[294 stance of its publication could only be con- sent out all over the country, could it be sidered as a matter of inadvertence. Had expected, that observations would not be it not been so published, it would never made as to what the character of parliahave attracted any notice, or called forth ment collectively was, as well as with reany particular expression of feeling. In ference to the conduct of any particular short, it never would have been mentioned. members of that body? They could not And this being the true state of the case expect, that their proceedings would always it appearing, that the publication was the be spoken of in terms of approbation, and effect of inadvertence-the right hon. ba- never in those of disapprobation. It would ronet would perhaps feel, that having call- be a little too much if the gentlemen of ed the attention of the House to the sub- the opposition were to propose, that they ject, enough had been done. It would should be recognised as that sacred body have been a different thing if it were found in the constitution who could not by posnot to have been an inadvertent act; but sibility be assailed with reproach-who since all intention to sanction the objec- were not open to any possible suspicion tionable parts of the address was disavow- or imputation of not acting on all occaed, the right hon. baronet might perhaps sions for the general benefit of the country. be inclined to think, that, considering the The right hon. baronet undoubtedly different circumstances, it was not a case found in this address very strong obserin which the privileges of the House called vations on the conduct of the opposition; for any farther proceeding. He would but he could not avoid saying, that the submit to the right hon. baronet, whether right hon. baronet did not read the adhe did not now seem to be taking up rather dress in a fair manner, He treated it as a narrower line, with respect to freedom of if all the evils of the present day were asdiscussion in the country, than ought to cribed to the conduct of the opposition. be adopted. Though it was the last But the fact was, the inflamed state of species of warfare in which he should wish the public mind was attributed to three to be engaged, yet it would, he thought, causes-whether well or ill founded he be most unjust if one side of the House would not stop to inquire. They were, was to be excluded from the attacks of first, the speeches of opposition; secondly, calumny, while individuals on the other blasphemous and seditious publications; side-however patient in their nature and lastly, the petition that emanated were to lie quietly on their backs, and from the Common Council of the city of bear every species of contumely without London. If they were to call the learned complaining. But though, perhaps, it body who sanctioned the address to the would be convenient to gentlemen on his bar, he did not conceive, that it would side of the House, and to himself indivi- produce any good practical result. And dually-who no longer ago than the night here he must observe, that it was too before last was mentioned by name in a much for the right hon. baronet to say, petition laid on their table-if matters of because those individuals were pastors, this kind were attended to (and he knew that therefore they should lay down all if he pursued such a course he should public functions, and abstain from offerpursue it under a very high sanction, ing any opinion on what was passing, with since it was approved of by the right hon. respect to the peace and tranquillity of the baronet), still he did not think, that it country; and more especially on the prewould do either side of the House any valence of infidelity. If the right hon. good in the eyes of their constituents, if baronet laid it down as a principle of the they took up this question, and said, that House, that all publications of this nature the speeches and the public conduct of ought to be brought under their consideramembers of parliament should not be tion, he (Lord C.) would not have far to animadverted on out of doors, if the observa- go, in order to produce, to-morrow, to tions made use of exceeded the bounds the right hon. baronet, two or three of fair and temperate discussion. The specimens of addresses, in which he himmere circumstance of their conniving at self, the minister of the Crown, and those the publication of their debates-a prac- members of parliament who supported tice which was contrary to their standing them, were charged with motives the most orders, but which, if not a part of the base, corruption the most notorious, the constitution, was almost essential to it- greatest abandonment of their public rendered it impossible to prevent free ani-duty, and the most flagrant crimes against madversion. When their debates were the interests of the country. He should 295] HOUSE OF COMMONS, only offer what he conceived to be a very the address so characterizing the debates to have been most graciously received. The noble lord (Sidmouth) had desired an apology to be made for the occurrence; he had caused it to be stated, that he was sorry it had taken place. If this sort of apology were to justify the House in passing over a breach of privilege of this nature, he knew not why they should not pass over any other breach of privilege, provided an apology was tendered. He admitted the good sense of some of the noble lord's observations. He agreed with him when he said, that they ought not to watch over their privileges with so much severity as to prevent the people from animadverting on the proceedings of the House; because, between the members of that House and those whom they represented, there should be a free communication of sentiment, and the In this instance, press was the best medium for keeping up that communication. the act complained of was not committed by any portion of their constituents, but by a minister of the Crown, and therefore it was the more important that it should not be passed over in silence. They all knew, that many instances had occurred of late years where the House visited, perhaps with too much severity, animadversions on their proceedings which Mr. Scarlett said, he would not have assumed a popular character; and he troubled the House with any observations conceived it was not acting equitably to on this occasion, if it had not been for refrain from exercising the authority which what had fallen from the noble lord. He was vested in them against the Crown, had very ingenuously put forward as the and on all occasions to enforce it against offender in this case, the unhappy Mode- the people. If it were an attack on an rator who signed the address. That indi-individual member, it would be well for be a vidual might very respectable person; him to exercise a sound discretion, before and if it had been with him, that the selec- he determined to submit a complaint to tion of the address for publication had the House; but it was no such thing. rested, the subject would, perhaps, have It was a general attack on those who were been unworthy of being brought before designated as an "Opposition." Did his the House; but what gave a sting to this majesty know of an opposition in that address was, that it found its way into House? Did ministers state to his majesty, the Gazette, a publication, under the im- that there were a body of men in parliamediate sanction of administration,and was ment who made "violent and unconstistated to have been most graciously receiv- tutional speeches?" If that were known ed by the Crown, One of the most im--if the fact could be brought forward, portant parts of the constitution of the House of Commons was, that the influence of his majesty's name, or the knowledge of his opinion, should have no effect in guiding their decisions; and for any man to state to his majesty any part of the debates of that House, and much more to characterize them, was highly unconstitutional. If there could be a greater breach of privilege than this, it was, that a minister of the Crown publicly stated and satisfactorily proved, it would be matter of impeachment rather than breach of privilege. He did not think the matter could be thus passed over. The apology would be soon forgotten, but the address would still remain on the pages of the Gazette. If the noble lord would point out some means by which the apology could be placed on the Journals of the House, he would be satisfied: but he could not suffer the business to drop, as the noble lord had suggested. They were placed in this situation-an attack had been made in the Gazette on the speeches of members of that House, and all the satisfaction they received was, a declaration, that ministers were sorry for it. But they might do the same thing to-morrow, if some efficient step were not resorted to, and again make the same declaration of regret. Were they to abandon the matter altogether, because a minister offered an apology, and acknowledged, that the proceeding was wrong? He hoped, it would not be thought, that he meant to press the business invidiously against any individual. If the motion would have the effect of bringing this gentleman up to town from Scotland, he should be sorry for it; because he appeared to him to be a very ignorant man. Certainly he knew very little of what passed in that House. The sting was not in the paper which the reverend gentleman had signed, but in the use that had been made of it, and the sanction it appeared to have received from his majesty's government. Under these circumstances, he submitted, that the right hon. baronet could not withdraw his proposition, unless some means were devised to express the sense of the House on the subject. Mr. Bathurst said, that the publication of the address arose entirely from inadvertence, and as soon as possible an apology was made for inserting it in the Gazette. The right hon. baronet should, in justice, have quoted the latter part of his (Mr. B's) speech on the first night of the session. He then stated, that the address appeared merely through inadvertence, and without the sanction of his majesty's ministers On the ground of the circumstance having been occasioned by inadvertence, and on that ground alone, he conceived the House ought to pass it over. Sir J. Newport assured the right hon. gentleman, that the noise which prevailed on the night he alluded to, was so great as to prevent him from hearing the whole of his explanation. Perhaps an entry to the following effect would meet the wishes of his learned friend:-After stating the paper to contain a breach of privilege, it might be added, "And it having been stated to the House, on the part of the secretary of state for the home department, that the paper was considered by him to be reprehensible, and that it got into the Gazette by mistake, it does not appear, that the House proceeded further, except to place this disavowal on their journals." Lord Castlereagh suggested, that the debate should be adjourned till to-morrow, in order to give the right hon. baronet an opportunity to adopt a proper form of words. Mr. Gordon observed, that it ought to be recollected, that the insertion of the address in the Gazette was not the only mischief. It had thence been copied into the country papers, so that the people at large were induced to believe, that the sentiments which it contained, had been graciously received by his majesty. He was the last man to think of visiting, with severe punishment, any carsasins such as those in question; but, when the gentlemen opposite seemed disposed to exercise, to their extent, all the privileges of the Crown, it was necessary to provide an adequate counteraction by the firm maintenance of the privileges of that House. The debate was then adjourned to tomorrow. REVENUE ACCOUNTS.] Mr. Maberly rose, in consequence of the notice he had given, to move for certain papers relative to the Revenue. The subject which he was about to bring under the consideration of the House, was one of primary importance;-it was a subject closely interwoven with the prosperity of the country; and by a due attention to which, they could alone hope to alleviate the distresses of the people. The papers he meant to move for were seven. He should call for the production, not only of the amount of revenues for the current but the past year, and also for an account of the management of the public expenditure and a variety of other papers connected with the financial state of the country. To the amount of the expenses of collecting the revenue he should particularly call the attention of the House. The expenditure was enormous beyond all calculation. In the year 1792, the expenditure was 7,800,000l. including the amount of collecting the revenue. What was the expenditure now? It was, including the amount of collecting the revenue, for the army, navy, ordnance and miscellaneous services, no less than 26,000,0007. making a difference in the expenditure of the government between the year 1792 and the present time of somewhere about 18 millions, and that occurring within twenty years. It was time now, in the sixth or seventh year of peace, to anticipate something like a perinanent arrangement of the public expenditure, and, above all, an improved system of finance. This, indeed, had been promised. Instead of which, what had been the course pursued respecting the Sinking Fund? Instead of being preserved and applied for the reduction of the debt it had been used for the resources of the current year; and in this state, instead of bearing in the amount any affinity to its nominal value of 17,000,000l. the real bond fide value of the existing Sinking Fund was only 2,000,000l. and that was the sole amount in reality applicable to meet a debt of nearly 900 millions. This amount of debt was frightful, and showed a yearly increase of about twenty millions, since the period to which he had at first adverted-two millions being the only real fund available to the reduction of this enormous debt. It was during a time of peace, that the country should be called upon to look at this state of things; for, under such circumstances, to contemplate a state of war was most appalling. No time ought to be lost in endeavouring to place the finances of the country upon as solid a basis as the nature of the case admitted. There were, of course, great difficulties in reducing to a clear and intelligible system such complicated matters; but investigation was now imperatively neces sary. It was his intention, upon a future day, to bring under the consideration of the House the state of the Sinking Fund, for the purpose of reducing its system and management to a simpler and clearer detail than that which it admitted at present. He meant to strip it of all its nominal and shadowy character, and to place it at once before the public in the only way in which it ought to stand namely, in the actual and fair real amount which alone it possessed. A Sinking Fund, when properly understood, could only consist of the excess of revenue over and above the whole excess of the public expenditure. It was quite a delusion for the right hon. gentleman opposite to pretend to the public that they had a Sinking Fund amounting to the nominal value of 17,000,000l. and then to bolster up this disingenuous device by borrowing 12 millions out of this nominal fund of 17,000,000l. and to keep up, by Exchequer Bills, the operation of this delusion. Nothing could be worse policy than to persevere in such a course, instead of at once laying before the country the real sum upon which it had to depend for the reduction of the national debt. From his majesty's late speech, it did not distinctly appear, what would be the reduction of the general expenditure for the year. The only reduction hinted at was in the military expenditure. But, with respect to that expenditure, he must complain retrospectively of the course which had been taken by the right hon. gentleman opposite. Two years ago, when that right hon. gentleman anticipated the amount which would be required for the army, navy, and ordnance, he estimated it at 17,000,000l. instead of which it ultimately proved to be 19,000,000/.-that was, an excess of 2,000,0001. over and above the right hon. gentleman's promise to the country. This was a bad mode of estimating the public expenditure-it went to destroy public confidence, and to make the people come forward, not for any reduction of the public expenditure, for that they saw was little attended to, but for a direct reduction of taxation. In the latter alone could they, under such circumstances, repose any hope of redress of grievances. To leave out this alternative to the people was the worst policy which the right hon. gentleman could pursue in the present state of the finances of the country. The agriculturist must at once see in what consisted a portion of his present distress: looking at the price of grain in 1790, it was nearly the same as at present; but the large increase of direct and indirect taxation bore directly upon the farmer; and connected with the larger increase since 1790 of the price of labour, the poor-rates, &c. furuished him with a clue to the causes of his present distressed state. For the purpose of bringing the subject of taxation before the House, he meant to move for an account of the duties upon Houses and windows, in order, after ascertaining the amount, to move (if it should appear to him expedient) for a reduction of these taxes. The country could not possibly go on without retrenchment, and the report of the committee of Finance ought to be adopted and acted upon systematically. He thought, that by adhering to the terms of that report, a saving of 2,000,0007. might be effected for the year 1821. There was another subject to which he thought it very material to call the atten tion of the House; namely, the expense of collecting the revenue. Would it be believed, that this alone amounted to the enormous sum of between four and five millions, and showed a rate of per centage upon the collection, of no less than 8. 1s. 9d. upon the aggregate of the whole? In Ireland it was still worse-it was moustrous for on the four millions of revenue collected in that country, the expense of collection amounted to 21 per cent. The aggregate amount of collection upon the whole revenue was, he repeated, above 81. out of every 1001. for the pocket of the collector, and out of that of the public. He was firmly persuaded, that by a more economical system, a saving of one million might be effected in the collection of the miscellaneous and other services-to this, add the saving of two millions which he had already noticed, and both together would amount to 3,000,000l. in the ensuing year. Unless this recommendation was attended to, he knew not what the country had to expect from his majesty's government. It was to elicit an explanation from the right hon. gentleman opposite, that he now meant to move for certain papers. He called for them at this early period of the session, and before the supplies were moved, to enable the House to judge of the financial state of the country, at a time when they might, if they pleased, withhold the supplies, unless the explanations were satisfactory. There was also the further advantage in calling for the papers now, of having them in time for a full understanding upon the subject, before the business part of the session passed away. He concluded, by moving, for an account of the deficiency of the Consolidated Fund on the 5th January, 1821, together with an account of the manner in which the same was made good." The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, that he saw no objection to the production of the accounts moved for by the hon. gentleman or to the inquiries which he seemed disposed to connect with these documents. As there would be other opportunities of considering this subject, it was unnecessary for him now to anticipate discussion, by entering into any explanation in detail; he should therefore reserve his observations until the accounts were regularly before the House. He might however, take the present opportunity of announcing, that the whole ex penditure for the supplies of the present year would be met by the revenue without any new loan. The country, he thought, had arrived at a period, when it might bid adieu either to loans or new taxes for many years. In the way in which he contemplated the financial state of the country, he could by no means concur in the discouraging prospect held out by the hon. gentleman. On the contrary, he had the strongest reasons to expect the country would annually have the benefit of a surplus of revenue going to a diminution of the national debt. This was among the improving views which he took of the state of the country. With respect to the Sinking Fund, he could not consider it as placed in the dilapidated state which had been described by the hon. gentleman; for he fully believed, that the result of the present year would show the Sinking Fund bearing away as large a proportion of the debt as it did in 1792. He wished to take that opportunity of explaining one circumstance upon which a mistake appeared in some quarters to prevail: it related to the state of the trade of the country. It appeared, from the accounts laid before parliament, that trade became depressed towards the close of the former year, and that consequently the revenue became diminished. But it might be consolatory to the House to know, that the present actual state of trade developed a considerable improvement. The account of the exports had only at present been made up for the three great ports, viz-London, Liverpool, and Hull. The exports of British and Irish produce from these ports, for the halfyear ending on the 5th Jan. 1821, exceeded the corresponding half-year of the preceding year by 3 millions and a-half. The exports for the one year amounted, within that time, to about 13 millions and three quarters, and in the other to about 16 millions and a-half-making, on the whole, the increase 3 millions and a-half which he had mentioned. Sir John Newport said, he was in hopes, that the right hon. gentleman would have noticed some prospect of improving the net produce of the revenue, by a considerable diminution in the enormous expense of collecting it, upon which, most properly, great stress had been laid. He lamented the price of collection in Ireland, in particular, where the enormous increase of taxation, instead of being attended by a comparative reduction in the rate of |