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HOUSE OF COMMONS.

-Conimutution of Tythes in Ircland. (908 evil in the course of thirty years, for which the slightest intention to impute any blame the charter was granted. On all these to a gentleman, who, by the anxiety grounds, be was decidedly of opinion that which he uniformly manifested for the a question ought to be proposed to the public service, was entitled to the complete Judges respecting the law of the case. confidence of the house and of the coun

The house then divided upon lord Gren- try.—Mr. Whitbread was proceeding to ville's motion :

express the regret which he felt at learning Contents 16; Proxies 17-33 the probability that no report from the FiNot-contents 42; Proxies 52—9+ nance Committee would be presented duMajority -61 ring the present session, when he was called

to order by the Speaker, who observed, that there was no question before the

house. Thursday, June 16.

[COMMUTATION OF TYTHES IN IRELAND. [Finaxce Committee.] Mr. Whitbread Mr. M. Fitzgerald, (knight of Kerry) in rose for the purpose of putting a question what he was about to say, disclaimed all idea to an hon. gent. in his eye, the answer to of any wish to embarrass government. In which appeared to him necessary for the at all touching on this subject, he was anxisatisfaction of the public. As the session ous chiefly for two things; first, that miniswas drawing to a close, it was desirable ters should not suppose, from the paucity of to ascertain, whether or not the house and petitions, that the question was not one of the country were to expect a report from very general interest in Ireland, or which the committee, at the head of which that they were on that account entitled to unhon. gent. so worthily presided. Rumours dervalue; secondly, he was anxious to were afloat, that a Report of a very import- prevent the people of Ireland from feeling ant nature had been decided upon in the any thing like distrust in those who were to committee. He was sure that the hon. bring forward these petitions. He felt him. gent. would not take it ill to be thus ques- selfbound to refute the calumnies which had tioned on the subject.

been propagated, alleging that the disturMr. Bankes, while he allowed that the bances in his county had been occasioned question put by the hon. gent. was a per- by the meeting to consider of the petition fectly fair one, declared that really he in question. It might be sufficient, in hardly knew how to answer it. He could answer to this calumny, to state, that these only say, that for his own part, nothing disturbances had existed for years before, had been wanting to enable the committee and that, after the meeting to consider of to lay before the house their report. Du- the Commutation of Tythes, they had ring the present session almost every hour abated rather than increased. The same which was not occupied by his duty in he could also state as to other petitions. the house had been devoted to his duty Another stigma attempted to be fixed on above stairs. So far back as before the the favourers of this measure was, that an Easter recess, he had laid before the com- improper advantage was sought to be got mittee the materials of a report which was for the land owners, at the expence of the complete as far as it related to himself to church. For his part, he disclaimed every make it so. Unfortunately, a considerable idea of the kind. He wished that the difference of opinion existed in the com- church and clergy should have their rights mittee on the subject of that report, and preserved entire ; but that the present the discussions upon it had proceeded to a mode of levying the tythes should be much greater length than could have been commuted for one more equal and less expected or foreseen. Those discussions burthensome. This was no catholic quesstill continued. He could only repeat, tion; it did not partake of a religious feelthat nothing should be wanting on his part ing; it was supported by the county of to bring them to a speedy termination ; | Armagh, than which no county in Ireland that in his opinion the report might be laid was more, or rather so completely, proteson the table of the house to-morrow; and tant. It was a measure wished for by that he should very much lament that the all classes, and even by the protestant circumstances which he had mentioned clergy. He did not pretend to say that should operate to delay the presentation of the petitions were so numerous

as to it beyond the present session.

entitle him to allege that it was at the moMr. Whitbread thanked the hon. gent. ment a measure of necessity; therefore he for his candid explanation, and disclaimed should not urge referring the petition to a

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committee at present. He left it with mi-, and in a manner less repugnant to their nisters, assuring them that the commuta- feelings. tion of tythes was necessary, and that no Mr. Burton was by no means of opinion time was to be lost, after the commences that this was an easy subject. In that part ment of the next session of parliament, in of England, where for many years he had bringing it forward. He then moved, that been engaged in the discharge of his prothe petition from the county of Kerry be fessional duties, the adjustment of tithes referred to a committee of the whole house. had ever been attended with more com

The Chancellor of the Exchequer availed plication and difficulty than any other himself of the opportunity afforded him by matter which had fallen under his notice; the right hon. gent.'s motion, distinctly to and he had just been told by an hon. friend state that it was the intention of his ma- near him, that in the county of Devon a jesty's government seriously to consider very vigorous attempt which had been this business, of the importance of which made to arrange the commutation of tithes they were completely convinced. He had had been abandoned, on the experience already paid considerable attention to it of the impossibility of success. himself, but he regretted to observe, that Mr. Sheridan trusted that the people of the further he went into the examination, Ireland would not relax in their petitions the more arduous did the task appear, and to parliament on this subject, fully conthat the undertaking of applying a remedy vinced as he was that whatever might be to the evil, appeared to be beset with difti- said by his majesty's government, it was culties almost insurmountable.

to parliament alone that eventually they peated, however, that every effort should must look for redress. He completely be made to remove them.

differed from the hon. and learned gent. Mr. Parnell expressed his satisfaction at who had just spoken, with respect to the the sentiments which the house had just nature of the difficulties by which this heard from the right hon. gentleman. subject was surrounded. In his opinion Mr. Ponsonby considered this to be a they were difficulties which a little atten

a question of importance to the well-being tion might obviate. In cases of inclosure of Ireland. Any new mode of levying the they were obviated at present, and he tithes did, indeed, present numberless ob- could not conceive why the principles stacles: he hoped, however, they were which applied to inclosures might not be not insurmountable, but such as might be generally diffused over the whole system overcome to the satisfaction.of all parties of the country. While he was on his legs by time and patience. He reposed all con- he would say a few words on a subject in fidence in government that every means which he was more personally concerned. would be adopted to accomplish this ob- At the close of the last session of parliaject.

ment, in consequence of the passing of two General Mathew stated, that he held in bills, which as they were now legislative his hand a Petition on the subject from the acts, he would not characterise in the county of Tipperary, but that after what terms of abhorrence which justly belonged had fallen from the right hon. gent. he to them, he had given a solemn notice of should refrain from presenting it.

his intention early in the present session Sir G. Hill was anxious to know whe- of parliament, to move for a committee to ther or not his majesty's government in- examine the general state of Ireland. On tended to take into their consideration the the meeting of parliament, however, the commutation of tithes in England as well | had been induced by the recommendation as in Ireland. He deprecated any inter- of those to whiose ailvice he must ever ference on this point in tlie one country listen with deference on all subjects, and which did not extend to the other. more especiaily on every thing which re

Mr. Herbert recommended, in strong lated to Ireland, to postpone his motion terms, the measure of a commutation, which until after the discussion of the Catholic he was convinced would not be attended Petition; a discussion, the good effects of with any insuperable difficulty, and which which on the general feeling of the house he was satisfied would be as acceptable to and of the country, were very plainly disthe clergy as to the laity. He knew se- cernible. Since that discussion he had veral instances in which clergymen had been induced still further to delay his modeclared to him that they would be willing tion by various motives, of which the apto abate a sixth of their clerical revenue, proaching consideration of the subject imif it could be collected with more facility, mediately before the house, was one of the

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most weighty; and as that had been post- | the session in which they were passed. poned until so late a period, he should The right hon. gent. seemed to think that abandon all intention of bringing forward it was the duty of ministers to attend to his motion during the present session. the acts that were likely to expire, but did

Mr. Ponsonby thanked his right hon. not seem to be aware that a committee friend for his condescension; stating that was appointed at the commencement of he had made the application, from an un- every session to inquire what bills were willingness again so suddenly to agitate likely to expire, and if any neglect took a question which, so far from tranquillizing place, it was the act of the house. But the people of Ireland, must have had a in the view taken by the right hon. gent. ,contrary effect.

he did not seem to be aware that this bill Mr. Rose, Mr. Bastard, sir W. Elford, was not to have effect by imposing penaland Mr. Lockhart, each said a few words; ties, confiscations, or forfeitures; it was after which, Mr. Fitzgerald obtained leave only to continue authorities to maintain to withdraw his motion.

jurisdictions, until the enactment of the [Expiring Laws Bill.] The Chancellor continuing bill. Therefore the execution of the Exchequer moved the order of the in the parenthesis alluded to by the right day for the house going into a committee hon. gent. could not take place under this on the bill for remedying inconveniences bill. It would do much good, and could resulting from the expiration of certain do no injury. laws.

Mr. Ponsonby thanked the right hon. Mr. Sheridan objected to the Speaker's gent. for having attended to the suggestion leaving the chair. Why did not ministers made by him respecting the inexpediency prevent those inconveniences which they of continuing penalties by this bill, when now called upon parliament to remedy? he had first mentioned the subject. The It was in their power to have prevented objections of his right hon. friend would the evil, and why had they not done so? have been unanswerable against the oriThey knew what laws were about to ex-ginal bill, if it had not been for the propire, and why had they not provided in viso introduced by the right hon. gent. due time? It appeared to be a bill which for excepting penalties. But, certainly, might be well entitled, “A bill for the the introduction of that proviso removed a better encouraging the laziness, indolence great part of these objections; and, with and neglect of his majesty's ministers. It this proviso, he thought that the bill might was too uniformly assumed that the bill be productive of benefit in certain cases. would pass.

The act which was to be con- -The house then went into a committee. tinued might have expired before the bill Mr. Sheridan renewed his objections to for reviving it had passed, and thus the of the principle, and thought it was an adfence proscribed against cease to be criini- mission of the indolence of his majesty's nal, or on the other hand, what was infinite ministers. The bill then passed through ly more serious, that which had ceased to be the committee. criminal, inight, by a sort of latent revival, become suddenly penal, and thus a man might inadvertently be guilty of a crime, and hanged in a parenthesis. He thought

Friday, June 17. the bill replete with absurdities, and no (DROITS OF ADMIRALTY.] The Earl of consideration would incline him to yield Suffolk rose to make his promised motion to the motion for the Speaker's leaving the relative to the Droits of Admiralty. He chair, unless it was that of having the ad- observed, that he was not in the habit of vantage of his high authority and parlia- troubling their lordships in regard to any mentary experience in the committee. subject which he might think proper to

The Chancellor of the Exchequer contend- present to their attention. Previous to the ed, that this measure was not a violation present, he had taken several opportunities of the usages of parliament for centuries; of making inquiries relative to the approbecause the session of parliament, accord- priation of the Droits of Admiralty, the ing to parliamentary usage, was considered amount of which now in the hands of the but as one day. It was only a few years crown was certainly greater than it had ago that an act was passed to provide that been at any former period. It was highly acts of parliament were to have effect from important, that the people of this country the day of passing ; whereas, antecedently, should know what was likely to become of all acts had reference to the first day of the property now vested in the crown,

HOUSE OF LORDS.

Lord Hawkesbury observed, that whatever information the noble earl might have received about the amount, it could only proceed from speculation, no returns having yet been made, as the sales of the property had not been effected. whenever the returns could be made, and they came regularly before the house, he would then give his opinion on the subject.

But

Lord Holland thought the question of the greatest importance; the more peculiarly so, since the practice had prevailed for these forty years past, of seizing upon foreign property before the declaration of hostilities. The Droits of Admiralty had increased to an enormous extent; and yet, in arranging the Civil List revenue, no regard had been paid to them, and we had been called upon no less than five times within not a great space of time to pay off the debts contracted on the civil list, besides augmenting considerably that revenue. The question, therefore, was one well worthy of their lordships' attention; and although he would advise his noble friend to withdraw his motion for the present, yet he hoped he would persevere in bringing it again forward in a future session.

and accruing from the seizure of the Dan- [ from the Danes, should be laid upon the ish property. Count Stahremberg, before table.” his departure, had said, that unless the Danish property was restored, he had authority from his court to say that no peace on the part of Europe could possibly take place with this country. No reflection could be more melancholy than the event of this transaction; it had disgraced the English character in the eyes of the continent; and when he recollected the conduct of Great Britain, in respect to the seizure of the Spanish frigates, it impressed upon his mind how much more beneficial it might have been for the success of our warfare with France, and our situation in respect to the Spanish fleet at Cadiz, if our behaviour at that time had been more honourable. Before that period, the name of an Englishman was a passport through every province of that kingdom, but afterwards our character sunk, and became almost despised. Indeed, if the crown, without any inquiry on the part of the public, was permitted to devote this money, particularly such an enormous sum, toats own purposes, he conceived it possible for an administration to commence and protract a war for the object of plunder which might be gained from the enemy in this way. On this ground the public anxiety was justly raised, and they had a right to consider this question of the greatest importance. In the present reign we might have nothing to apprehend, but still it was extraordinary, that no answer had been returned to the frequent inquiries made respecting the appropriation of this money. During the reign of that unprincipled monarch, Charles II. whose being pensioned by the French king, justly entitled him to be called an unprincipled monarch, such sums of money might have been disposed of in the most unconstitutional man

ner.

The American war produced to the crown a vast accession of this property, but he believed only a certain portion was applied to its own use. Perhaps the answer returned by the noble secretary opposite would be, that the amount of the property taken from the Danes was not yet ascertained, but he thought the amount must have been known, by its having been estimated at a million and a half. However, the public anxiety had been a sufficient ground for his troubling the house upon this occasion, and therefore he should move, "That certain papers, relative to the amount of the property taken VOL. XI.

The Earl of Suffolk said, that after what he had heard from the noble secretary of state and his noble friend, he had no objection to withdraw his motion, but pledged himself to bring it forward again.

[LOCAL MILITIA BILL.] Lord Hawkesbury, on the motion for their lordships' going into a committee on the Local Militia bill, rose and stated, that the principle of this bill went not only to provide for the present exigency, but was intended as a great permanent measure of national defence. In a new system of this kind, it was not expected that it should be devoid of imperfections; but he thought the general policy of the measure could not be denied. It must be confessed, that the present situation of the world was such as demanded all our exertions to place this country in a state of defence which should bid defiance to every attempt that could be made against her. The volunteer system was not one which he should object to as far as it went, but it was a system which could not altogether be depended on, when practically viewed, because its efficacy rested entirely upon the spirit which might prevail at the time, and which might dwindle and evaporate. This con

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sideration, therefore, was anticipated by on the volunteers, which measure was well the present bill, as it would go to provide suited, in his opinion, to the defence of a remedy for such an occurrence; besides, the country. His lordship then said, that this force, he thought, would be more he did not wish to use hard words towards efficient than even the volunteers. He any foreign power, but he could not help begged also to inform their lordships, that remarking, that the atrocities of Buonathe present volunteer force was fixed at parte were great, and that he was sedulously 370,000, of which upwards of 277,000 to be watched. For although his armies were efficient by the returns. When, might be driven out of Spain by the enero therefore, the amount of the other forces gy of the Spaniards, and by their enthuof the nation was considered, together with siasm in defence of their liberties, yet it the means to be resorted to by the present was not necessarily to follow, that France bill, the country might look with proud would cease to be dangerous to this counconfidence to measures which would thus try. But if he was successful in crushing secure its permanent safety. It had been the present ebullitions of the Spaniards, and suggested that an armed peasantry would obtained possession of both Spain and have been better to have recourse to in Portugal, he would be truly dangerous to case of an invasion ; but he thought, that this country; as he could with more facihowever formidable they might be in a lity from those countries attack us on the mountainous country, they were not so side of Ireland. He hoped, therefore, that well adapted for our island as a local ministers would seriously weigh these cirmilitia, which was now to be grafted on cumstances, and be prepared for the event, the volunteers, and intended not only to and could not refrain from expressing his supply their place, in case of any defi- anxious wish that something should be ciency arising from them, but was to be done, by which they could obtain the a measure to be persevered in whether the militia of Ireland for the defence of this country should be at war or in peace, and part of the united kingdom, by giving was so calculated as to, be carried into Ireland an equivalent defence in return. effect without injury to the civil employ- The Earl of Moira had observed with ments of those to whose lot it might fall regret, that the volunteers had been unto give their services.

dervalued, and that they were said to be The Earl of Selkirk did not rise to op- badly disciplined; but in that part of the pose going into the committee upon this island where he had particular opportunibill, for he sincerely concurred with the ties of knowing what the volunteers were, noble secretary of state in the sentiments he was so convinced of their efficiency, he had expressed with regard to the prin- that he would cheerfully head them ciple of the measure. He agreed that the against any force that could be opposed to measure should be made as conforniable them by invasion. It was true that they as possible with the civil occupations could not be expected to be so well disciof the subject: he agreed that, however pliner, or so good, as veteran troops that zealous and active the volunteer force had been frequently in the field, but there might be, and for which he gave it am- was no comparison to be made between ple credit, yet it was not wholly to be them, and those intended to be raised by depended upon; he regretted, however, the present bill, as he considered the that the measure was not of greater extent, former infinitely superior in every respect. and more adapted to general principles. A rumour had prevailed that altħough the After taking an extensive view of the dif- volunteers in Scotland might be good, yet ferent local forces of the country, the those in the southern part of the island noble earl proceeded to recommend, ac- were not so well disciplined; but suppose, cording to his own system, that instead of for the sake of argument, that it was so, ballot, an enrolment of all the young men although he did not know it to be true, of the country, from the age of 18 to 25, did it follow that they could not be renshould take place; that there should nei- dered as efficient if proper measures were ther be substitution nor purchase, but that to be pursued ? He had no doubt that it it should equally affect every class of his would be so, but unfortunately no steps majesty's subjects. He concluded with were taken to keep up the patriotic spirit declaring his intention to move some among the volunteers; on the contrary, amendments in the committee.

they had been, for some reason or other, The Earl of Buckinghamshire approved cried down. most cordially of the measure as grafted Lord Hawkesbury explained, that he did

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