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wool was cheaper in England, Ireland, by sport a manufacture than it was to establish purchasing here, must render the price one in a country differently circumstanced of that article the same in both countries, with regard to capital.' It had been and consequently the inequality in point stated, that in order to carry on this maof price, which was so much dreaded, nufacture, which produced near twenty would be done away.--Another argument millions annually, there was a capital of which had been urged, had very much 6,000,0001. actually sunk. What temptaastonished him; namely, that from the tion, then, had the manufacturers to transgreat cheapness of freight, wool might be fer all the manufactures of this country to sent at less expense to Ireland than it Ireland ? Why, in the first place, they could be from one part of England to must give up the six millions they have another. With respect to all the places sunk in England; and before they can from which Yorkshire drew its supply of establish it in Ireland, they must sink six wool, the communication between them millions more there. He stated this to and Yorkshire was much more easy than show, not that Ireland would derive any adbetween them and Ireland.—The next vantage from this regulation, but that there argument was, that the cheapness of wages was not the least reason to apprehend that in Ireland would enable her to manufac. sudden transfer which could give a shock ture cheaper. It was stated, that as wages to the vested capital.- The next part of and taxes were lower in Ireland, she must the subject was that which related to the beat England, where wages and taxes state of skill and machinery in the two were higher. This was assuming a prin countries. There was much difficulty in ciple which contradicted the experience finding the extent to which our manufacof the world, that a country which was turers had benefited by the improvement taxed more lightly, was better able to car- of machinery; that it had done much, ry on manufactures than a richer country however, was perfectly clear. There was labouring under heavier taxation. If that a difference in the statement of the degree proposition was true, would the manufac- in which the manufacture depended upon tures of Great Britain have risen to such machinery; but take it either way, and an unexampled height under such a weight the conclusion was the same. If little of of taxation? The calculation which the the manufacture was carried on by malearned counsel had made upon the sub- chinery, then most of it must depend upon ject, was most inapplicable. He had human skill and ingenuity; if that was so, taken the whole of the taxes of the two it was not the day-labourer, but the skil. countries, and divided them by the num. ful manufacturer that was wanted, and bet of the inhabitants, and had stated the then Ireland would have no advantage, for result as the amount of each contribution. the reasons he had before stated. If, on It was astonishing how such a calculation the other hand, most of it depended upon could be made. How many parts were machinery, then all the argument about there in this country in which the taxes the cheapness of labour in Ireland fell to had no effect upon the price of wages ? the ground, for machinery was as dear in Did the land-tax, did the assessed taxes; one country as it was in the other. Takdid the stamp duties increase the price ing the question, therefore, in either point of wages? Did all the taxes upon arti- of view, Ireland would not have the adcles of luxury increase the price of wages ? vantage over this country. The next arHe did not believe that Ireland was taxed gument went to show, that if this exporin a lighter degree than England. He tation were allowed, Ireland, from her sialso differed from the learned counsel in tuation, would have an advantage over us, considering the nominal price of wages as on account of her ports being more fa. the standard. In speaking of the wages vourable to fit out for the West Indies, given to a manufacturer, two considera- America, or almost any part of Europe, tions occurred: it was undoubtedly true and having the same means to obtain that agricultural labour was cheaper in Spanish wool. Now, upon the subject of Ireland; but in various branches of ma- Spanish wool, and also upon that of their nufactures, the wages were higher in Ire- own linen, how stood the fact? Had land than in England. The next and most they rivalled us in Spanish wool ; had they important question was that respecting not even exported their own linen through the capital. “Where capital was in such a Great Britain ? It appeared that, upon commanding state as it was in England, the subject of the Spanish wool, they bore it was much easier to continue apd sup- no resemblance to us, and that, as to their
own linen, we had exported more of it for tendency to the multiplication of sheep, them than they had been able to export must have a tendency to an increase of the for themselves. Did not these facts growth of wool.—The next question was, amount to an answer to that part of the Whether an increase of the price of wool objection to the exportation of wool to would contribute to the increase of the Ireland ? And how did this arise ? What article? The growth of wool must have was the reason why the linen of Ireland increased considerably within these ten came to London, for the purpose of being years. This would be manifest, from the exported again, under all the inconvenien- very cause which the manufacturers ascies that were inseparable from such a signed for its diminution. By the statecourse? What was it that brought such ment of these manufacturers, it appeared a trade here? What, but the capital and that, in 1792, they experienced the same the assortment that were peculiar to this scarcity as they do now, and the demand metropolis ? That capital and assortment was the same then as it is now. Was he vould create trade at any time: it was a not then justified in saying that the whole capital, and it was an assortment, not to of the wool was worked up at that period ? be equalled in any part of the globe. The His hon. friend said, No; that the then result of all this was, that there did not apparent scarcity arose from a partial deappear any probability, that Ireland could mand for clothing the French army. The rival us, in any considerable degree, in the whole export was only 150,0001. to foreign market. Now, with regard to the France; this exceeded the usual annual home market, which, in several points of export by no more than 60,0001., which view, was more important than the other ; upon the amount of 18,000,000.. was considering the subject with reference to next to nothing, and could not possibly skill, to capital, and assortment, the ad- have been the cause of the scarcity of vantage was clearly in favour of Great wool. What, then, was the conclusion Britain ; nor was the advantage we had | from all this? Why, that the whole was in the article of fuel, of slight import. worked up as it is at present.—The next The case being thus, there was not the point was, wliether an advance in the least injury to be apprehended from al- price of wool would increase the quantity lowing this exportation.--He now came of that article? He felt the probability to the question of the raw material. If of an advance in the price ; but that it lie had shown satisfactorily to the com. would not tend to injure the manufacture, mittee that the part of it which was likely while the advance was moderate, the mato go to Ireland, must, from the nature of nufacturers themselves admitted; and things, be limited, it followed, that the that an increase in the price had a tenevil resulting from it must be limited also: dency to increase the quantity was obvi. upon which he felt himself entitled to say, ous, since wool, like every other article, that there was, in the whole consideration must depend, in a great measure, on the of that part of the subject, nothing to encouragement that was given to its projustify a deviation from that liberal prin- duction.-But, to say no more upon that ciple of free intercourse which was the subject, he would ask the committee to basis of the union between the two coun- examine what was likely to be the effect tries. Upon wbat ground the produce of of the union in the view of the operation wool was to form an exception from all of capital? Would not the effect of a the other produce of the earth, or the redundancy of capital in Ireland be to traffic of the world, he was at a loss to improve the infant agriculture of that decide. It had been stated, that the country? Who could doubt that that growth of wool could not be increased; which happened to Scotland after the and particularly, that the growth of fine union, would happen to Ireland? Who wool was confined to a few spots, and to could doubt, that although, by this allowa particular breed of sheep. Now, it had ance of importation, we conveyed a part appeared in evidence, that in Hampshire, of our wealth into Ireland, yet that we by the introduction of the South Down should be amply repaid by the increase it sheep, the breed which produces the finest would create in the agriculture and comwool, had greatly increased. With respect merce of that country, without materially to the assertion, that the practice of affecting ours ? For these reasons he inclosure tended to diminish the quantity should support the resolution. of wool, the fallacy of it must be obvious Mr. H. Lascelles conceived, that a upon the first view; for whatever had a great advantage would result from the
union to England, but a much greater to , at some length on each resolution. He
, hof that Ireland would be sufficiently benefited vecessity for the measure, and that, above without this sacrifice, which we were all, the most essential ingredient to the called upon to make of our native pro- success of it was wanting; namely, the duce, by exporting it out of the country. | consent of the people of Ireland, without
Dr. Laurence considered this article as which all union would prove but a rope of by no means necessarily connected with sand. Besides, no proofs had been adthe question of union itself. It seemed duced why we should adopt this measure to have been given as a boon to Ireland, under the present circumstances. The and in this light it had been represented Scotch union was pretended to be the by Mr. Beresford, in the Irish House of grand foundation ; but there was not the Commons. It was stated by him, as an smallest similarity in fact. The commeracquisition of great importance, particu- cial arrangement was not made on any fixed larly as wool was dearer in Ireland than principle of liberal and equal union, but in England; and, according to that gen. merely protected one set of manufacturers tleman, Ireland was then able to cope against another. The learned gentleman with us in the market, and was to gain so then adverted to the peerage, which was much-additional advantage by this regula- the most anomalous system he had ever tion. Dr. L. contended, that the demand heard of. He ridiculed the idea of a perwas already greater than the supply, and son being at one and the same time a that this article would tend to diminish peer of the united kingdom, and sitting that supply still farther.
also in the House of Commons. He The Committee divided : Yeas, 133; might do an act as a member of the Noes, 58. The House resumed ; and the House of Commons, for which he could report was ordered to be received to not be tried by his peers ; but while in morrow.
fact he was a peer, he must be tried as a
commoner : whilst he was a peer only, he May 2. The Resolutions were was entitled to his peer's privileges; but ported, and read a first time. On the when he became a commoner, though he motion, that they be now read a second was still a peer in fact, yet he was deprive time,
ed of all his privileges as a peer. How • Dr. Laurence said, that as it was his were they to dispense with the standing opinion, that these resolutions, if adopted, orders of that House? By one of them, all would be pregnant with the greatest evils peers are interdicted from interferenc at to both countries, he thought it his duty elections. How, then, are these Irish peers, to give them his decided opposition. As when formed by creation into peers of the perpetual reference had been made to the whole united kingdom, to be elected union with Scotland, he wished to have members of the House of Commons withsome part of the articles which formed out interfering in such elections? As that union read. The 4th and two others the order now stood, it would be dangerbeing read accordingly, the learned mem- ous to couple them with any other candiber said, that from these articles it clearly date, for the interference of a peer acappeared there was a firm, equal, and tually set aside and made void the elechonourable union between this country tion. They seemed therefore to be peers and Scotland ; but that in the present and no peers at the same moment; an cuse it was altogether the reverse. He anomaly highly absurd on the first blush begged the House to consider that they of it. He then touched upon the constiwere now about to determine finally on a tution of the House of Commons, and the measure not of a common kind- not a
consequences to be apprehended from measure which, if found to be wrong, adding 100 members to it from another could be remedied by any act of that kingdom. He strenuously contended, House: it was not like a declaration of that a small body acting with a larger, in war, or a treaty of peace, which that circumstances similar to those in which House might sanction in one instance, or the two countries would be placed by the put an end to in the other. This was a union, unless they supported the meatreaty of that description, that, if once sures of government, could not protect ratified, no alteration in it could take effectually those by whom they were deplace. Here the learned member went legated. He wished the House to call to through the several articles, commenting mind the influence this might throw into
the hands of the Crown, which he at heart, were warm advocates of the prethought, with his late right honourable sent measure. and illustrious friend (Mr. Burke), had Mr. Ryder said, that the whole of the increased, was increasing, and ought to learned doctor's argument was directed to be diminished. He compared the pen prove that the union with Ireland was not sion lists of the two countries. In this, it a perfect union. This was admitted. amounted to 120,0001. ; but in Ireland, The question chiefly was, whether these besides the civil list of 104,000l. ; there imperfections were to be put in compawas also a pension list amounting to rison with the benefits that would result 110,000.; and all these, added to what from such a connexion? As to the measure was already at the disposal of the Crown, in a commercial view, whatever objections made him dread throwing any farther were made would easily be obviated by weight into a scale which preponderated the wisdom of the imperial parliament: too much to the side of influence already, With regard to the principal of finance The learned member also expressed his it was likely to be highly advantageous apprehensions for the order of the House, to the two countries. The income and even under the good government and au- expenditure of both would be more acthority of so excellent a chairman as the curately ascertained, and the equal propresent Speaker; hinted at a recent and portions more easily defined. other duels, which were too common; and rallel between the Irish and Scottish parviewed the addition of members from that liaments was inapplicable. The peers country as contrary to the principles of were differently constituted. There were the constitution of this House of Com- persons who had been honoured with Irish mons, which had wisely limited its num- titles, who had not the smallest connexion ber to 558, as the best adapted for all with the country; they had been invested parliamentary purposes, and particularly with those distinctions as a mark of royal for a deliberative assembly. The learned favour for eminent services; and surely gentleman then took an extensive view of it would be unjust lo deprive such men of the state of the Irish parliament at the the privilege of serving their country in time it consented to the union ; which, he that House. The salutary effects of the said, rendered it unfit to be the organ of union would very soon be experienced on the wishes of the people. The present both sides of the water. measure could be productive of no advan. Mr. Bankes said, it was putting the tage to this country; but would spread question to the fairest issue possible, to
distraction, and division determine whether it would be for the adthroughout Ireland. He heartily prayed vantage of the empire to decline these Almighty God that it might never pass: propositions, or to accept them with all but if it should unfortunately be adopted, their imperfections on their heads. The he would as heartily pray, that that incidental questions respecting commerce, Being, who called order out of confusion, revenue, and representation, were in harmony out of discord, and light out of themselves, no doubt, of considerable darkness, who, from jarring elements, magnitude : but at the same time of small created the fair fabric of the universe, moment, when compared with those rewould avert the evils which the union was spective situations which made it improlikely to bring down upon the British em- per for Ireland to coalesce with us, and for pire, and turn to its prosperity what was us to coalescewith Ireland. That countrywas calculated for its ruin.
inhabited by two distinct classes of people, Mr. Morrit said, that the learned gen- hating and hated by each other. There tleman had used his utmost endeavours to prevailed amongst them a want of cultidissuade the House from the measure ; (vation, a degraded peasantry, a frequency but all the arguments which he had ad- of horrid murders, and scenes of confusion vanced tended only to corroborate more disorder, and rebellion. We should, iu strongly the necessity and wisdom of the his opinion, have some security to be free union. The Scotch union had experi- from the unfortunate cause of those calaenced much opposition when first pro- mities, before we made one cause with posed; but those who had been reviled them. The mass of the people of that on the occasion, had lived to receive the country had claims which they would never thanks of their countrymen for such forget, upon every acre of land forfeited proofs of uncommon sagacity. Those by the revolts and frequent rebellions of who had the real interest of both countries their ancestors. The rigour of the laws (VOL. XXXV.)
against the Roman Catholics had been, that the mass of the people was not always gradually relaxed, without producing any ready to advance and renew its claims sensible or practical effects upon their dis- whenever an opportunity offered. Every position. In fact, so much had the coer- thing proved that they were a very dancive system subsided, that the Roman gerous set; at present our intercourse Catholics were already in possession of with them was a slight one; but by a every privilege they had to claim, except legislative union we should commit ourthe right of sitting in parliament, and an selves altogether, and could not perhaps exclusion from certain considerable offices afterwards get rid of them. What was in the state, not more in number than from the grierance of which Ireland had so thirty to forty. From their general situa- long complained? It complained of tion in life, the privilege of sitting in par. having a parliament which was always liament could be of no great consequence acted upon by an English faction. Surely, to the bulk of the Roman Catholics; but then it would be no remedy for such a in the hands of crafty and designing men, grievance to put that nation under the it always offered the means of stirring immediate control of that very faction them up to sedition; and unhappily these whose influence it deprecated. A noble means had seldom been employed in vain. lord, whose talents, firmness, and elo- It was not his business now to give any quence, had made him the object of just opinion on the methods which might admiration (he meant the lord chancellor more properly be employed, if indeed any of Ireland), had delivered a memorable could be effectual, to conciliate these speech upon the subject, in which he did people; but what they called eman- not disguise his disgust at, and expressed cipation, was an indulgence which he something bordering on a great contempt could by no means recommend. Before, of the proceedings of the Irish parliament. we were called upon to unite ourselves That parliament, his lordship said, could with Ireland, it would be highly necessary offer no guarantee for the security of the for that kingdom to put itself in a state state : and he instanced the regency to show of internal tranquillity; but it did not ap- how little safety there was in a legislature pear that the Irish parliamenthad taken any so constructed. In fact, the jealousy of steps for that purpose. The Irish members that parliament had been strongly exhiwould come here, in the first instance, on bited in what was called the final arrangeterms of equality in point of qualifications ment of 1782: it broke out again in the and every other respect, as the represen- Irish propositions in 1785; and became tatives of Great Britain ; and would take more manifest in the question of the rethe usual oaths of allegiance and abjura- gency, when the empire was liable to be tion, which must operate as an exclusion placed in the anomalous situation of of Roman Catholic members. So far no having a regent of both kingdoms, under advantage was granted to that description limitations in the one, and totally unlimited of persons; nor did he see how the as to the other. That, however, was a scheme could tend to remove the fears very singular case, and, had the great seal which the Irish Protestants were known to been put to the bill in this country, might entertain of their Roman Catholic bre have soon been accommodated. But a thren. But it was stated, that the union more serious difficulty arose two years would promote the commerce and agri- ago, fomented by the political opinions of culture of the country, and by that means designing men, and finally terminating in materially improve the condition of the peo- a religious war. It was true that few ple. If this was a benefit, he would ask, persons of property took any part in that did the Roman Catholics ask it, or were unfortunate rebellion; and so far from its they even willing to receive it when volunta- being assisted by the respectable Roman rily offered? There was no manifestation of Catholics, many pikes fell from the hands any such disposition on their part, nor did of the rebels by the fire of the militia and the majority of them look to any thing so yeomanry of that persuasion. But, viewmuch as the revival of their old preten- ing the cause of that rebellion in all its sions. It was in vain to judge by a mo. bearings, he would, ask whether, if this mentary calm. Never, from the days when union bad been in force at that time, it the Roman people retired to the sacred would have prevented it?
Would it mountain, to the time when the Irish vo- afford us any security, that, if the French lunteers mustered their force in Dublin, could land a considerable force in that was it proved by any tranquil suspension, country, they would not be joined by