to prevent Privately-Stealing in Shops, | to which the government might have and Stealing from Bleaching Grounds in England and Ireland. FOREIGN MINISTERS PENSIONS BILL.] Mr. Leach moved the second reading of this Bill: Mr. Bankes opposed the Bill on the ground of its breaking in upon the line of financial reform already laid down. Sir J. Newport was hostile to the second reading of the Bill upon the same ground. Mr. Brand opposed the second reading. He was averse to any step that could have the least tendency to raise a suspicion on the part of the people of the sincerity of the efforts making by that House in the financial reform already entered upon. thought it fit to call him. This he thought to be a wise provision, and one that had been rendered the more necessary by a new custom, which was creeping in amongst those gentlemen, of exercising a supposed right of refusing any mission, after they had served out their three years; insisting upon it, at the the same time, that this refusal upon their part to discharge their duty to the public, did not invalidate their claims to the pensions they were receiving from the public, upon the ground of those services. At the same time he had no hesitation in saying, that if when he had the honour of holding the seals for the Foreign department, any exemption had been proposed in favour of The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, certain persons who were supposed (he that amongst the objections he had heard knew not why) to be interested in the urged against the Bill, there was none fate of the Bill, he would then have conagainst its general provision. It was ad- sented to it. The omission made in the mitted that the persons in question ought Bill of last year, respecting this case, was not to suffer loss in consequence of their merely an oversight; and it ought to be having held such situations; and that recollected, that, though this Bill should they ought to be provided for as far as it pass, the discretion on the part of his Macould be done consistently with the pub-jesty to grant or withhold such pension, lic service. The question then was, how would remain entire and uncontrouled. far the present bill was calculated to effect that? He justified the conduct of the duke of Portland's administration, when it first came into power, in continuing to these foreign ministers the pensions given to them by the preceding government. Mr. Abercromby said, it was then open to the King's discretion, whether he would continue to them their pensions or not. Mr. Canning said, that from the constant exercise of the discretionary right in the King to grant a pension to all those who had served abroad as foreign ministers, there seemed to have arisen on the part of those ministers, a correspondent right to demand; so that the claims were so many, and were represented to be so similar, that the great difficulty was to know where to grant and where to withhold; this of course led to difficulties which were justly obviated by the Bill of last session. This Bill provided certain rules, which were meant to regulate future claims, by putting aside all those which did not come within such regulations. The first rule laid down was, that limiting the period of service within ten years from the date of his commission. The Bill further provided, that the person holding the foreign seals should certify that the claimant had not, within that space of time, refused any one mission Mr. Whitbread expressed his reluctance in feeling himself obliged to vote against the Bill. Mr. Stephen and Mr. Giddy were for the Bill. Mr. Loach replied to the arguments urged by various speakers against his Bill, and contended, that persons employed in the diplomatic service of the country, were entitled to a liberal provision, when they were no longer employed, though they might not have been ten years in the service. Persons who gave their talents to the diplomacy, and relinquished other prospects of obtaining an independence on the faith of the existing negociation, ought not to be subsequently denied support in consequence of a new arrangement having been made. The House divided, when the numbers were For the second reading... HOUSE OF Lords. Monday, April 1. 34 24 ... -10 COMMERCIAL CREDIT BILL.] The Com mercial Credit Bill was read a third time. The Earl of Lauderdale moved to leave. out the clause, empowering the Commis sioners to advance Exchequer Bills on the security of Heritable Bonds in Scotland, observing that it was contrary to the principle of advancing money to merchants, and that, from the nature of the security, the money could not be forthcoming with in the time limited by the act. constantly operative cause which produced Earl Bathurst observed, that the clause The Earl of Ross again adverted to the merely empowered the commissioners to question of the exchange becoming fatake heritable bonds as an additional secu-vourable to Ireland, contending that it was rity. The same clause was in the Bill of not the result of a diminished issue by the 1793, and no inconvenience resulted from bank of Ireland. it. The Earl of Lauderdale denied the necessity of the clause.-The question was put that the clause stand part of the Bill, and agreed to. The Earl of Lauderdale then moved to leave out the clause empowering the Commissioners to advance exchequer bills to the incorporated banks of Scotland, upon the ground that there was no necessity for it, the banks not standing in need of any such assistance. After a few words from earl Bathurst, who stated that this clause was also in the Bill of 1793, the question was put, that the clause stand part of the Bill, and agreed to. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Monday, April 1. MILITIA ENLISTMENT BILL.] Mr. Lushington brought up the report of the Militia Enlistment Bill. Mr. Elliot said, he was compelled by a sense of duty to object to this Bill, though he could not now hope to say any thing new upon it. When he recollected those who had on former occasions been associated with him in opposition to these expedients, it might well be supposed, that the subject presented him with no cheering reflections. It might be said, that he was hostile to the Militia Establishment altogether; and that his arguments against it ought to be taken with some grains of allowance. He never had been an enemy to the establishment, provided it were kept to its original numbers. He then proceeded to state the grounds of his ob The Earl of Lauderdale then adverted to the notice he had given on Friday, his object being to leave out the clause empowering the Bank of England to pur chase exchequer bills issued under this act, and to substitute another clause pro-jections to this measure; to the increase hibiting them from so purchasing them. His lordship observed, that the analysis of the measure with this clause as it now stood, was, that the merchants having a quantity of goods for which there was no market, the Bank could not accommodate them with discount, but by the interference of government, advancing exchequer bills to the merchants, the Bank would take the exchequer bills as a security, and issue their notes for them to the merchants, thus increasing the issue of Bank notes, which was already too great. of the numbers of the Militia, and to the Local Military Establishments which for some time past had formed so great an obstacle to the regular recruiting for the army His late right hon. friend (Mr. Windham,) had taken a comprehensive view of the whole subject, and had formed an excellent plan for the recruiting of the army. That plan, unfortunately, had been overthrown before its most efficacious engines had even begun to operate. Still, its success, so far as it had gone, had exceeded his expectations and those of the Earl Bathurst contended, that this would great character who had formed the plan. be, by a side wind, destroying the advan- It produced, for the first quarter, at the tages of the Bill, as the exchequer bills, rate of 10,000 men a year; for the second, which the Bank were prohibited from pur- at the rate of 13,000 men a year; for the chasing, must necessarily be at a discount, third, at the rate of 21,000 men year; whilst other exchequer bills would be at and for the 4th quarter, at the rate of par. Nor would it prevent the issue of 24,000 men a year. All this, by the orbank notes, as those possessed of the ex-dinary recruiting at a reduced bounty. chequer bills must sell them in the market, But the efficacy of such a measure must and purchase others which the Bank could depend on the opinion of its permanency; take, and for which of course bank notes and since the unfortunate interference with would be issued. There was, besides, ait, the regular recruiting hardly produced ΣΧΕ 200 3 a sufficient number of men to cover the Colonel Duckett would have been very averse to this measure if he had understood it to be a permanent one. But he hoped it was not intended to make it perpetual. Necessity justified it at present; the same necessity which at times night justify the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act. He expected that there would be no occasion, however, to have recourse to the ballot. After the late volunteering, the recruiting for the Militia had been very successful. He would support the Bill therefore, as a temporary measure. The advantage to the army might be gained by recruiting. They recruited for the mili tia, and why not as well for the line? The present mode only tempted men to enter the militia first, and after remaining there for a few weeks, they enlisted into the line for the sake of the double bounty. He was glad that the ballot was to be avoided, if possible. But the misfortune was, that while the expectation of ballot was held out, men could hardly be got by recruiting the expectation of high bounties for substitutes, induced those who were willing to enter the army to keep back till they could do so upon the most profitable terms for themselves. Mr. Ellison hoped it was not intended to render this a permanent measure. He had the strongest objections to the ballot and fines, which were a great local oppression, throwing that burthen on a few which ought to be borne by all. The men, however, must be had, and he was willing to allow this Bill to pass, in the expectation that there would be no occasion to have recourse to the ballot. Mr. Bankes said, that he should propose a clause to declare that the ballot should not take place until the year 1813. Lord Castlereagh, adverting to what had. been stated by a right hon. gent. (Mr. Elliot) against the present Bill, was willing to allow that if it were possible to raise 24,000 men annually by ordinary recruiting, it would be more advisable than to have recourse to a compound system. The measure of the late Mr. Windham, however, though favoured by peculiar circumstances, only produced in the first year of its operation 17,000 men. Mr. Whitbread said 19.000. Lord Castlereagh repeated it had only produced 17,000. All the facts relative to this subject were submitted to the House by Mr. Windham and bimself in 1807. Mr. Giles referred the hon. gent. who It was to be remarked that at that period spoke last to the Bill itself, to shew that it there were no less than 54 second battawas intended to be a permanent measure. lions in the country so reduced, that it was The Bill recited, that "whereas it was ex- doubted whether they could possibly be pedient to provide a permanent supply for filled up; and an order was issued, that if the army, &c." and this quality of per- each battalion did not raise 400 men, in manency was, in fact, the great objection all about 20,000 men, the battalions should to the measure. The Militia officers were be disbanded, and the officers would forto be converted into drill serjeants, to pro-feit their rank. The recruiting parties were vide 10,000 men annually for the army. in consequence increased from 200 to 700. With regard to the private men, it must He dissected the number of men raisedthat be remembered that 240,000 in England were locked up by way of local-militia, or volunteers. These might be enlisted; but then their places must be supplied. year, and found that no fewer wereraised in one half year than 8,000 men by these second battalions. Whatever influence the inducements held out by the late Mr. : Windham might have on a philosophic mind, he was convinced that they would not have much on the aggregate of the population, and he was therefore unwilling to forego the permanency of service for any theoretical probabilities. To that system, however, he allowed its full influence, except in changing it so far as to allow an option to limited or unlimited service and since that time the recruiting had fallen to about nearly its ordinary numbers.-It had been said, why not raise men at once by ballot for the line? but to this it might be answered, that the militia gave habits which prepared men for entering into the line, and that it was the natural colour of the mind of man to prefer in the first instance the home service. He thought it extremely probable that the militia`supernumeraries, with the ordinary. means of supply, might supersede the necessity of a ballot; and he thought it therefore proper that something of this sort should appear on the face of the Bill, to put an end to all speculation. Mr. Whitbread thought the noble lord who spoke last had dealt very unfairly by that great man whose eternal absence all must lament, very unfairly by the army, and very unfairly by the country. The system of recruiting for the army, during the last war and the present war, down to the period when the late Mr. Windham's plan was proposed, was a system of force and violence. That plan was said to be theoretical, and in practice inefficient. Luckily, however, for the country, it was carried into execution; and its success exceeded the most sanguine expectations of Mr. Windham himself. The fact could not be contradicted, that in the particular year alluded to, the recruiting for the army exceeded not only what had either happened before or since, but was equal to the ordinary waste of the army in time of war, namely, to 19,000, while the whole number now proposed to be raised was 22,000. The noble lord was for reducing the number raised on Mr. Windham's plan to 17,000; but he contended that it was proved by Mr. Windham that the number was 19,000 and a fraction. The noble lord next wished to detract from its merits, by imputing this increase to a second operation; the number of second battalions in which the rank of the officers depended on their success in recruiting, and the number of recruiting parties. It had only produced, said the | noble lord, without these additional incentives, 8,000 in six months. But the noble lord ought to have observed, that the measure was, as was predicted, progressive in its operation; and that the second quarter yielded an encrease over the first; the third over the second; and the fourth over the third. The additional number of recruiting parties increased only the number of competitors; but did not increase the abundance of the market of recruits: That plan, however, was knocked on the head at once by the noble lord, who had deprived the country of it for ever. They were now, in the present distressed state of the manufactures of the country, and when there was such a multitude of men in the market, obliged to make the present measure perpetual; a measure which let fall on the heads of a few that which ought to be spread over the whole country. The noble lord would not allow that men were inclined go at once into the army. He wished one jump into the militia, and a second jump into the regular army. The reasoning of the noble lord was here more childish than he could have expected. Why were men unwilling to jump at once into the regular army? Because they well knew, that by their double jump they would get a double bounty. This, however, came home to the argument of the late Mr. Windham, which, by leading men from step to step, and by increasing their remuneration at each, would have effectually kept up the numbers of the army, without such a grievous burden to the coun try. He then adverted to what had been said by Mr. Ellison, who, he said, had de clared that he would vote for the Bill, while he hoped it would not be carried into effect. The best way surely to prevent its having effect would be to vote against it.-With respect to the ballot, he said it was a grievous burden on the country. He called on every gentleman who had any experience on the subject, to say if he had not met with numberless instances of misery which wrung_the heart, while there was no remedy? It was possible to bring forward such a number of instances of misery occasioned by the ballot, that he had no hesitation to say it was as grievous in its operation as any conscription that ever existed in the world. If there was a necessity, let the hand of the law be laid equally on all. Mr. Ellison said in explanation, that he should vote in favour of the present Bill merely as an experiment. first eminence had declared, that any regiment into which one-seventh of raw recruits had been introduced, could be in a state to meet the enemy within three weeks. As to the plan of enlisting for limited service having been abolished, the fact was not so, but an option was allowed of enlisting for limited or unlimited service, and not one fourth of those enlisted chose to avail themselves of the former, though the difference in bounty was only one guinea, being five guineas for limited and six guineas for unlimited service. Mr. Bastard contended, that these constant leaps which the militia were made to take, were calculated to produce, and- in fact had produced insubordination in the militia. It would be a great deal better to put an end to this species of force at Mr. Wilberforce said, the present mea- | sure shewed, in the strongest possible manner, the danger of having at any time recourse to extraordinary methods, as in a short time they came to make part of a general system. Ministers had only to say so many men were wanted for the regular army, and the measure would be recurred to of course. By such a measure, all the improvements in the army, which Mr. Windham's plan was calculated to produce, would never more be thought of. The first introduction of draughting from the militia was on the occasion of the expedition to the Helder, and it was then thought fit to accede to it from the extraordinary circumstances of the time. Who could then have supposed that it would have become a general system? All the objections which. were then urged, of converting the militia officers into recruiting officers for the army, and of the insubordination it would occasion in the militia, were now got over. They were now never thought of. Nobody would ever think now of urging the necessities of the country in favour of the measure. His great objection to this measure was, that it put an end to all the benefit naturally to be expected from the plan of Mr. Windham, who had the art of infusing his own spirit into whatever he undertook. The present system was distressing and grinding in the highest degree on the lower orders. Mr. Secretary Ryder contended that it was necessary, in the present situation of the country, that the army should be kept up to its greatest and most efficient force. He wished, therefore, that gentlemen who opposed the present Bill would propose some substitute for it which would be equally effectual. At the same time he entertained no doubt, from past experience, that there would be no necessity for resorting to the ballot within the time mentioned by the hon. gentleman. It might be asked then, why not agree to the clause proposed to be introduced by the hon. gentleman (Mr. Bankes)? He would tell them why. He was afraid the introduction of such a clause would induce persons disposed to enlist to suppose that the ballot would necessarily take place at the end of two years, and would prevent them from entering till then, when they might expect greater advantages to arise to them. As to the idea of discipline being destroyed by this measure, this was greatly exaggerated, and officers of the once. Colonel Wood supported the measure; and was of opinion that a seventh taken annually from the militia for the regular army might be supplied by beat of drum, and without resorting to the ballot. He had witnessed many volunteerings from the militia, and he never knew them interfere with the discipline of the militia regiments. The Amendments were then agreed to. OF ORDNANCE ESTIMATES BATTLE BARROSA.] The House having gone into a Committee of Supply, Mr. Ashley Cooper proceeded to call the attention of the Committee to the Ordnance Estimates for the present year. The Ordinaries were considerably greater than they were last year, arising princi pally from the transfer to this head of service of several articles from the Extraordinaries, particularly the Artillery Drivers, Waggon Train, &c. He had endeavoured as much as possible, to follow a similar plan to that adopted in the Army Estimates, as being the most likely to make his statement intelligible to gentlemen who had been accustomed to attend to the Army Estimates. As the Estimates, however, were so transposed, it would not be necessary for him to compare them with the Estimates, of last year. He should only say, in general, that they were 500,000l. more than those of last year; This arose particularly from the article of Prize Money, amounting to 170,000l.; Foreign Service 200,000l.; and an addition of 13,000 men, amounting to 40,000l. There was only one new article in the Extraordinaries which it would be neces. |