that purpose, being a fifth part of the force employed on foreign stations; and he would appeal to his hon. friend, the gallant general opposite, or to any other military man in the House, whether that was not sufficient. The home service might be reduced in the proportion mentioned by his hon. friend, and yet leave 10,000 for reliefs above the establishment of 1792. The cavalry and guards were not available for reliefs; their present establishment exceeded that of 1792 by 8,000 men. They were by far the most expensive description of force; and a reduction of 8,000 would enable them to increase the troops available for the colonial service by four thousand, and yet a considerable saving would be effected. The right hon. secretary for Ireland had contended for the necessity of the present establishment in Ireland; but during the war, when Buonaparté was at the height of his power, that country was left with only 10 or 12,000; and yet, forsooth, in a time of peace, with a large yeomanry establishment, it was contended that 20,000 were absolutely necessary. It was not a large establishment that ought to be looked to, but the comfort, security, tranquillity, wealth, peace, and repose of the people. Referring to the observation of his gallant friend, as to the affairs of Naples, if any force were required from this country in that quarter, he trusted it would be an efficient naval squadron.

Mr. Huskisson insisted, that his noble friend, when he opened the estimates, had stated, that reductions were made to the amount of 707,000. He assured the committee that the vote of this year was less by 707,000l. than that of last year. The reduction spoken of by the other side of 10,000 men, would not leave a sufficient force for furnishing reliefs to the foreign stations, and doing the home duty. He maintained, that this country had still within itself resources which would furnish the means of supporting a war, if it were called on to defend its honour or its independence by an appeal to arms; and denied that the trade of the country was in that depressed condition which many persons imagined. The iron trade and the cotton trade, he contended, were improving.

Mr. Maberly said, that it was not his intention to delay the committee by any lengthened observation, but, having been so personally alluded to by the noble lord,

he could not avoid making a few remarks. The noble lord had talked of his motion for the reduction of taxes, as if it were an attempt to delude the people. Did the division on that occasion look as if it were so considered? The noble lord had said that he was ready to go into a committee. He accepted the challenge; and if the noble lord consented to the committee, would show him that millions could be saved. Would it be said that no saving could be made in the collection of the revenue, which was now done at 8 per cent? In Ireland, it was 21 per cent, when the revenue was not much more than 4,000,000l. When he proposed, that this collection should be made at a cheaper rate, was it to be endured that it should be called a delusion on the people? He would tell the noble lord, that if the committee were gone into, the savings which he had suggested, aye and more, might be made. He did not propose that they should arise from pitiful and paltry reductions of clerks' salaries. He did not propose any savings from a reduction of the pay of the army. It was not the army, but the things appertaining to the army, that caused the expense. He had said that four millions might be saved; he did not mean to press the saving of that particular sum; but he would prove in the committee, that a direct saving of 2,000,000l. might be made in the collection of the revenue. He had been called upon to show what particular savings might be made. He would mention one case. It was known that during the war it had been found necessary to keep up a storekeeper-general's department. It might be asked, was it necessary to keep up that estab lishment at this moment? As a proof of that necessity he should mention one fact. By the returns made to the House it appeared, that the whole value of what was stored last year was 114,000l.; on which an expense of 52,000l. had been incurred

just 45 per cent upon the whole. But this was not all: there were duplicates of those offices in all the colonies abroad where we had ordnance officers, and where the whole thing might be done without one additional shilling of expense. We had storekeepers in Canada, Nova Scotia, Gibraltar, the Mauritius, and several other colonies. He mentioned these circumstances to show that savings might be made; but the principle adopted on the other side seemed to be this that the

storekeeper-general's department having once been established must be kept up. Now, he would contend, that a saving of the whole ought to be made, at a time when the reduction of every shilling was of importance to the people.

The cries of" Question" now became loud, and strangers were ordered to withdraw. The gallery continued closed from half past 12 till 3 o'clock. During the exclusion of strangers, several divisions took place, each of which was preceded by warm discussions. The first division was on colonel Davies' motion, That the Chairman report progress: Ayes, 95; Noes, 216. A division then took place on a motion for adjournment: Ayes, 92; Noes, 209. Three other divisions followed on similar motions, on which the numbers were as follows: Ayes, 62; Noes, 220. Ayes, 60; Noes, 212; Ayes, 48; Noes,

158.

On the motion of Mr. Gordon, that the second Report of the Finance Committee should be read, the Committee divided: Ayes, 45; Noes, 162. Another division took place on a motion that the chairman should report progress: Ayes, 47; Noes, 164. At twenty minutes past three, strangers, after an exclusion of between three and four hours, were again admitted to the gallery. Ministers were at that time sitting on the opposition benches, their places being occupied by their opponents.-Mr. Hume moved, that the act of William and Mary, for disbanding the army, be read; upon which the committee divided: Ayes, 43; Noes, 144. A ninth division took place on the question, that the Chairman report progress: Ayes, 43; Noes, 140. A tenth division took place on the same motion: Ayes, 38; Noes, 145. At four o'clock, fresh candles having been brought in, Mr. Lambton moved, that they should be excluded. On this the committee divided: Ayes, 38; Noes, 146. Lord Castlereagh then observed, that considering the lateness of the hour, he would not press the question further, as the estimates could not be got through in any reasonable time. The chairman then reported progress, and obtained leave to sit again; and at five in the morning the House adjourned.

List of the Minority on the last Division.
Bury, visc.
Calvert, Charles
Creevey, Thos.

Barratt, S. M. Bennet, H. G. Blake, sir F.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Wednesday, March 14.

VAGRANT LAWS.] Mr. Chetwynd rose pursuant to the notice which he had given respecting the Vagrant Laws. The subject, he observed, was of very considerable importance, whether considered in a moral or pecuniary point of view. It was notorious that the county rates had of late years increased to a very great extent in every part of the kingdom, and it was equally notorious that the great burthen of them fell upon the already distressed agriculturists; for, by several decisions in the courts of law, it seemed now settled, that money lent on interest on mortgage, or vested in the funds, was not liable to poor or county rates. Among other items by which the latter had been considerably increased, was that of the passing and maintaining of vagrants. To show how this branch had increased, he would mention only one fact. In the very able work on Indigence, published by that enlightened and accurate magistrate, the late Mr. Colquhoun, it appeared that the expense incurred for passing vagrants in the year 1806 was 15,000Z.; but by a return made to the House, it would appear that in 1820, that expense was increased to 58,605.; and if all the collateral expenses were included, he did not doubt that they would be little short of 100,000l. The spirit of our Poor Laws never was, that the idle and sturdy should be supported; but that work should be found, if possible, for those who were able and willing to work, and who could not procure it by ordinary exertions. At present, the country was over-run with paupers not persons who were really distressed, but by idle vagrants, who did not wish to work, and who made a sub

frequently the matter had occupied the attention of the legislature. He observed, that by a statute of Henry 8th, vagrancy, for the third offence, was made liable to be punished with death; but this had never been acted upon. The statute which went into a general regulation of vagrants was the 17th Geo. 2nd, cap. 5. Seventy-seven years had elapsed since that statute passed, and many of its provisions were ill-adapted to the present state of society. That statute was divided into three heads. The first related to rewards given for the apprehension of vagrants: the second, to the mode of passing them to their settlements; and the third, to appeals respecting such settlements. He would not go into detail on this act, but would merely observe, that lord Kenyon and Mr. Justice Ashurst had declared that it had been most inaccurately drawn up, and was very difficult to be understood. When such men declared that they could with difficulty understand the meaning of that act, was it not natural to suppose that it must be found still more difficult by magistrates in the country, who were nevertheless daily called to act upon it? The hon. member here went into a brief examination of the act, and contended that some of its provisions were bad, and others so extremely loosely drawn up as to lose their intended object. He particularly condemned the practice of giving any rewards for the apprehension of vagrants, which, he observed, had led to great abuses. As a proof of this, he read an extract from the second report of the committee on the police of the metropolis. In that report it was stated that many instances were known of constables having bribed persons to commit acts of vagrancy, in order to get the reward for apprehending them. passing of vagrants to their settle-, ments, was, he observed, as at present carried on, open to great frauds frequently between the constable and the vagrant. They were often passed by stage-coaches or waggons, by which the constable saved the money which he should have given them. He would mention one instance of this:- A constable in a parish the next in Staffordshire out of the town of Birmingham, from which it was necessary to pass several hundred paupers, particularly Irish poor, in the course of the year, was allowed 1. 10s. for the expense of passing

sistence by their vagrancy. A great many poor shopkeepers who were reduced very low, became pedlars, and were virtually vagrants, as they travelled without a license; but these poor people were, for the most part, driven to this by their necessities. Though many of them swelled the list of vagrants, yet it was not of that description he complained. There was another class who went into the country under pretence of looking for work, which they sought for in places where they knew it was not to be found. Large parties of these got together in lodging houses, and places of the very worst description, from whence they sallied forth every morning to seek for opportunities of theft, and returned again at night to share the plunder of the day. As a last resource they committed an act of vagrancy, and were passed on to such places as they described to be their settlement. They were thus supported for a time without any employment whatever. After some time they swore to another place as their settlement, to which they were passed in like manner, and thus they were always travelling about the kingdom. He could mention cases where it was proved that individuals thus swore to 18 or 20 settlements at different periods. These were abuses of the system which it would be the object of his motion to endeavour to remedy. In order to induce the House to consent to it, it would be necessary for him to prove three propositions. The first was, that the present vagrant laws were vague and inconsistent, and that great inconvenience had arisen in consequence: secondly, that it was necessary that those laws should be examined and considered, with a view to their consolidation and amendment; and thirdly, that a select committee ought to be appointed for such purpose. With respect to the first of these, he should observe, that there were not less than 48 statutes on our books on the subject of vagrancy. The first of these was enacted as early as the 5th of Edward 3rd, but the first which was strictly acted upon was the 19th of Henry 7th. By that act, not only were vagrants made liable to punishments, but it was ordered that persons who relieved them should also be punished. The hon. member here enumerated several other statutes in chronological order which were passed at different times on this subject, for the purpose of showing how VOL. IV.

4 I

each; but he contracted with the Manchester waggoner, to take them for 5s. each, by which he defrauded the public of 25s. on each pauper. It was unnecessary to say that the means of committing such frauds ought to be removed. A pauper, who was passed from London to York, would, if he had a family, have an allowance of 17. 18s. per week; and yet a poor labourer was obliged to toil from one end of the week to the other, without being able to earn more than 12s. or 15s. -The hon. member then pointed out the deficiency of the law on the subject of appeals. No parish, he observed, had so much reason to complain on this head as the parish of Stepney. It was stated by an hon. and learned member of that House, in the Court of King's-bench, in Hilary term 1813, in moving for a criminal information against a magistrate for Cheshire, for removing a vagrant improperly, that the parish of Stepney had had no less than 25 removals of a similar kind made to that parish in the preceding year, under an erroneous idea which prevailed, that all persons born on the high seas belonged to Stepney. The hon. member then contended, that, under all the circumstances, the system was one which ought to undergo revision. He concluded by moving, "That a Select Committee be appointed to take into consideration the existing Laws relating to Vagrants."

Mr. Harbord seconded the motion. As a proof of the deficiency of the present law, he mentioned that in the parish of St. George, Hanover-square, there were not less than 18 officers for the purpose of detecting vagrants, and in the last year they apprehended only 23, while 6 officers belonging to the Mendicity Society, who had other parishes besides that to look to, had apprehended in that parish alone, 273 vagrants in the last year.

The motion was agreed to, and a committee appointed.

AUSTRIAN LOAN.] Mr. Robert Smith (Bucks) rose to make his promised motion. In stating his reasons for proposing to institute an inquiry into our claims upon Austria, the hon. member spoke to the following effect:-I shall, in the first instance, recall to your memory, that in 1794, application was made by the court of Vienna, to the monied interest of this country, to raise a loan for the purpose f carrying on the war, and that the

negotiation failed, Mr. Boyd not being able to raise sixpence upon the security he offered. A message then was brought down to this House by Mr. Pitt; and, in answer, an address was presented to his majesty, enabling him, under proper conditions, to guaranty the loan to be raised by the emperor. In consequence of this, on the 4th of May following, a convention was signed at Vienna, between his majesty and the emperor, by which the sum of 4,600,000l. was advanced, his imperial majesty solemnly pledging himself to discharge regularly the payments which might become due in consequence of the said loan, so that these payments might never fall as a burthen on the finances of Great Britain, pledging as a positive security the revenue of all his hereditary dominions, and, as a collateral one, an obligation on the bank of Vienna for the repayment of 400l. for every 3007. that might be advanced, with also the additional privilege of being able to sue the emperor according to the established forms of his own courts of justice. On the 29th of April, 1797, a second message was brought down to this House, and a new loan of 1,620,000l. was again granted, under similar security. The House must be already aware, that from the 1st of May, 1797, down to the present day, not a single penny, principal or interest, has been paid by the Austrian government; that no communication has been made to parliament on the subject; that the dividends due on the money thus raised are paid by the people of this country; and that the only article in the treaty so solemnly entered into which has not been violated is the valuable present of the Vienna obligation notes, which are carefully locked up in a tin-box at the Bank of England, and constitute, I understand, one of the principal lions shown to the curious who visit that very interesting building. The House is also aware that these loans, together with the dividends and other charges upon them, amount totheenormous sum of 17,400,000; and it is here fair to add, that at the liberal suggestion of the right hon. gentleman opposite, the calculation was made at simply 5 per cent interest, and not at compound interest, as would have been, perhaps, most fair; so that the loss to this country is not only the interest of the original loans, but also the interest of the seventeen millions; making, altother, an annual loss of more than one