West Virginia, that no one in the right-of-way division knew anything about right of way. That was an overstatement. Somebody in the right-ofway division probably knew something about right of way. Is that right? Mr. JAMES CLARK. Oh, yes. I didn't mean it that way.

Mr. May. Were you able to judge the competency of the fee appraisers? You are in a position to comment on these things, Mr. Clark, because in the course of your work the results of their work would become evident to you?

Mr. JAMES CLARK. Well, I reviewed projects—run a spot check review on different projects. My comments were written up and sent to the State roads commission in West Virginia, and they, in turn, read the appraisals.

Mr. May. There were numerous occasions where you criticized the work being done by these fee appraisers ?

Mr. JAMES CLARK. I did. Yes, sir.

Mr. May. I was wondering if you ever went to Mr. Thompson and complained about his use of a particular fee appraiser and urged him not to use that particular fee appraiser thereafter?

Mr. JAMES CLARK. I don't believe, individually, no. I would talk to him about the work and keep writing these reports or comments to him. In other words, he should know by these same comments on the same appraiser that he wasn't qualified

Mr. May. You expected if you notified Mr. Thompson frequently enough that the inadequate work being performed by a particular fee appraiser that he would drop that fee appraiser?