discounts to the amount of five and even ten thousand pounds. He might quote the late lord Liverpool, in support of the evil to be derived from the creation of factitious capital; but he was aware this would be called the language of theorists, of men so very wild and speculative as to dream that the resumption of payments in cash at the Bank would be a measure of expedience. It might be urged, that the failure of the late coinmercial speculations was nothing more than a slight distemper. But did not such distempers tend to produce exhaustion in the body politic, and was not the drain of national capital to be deplored, withdrawn from useful employment, and lavished in prodigal and unsuc cessful enterprise? The paper he should move for had been communicated to the Committee by the Governor of the Bauk, under an injunction not to insert it in the Report, and it had since been published in one of the daily vehicles of intelligence. A person had seen it on the table of a director, and had surreptitiously communicated a copy. As it was, however, already before the public, he apprehended there would be the less difficulty in consenting to the object of his motion. It had been urged, that such a production would be prejudicial to the Bank. This he could hot understand; neither could he believe that it was any interference with their private concerns. Could that be called a private concern which went to alter the relative value of every description of property in all its ramifications? If he were to propose to enquire into the principles which governed the Bank in their particular discounts, that would be an improper interference; but when' he asked only for a scale of the proportion which the whole amount of discounts at one period bore to the whole amount at another, he did not see what fair objection could be made. Without this paper the House would, in his opinion, go after all to the discussion of the great question in the dark. The paper lately presented to the House from the Bank, by no means answered the purpose he had in view. That paper contained nothing more than an account of the sums advanced at different periods by the Bank to government on the application of the latter. But it was impossible for the House to discover by this what the whole amount of the government securities now in the hands of the Bank might be, or what the number of Exchequer Bills which might have been bought by the latter in the

market. It was essential to know, not only how far they had gone in accommodating individuals, but what limits they had prescribed to themselves in accommodating government. He must disclaim entertaining what he feared had been imputed to him; any spirit of hostility to the Bank, nor could he think that any such spirit was evinced by a mere doubt of their infallibi lity. The real enemies to the Bank were, he was convinced, those who should advise them to resist this motion, or who should attempt to persuade them that power and compulsion could ever supply the place of confidence. The real enemies of the Bank were those who taught them that there was nothing in the present state of paper currency to merit the interposition of that House, or to require the vigilance of the legislature. The hon. gent. then, after recapitulating his arguments, and referring to the amount of individual suffering and extensive distress, created by a growing depreciation of the circulating medium, moved, "That there be laid before this House, a comparative scale of the Commercial Discounts of the Bank of England, from the 1st of January 1790 to the first of January 1811; distinguishing each year."

Mr. Manning begged to be understood, in the course of what he should say upon this question, as having no instruction whatever from the Court of Bank Directors. It appeared to him, that the document moved for, would be attended with great inconvenience, and ought not to be granted, unless called for by the necessity of the case, which at present it was not. The only document that could be said to be necessary, was the amount of the Bank Notes issued, and that was laid before them every year since the passing of the bill. To give an account of the commercial discounts, would be an interference with the internal management of the Bank, and, therefore, should be resisted. He regretted that his hon. friend had thought proper to go so much at large into the general question, which he thought ought to be reserved for the proper occasion, when the House was called upon to discuss it distinctly. He allowed that the principle of cash payments should be resorted to when it was practicable, but this was not the period. His hon. friend had said that the Directors would consider such a proposi tion an offence; but he was sure that they would always be willing to return to the old system when it could be done with propriety. The motion was unnecessary!

This was the first instance in which any such motion had been made, and therefore he should give it his negative.

Mr. Horner wished in a few words to state his reasons for agreeing in the motion of the hon. gent. at the same time that he declined entering upon the general subject, which he confessed ought to be reserved for the proper occasion, and not debated by piecemeal. He condemned the conduct of the person who had been guilty of such a breach of privilege as the publishing of the document in question; and thought the motion rested upon fair grounds. The hon, gent. had opposed it by stating, that it was not necessary to call for the precise amount of the discounts; but that was not what the motion called for it did not demand the precise amount, but merely a comparative and propertionate scale. The question then was, whether it was necessary or not? It appeared to him that the evidence which the Directors of the Bank had given proved the necessity of it. They had stated, that it was impossible there should be any excess, the issues being always regulated by the discounts. The only way to shew that their doctrine was true, was to produce an account of the amount of their issues, and a scale of their discounts; and see whether they corresponded. This was rendered still more necessary from what had been stated by the hon. mover, who affirmed, that though the amount of the discounts had been reduced, that of the issues had not.

How would the Bank of England reconcile this with their doctrine? He should certainly vote for the motion.

Mr. Marryatt said, that the Bank of England having become of late a great state engine, Parliament had a right to investigate its affairs, if necessary to the public good. It has been said, that not a note more was in circulation than the good of the public required; but he knew the contrary from experience. He could state instances of several clerks who had failed with notes in their hands, to the amount of hundreds of thousands of pounds. It was, in fact, impossible to know the state of any man's affairs, from the facility of discount in the Bank of England. Excess of paper, like excess of every thing else, tended to its depreciation. The prima facie evidence was against the Bank of England, and it was for their honour to give the statement required. The malady under which this country laboured, with respect to Bank circulation, was one that might be

remedied, if taken in time, but, if neglected, it would be likely to end in a convulsion fatal both to public and private men.

Mr. H. Thornton approved of the limitation of discount by the Bank, and defended its conduct in many instances.

Mr. A. Baring thought that a loose paragraph in the papers possessed no authenticity but what was conferred on it by the hon. gentleman himself; and conceived that no ground was made out to justify the motion.

Mr. W. Smith said, that when the Income Tax was first brought in, it was thought that it would be an injury to commercial men, by obliging them to reveal their affairs; but this was not admitted as a sufficient argument to counterbalance the one of public advantage proposed by the measure, neither should the reluctance of the Bank Directors be available in the present case. He had listened attentively to the hon. gent. (Mr. Manning), but did not hear any positive evil mentioned as likely to accrue from the adoption of the motion: all that was said, was that evil would result; but what the evil would be, was left to their own imaginations. For his part, he did not think that any would result; and on that account, together with the reasons already urged by other gentlemen, he thought that the House had a right to call for the paper.

Mr. Huskisson in reply said, that he was still at a loss to know what objection could be made to the motion. He called for the document not to create, but to reconcile differences, by throwing additional light on the subject at issue. His hon. friend. had complained that he anticipated the discussion upon the great question itself: all he did was, to say that there were different opinions, without stating any opinion himself upon any of the prints. As to the indiscretion with which he had been charged, in alluding to the printed document, it afforded an opportunity to the members of the Committee to disclaim the transaction for themselves, and he was sure they would be obliged to him for it. He had nothing more to add, but to express his conviction that the document was necessary, and with that declaration he should leave it to the House to determine whether they would grant it or not.

The House then divided, when there appeared Ayes 23; Noes 56.-Majority against the Motion 33.

HOUSE OF LORDS.

Monday, April 8.

desirable that it should be resorted to as little as possible. The provision in former bills burdening the counties with the support of the families of enlisted men, and substitutes, was in this Bill left out, it being deemed unreasonable, that where men were not soldiers by compulsion, as in the case of balloted men, the counties should be burdened with the support of their families. The burden would also be lessened by the proposed measure of enlisting a proportion of boys.

PRINCE REGENT'S MESSAGE RELATING TO PORTUGAL.] Marquis Wellesley presented a Message from his royal highness the Prince Regent, representing the distresses which in a part of the inhabitants of Portugal were plunged by the savage barbarities exercised against them by the French army in its retreat, and expressing a desire that their lordships'House would concur in enabling him to afford the sufferers speedy and effectual relief.-[For the Message see the proceedings of the House of Commons.] The marquis then moved, that his royal highness's Message be taken into consideration to-morrow, and

that the lords be summoned.—Ordered.

STATE OF THE KING'S HEALTH.] Earl Grosvenor rose and asked, whether it was the intention of ministers to lay before the House a copy of the Report of her Majesty's council, respecting the state of the King's health?

The Earl of Liverpool observed, that the Report alluded to by the noble earl was to be found in the records of the Privy Coun cil, and that if the noble earl was desirous to have it before the House, it was competent for him, or any noble lord, to move for its production.

The Earl of Grosvenor said, he should make a motion to that effect to-morrow.

MILITIA ENLISTMENT BILL.] On the On the order of the day being read for the committal of the Militia Enlistment Bill, The Earl of Liverpool briefly observed upon the nature of the Bill, the object of which was to derive a constant supply from the Militia for the regular army, without interfering with the ordinary recraining service. The proportion of the Militia to be allowed annually to enlist amounted to about one-eighth, but it was by no means imperative on the government to take the whole amount of this proportion, but, in the exercise of a sound discretion, only such a part of it as might be necessary in aid of the ordinary recruiting to supply the waste in the army. The militia was to be reduced to its old number, to keep up which, enlistment was to be resorted to, including a proportion of boys from 14 to 17. He was anxious that the ballot should not be struck out of the

statute-book, but at the same time it was

of

The Earl of Rosslyn agreed in the propriety of the regulation as to the families of enlisted men and substitutes, but wholly differed as to the expediency of the mode proposed by the Bill of supplying the wastes in the army. His lordship entered into a variety of details, for the purpose shewing that the Bill, even in the view of those who proposed it, could not answer its intended purpose. The waste in the army during the years 1808, 9, and 10, had been at the rate of 21,000 men each year, the utmost number to be produced by this Bill, and by the intended bill of a similar nature for Ireland, was 10,000 men, whilst the ordinary recruiting, it appeared by the returns of last year, did not produce more than 9,000 men. Thus, then, the whole number to be produced was 19,000, and the waste was 21,000; so that there would be an annual deficiency of 2,000 men. The operation of the Bill, likewise, would materially interfere with the ordinary recruiting. The average sum given for a substitute in the Militia was 50l. and how could it be expected, with these high bounties in the market, that the ordinary recruiting could be effective, with a bounty of 16 guineas? The noble carl warmly panegyrised Mr. Windham's plan, which increased the advantages of the service, whilst it left the market for recruiting without competition. By this plan, in the first half year of its operation, 11,000 men were produced, and there was every reason to believe, that had it becn allowed a longer existence, it would have produced recruits in a much larger proportion.

Viscount Sidmouth acknowledged he only gave his support to the present measure upon a belief of its indispensible necessity. All were agreed as to the necessity of keeping up our army, and he saw no other effective means of doing so, except by the present measure. He agreed in the wisdom of Mr. Windham's plan; but denied that it had produced the

numbers stated by his noble friend, there having been, at the time alluded to, an intimation given to render effective the incomplete second battalions; in consequence of which, there were 1,200 recruiting parties out in the country, instead of 500, and by which a much larger number of men than usual had been produced. He agreed, however, that if Mr. Windham's plan had been allowed to ope rate, there was every probability that it would have operated very favourably to the recruiting service, and decidedly objected to the mode now adopted, of giving an option of limited service, or service for life, conceiving that those mixed terms of service had an unfavourable effect upón the army. Under existing circumstances, he conceived the present to be the only measure that could be adopted, nor could he consent to estimate the waste in the army at 21,000 men. In 1808 there was a great loss of men in the north of Spain, and in 1809 in the Walcheren expedition, the effects of which continued to operate in 1810, all contributing to increase the waste in the army; but there was no reason to expect the operation of similar circumstances again; and therefore 19,000 men, the estimated produce of this measure, combined with the ordinary recruiting, might be considered fully sufficient; or more than sufficient, to supply the annual waste in the army.

Lord Holland could not but regret to see the Militia so broken in upon as it must be by the present Bill; but his chief objection was to the clause which went to convert it from a temporary into a permanent measure. The noble lord took oc casion highly to extol Mr. Windham's plan, which had exceeded in its operation the most sanguine expectation of his friends but the present measure would totally destroy all the benefits which that salutary plan was calculated to produce. By making it perpetual, instead of temporary, it was proceeding upon principles diametrically opposite to those which he had ever maintained respecting matters of that nature; and so far, therefore, it must have his most decided negative.

The Earl of Westmoreland defended the Bill, and observed, that the ballot was not to operate till the year 1813, and that, therefore, the competition in the market between the bounty to substitutes, and the bounty in ordinary recruiting, could, in the mean time, exist.

The Earl of Hardwicke observed, with (VOL. XIX.)

respect to leaving out the provision for the families of enlisted men and substitutes, that it would not practically make much difference, as their families must still be provided for as paupers. He thought it would be better to enact, that provision should be made for the families of those who had not received a higher bounty than twelve guineas.

The. House then went, into the committee on the Bill. The Report was received, and the Bill ordered to be read a third time to-morrow.

Viscount Sidmouth took that opportunity of stating, that the average waste of the army in time of peace was between 12,000 and 13,000, inclusive of the foreign service. The average waste during times of active. warfare was 23,000, so that the 10,000 men which was to be supplied from the militias of England, Scotland, and Ireland, would cover the difference of the waste of the army in time of peace and war.

GRAND SOUTHERN CANAL BILL.] Mr., Sumner moved the order of the day for the second reading of the Grand Southern Canal Bill.

Lord George Cavendish felt it his duty to oppose the Bill, on the ground of its being the proposition of a certain number of speculating individuals, who were totally unconnected with the great interests of the county; and because it was in direct contradiction to the wishes, the opinions, and the, interests of the principal landholders. He hoped the House would not countenance this Bill, which was part of a system now very much acted on, of pushing forward measures contrary to the sense of the great majority of the persons chiefly interested: he therefore would propose as an Amendment, "That this Bill be read a second time this day six months."

Mr. Sumner denied that the Bill was brought forward by speculators, and said that it had the sanction of such great names as the duke of Norfolk and lord Egremont. He maintained that the Canal would be of eminent advantage in conveying a principal part of the lading of the East and West India outward-bound. fleets; and hoped that the Bill would be suffered to go into a Committee, in order that its merits might be fairly considered.

Sir Charles Burrell contended that many advantages would result from the forma (3 B1)

tion of this Canal. There were many valuable stone quarries along the projected line; there were large tracts of waste Jands, which would be benefited; and the junction of the river Ouse canal would also be attended with material advantage. Besides, the quick conveyance of naval stores to Portsmouth would be effected by it. On all these grounds he would support the Bill.

Mr. Calcraft did not agree in opinion with the hon. baronet, that any of those advantages would result from the proposed canal, the chief part of which, according to his statement, would affect the Sussex part of the line, for which a Bill should be brought in next year, as they were obliged to vary the notices; so that the only part which could proceed, if this Bill was carried through, would be the offensive part, namely, that part which was to run through the county of Kent. It was farcical to talk of the communication of Northfleet, and Woolwich, and

Chatham, with Portsmouth, by means of this canal; for a canal from Croydon would answer all those purposes without cutting up 1,400 acres of land. The fact was, that not one of the great landed proprietors in Kent were favourable to the measure; and if the county members were not absent from indisposition, there was no doubt of their opposing it in their places. Neither were any of the principal towns of Sussex likely to be benefited by it, as it was to run parallel to the sea. The great objection was, that there was no landholder in favour of it; and though the duke of Norfolk and lord Egremont Bad compromised with the projectors of this Canal, they had been originally adverse to it, and their names were only made use of now to give a colour to the business, and to assist in cramming it down the throats of those who were adverse to it. He hoped, therefore, that the House would set its face against the system of which this was a part.

"GEORGE, P. R.

on behalf of his Majesty, having taken into "The Prince Regent, in the name and

his serious consideration the accounts

which he has received of the severe distresses to which the inhabitants of a part. of the kingdom of Portugal have been exposed in their persons and property in consequence of the invasion of that coun try, and especially from the wanton and savage barbarity exercised by the French armies in their recent retreat, which can

not fail to affect the hearts of all persons nity, desires to be enabled by the House who have any sense of religion or huma of Commons to afford to the suffering subally such speedy and effectual relief as jects of his Majesty's good and faithful may be suitable to this interesting and afflicting occasion.-G. P. R."

Ordered to be referred to the Committee of Supply.

STATE OF THE KING'S HEALTH.] Mr. Whitbread rose to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whether it was his intention to make any communication to the House, on the subject of his Majesty's health? By the Regency Act, the Queen's Council were required to make a Report to the President of the Privy Council, in the first week of April, as to the state of his Majesty's health. This Report must now have been made; and with a view to the regulation of his own conduct, he wished to know whether it was intended to lay this communication before the House.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer replied, that he had no objection to any motion to that effect being made by the hon. gentleman.