HOUSE OF lords.

Friday, March 29.

COMMERCIAL CREDIT BILL.] This Bill passed through a Committee, and was re, ported without amendment.

The Earl of Lauderdale gave notice, that he should move a clause on Monday, to prevent the Bank from purchasing the Exchequer Bills issued under this act. His His lordship also stated, that he should then prove that he was correct in stating that the Bank of Ireland had diminished its issues after the report in 1804, and which had been positively denied by a noble earl on the former evening.

The Earl of Ross said, he had not denied that the Bank of Ireland had diminished its issues at the period alluded to; but what he maintained, and was still prepared to contend, was, that the exchange became more favourable to Ireland previous to any diminution of its issues by the Bank. His lordship then proceeded to notice a statement in the Report of the Bullion Committee, which, he maintained, was founded in error; namely, that the Bank of England had increased its issues between June 1804 and 1806, whereas 'it was proved by documents, that, during that period, the issues were diminished.

The Earl of Lauderdale compared the present state of the paper currency with former depreciations, contending that the same cause, namely, an excessive issue of paper, would infallibly produce similar effects to those produced by that means in the reign of William 3; to the depreciation of assignats in France; and to what had been witnessed in every one of our colonies. In consequence of an excessive issue of paper, the coin disappeared, and the paper became depreciated-an evil which was only cured by limiting the quantity of paper.

Lord Holland observed, that the very same arguments that were now used, by those who contended that the paper currency was not depreciated, were used in France, to prove that assignats were not depreciated.

Lord Redesdale contended that Bank notes were in a different situation from assignats, being issued on securities which must be paid in a certain and short period, and in payment of which the Bank notes were returned.

The Earl of Lauderdale observed, that the assignats were issued on the best security in France, namely, the land, and

whilst they did not exceed the amount of that security, remained at par with bullion; but as soon as it was known that more were issued than could be taken in payment for the land, then they begun to fall in value, until at length they sunk to nothing. So by the directors of the Bank of England increasing the issue of Bank notes, for which cash was not to be had, the Bank paper had become depreciated, whilst the Bank proprietors had gained the enormous profit of 21,000,000l. since 1797.

Lord Redesdale admitted the cause of the depreciation of assignats, but contended that the assignats were issued by government for provisions, for the armies, and other articles, without any prospect of their being returned, whilst the notes of the Bank of England were issued on securities in payment of which they must be returned within a short period. The Bank notes were merely similar to as▾ signats before their depreciation.

The Earl of Rosslyn wished to understand clearly what was meant by this are gument, as supposing the issue of Bank notes to be doubled, how would it then apply?

Lord Redesdale observed, that the argument did not apply to an excessive issue without the means of return, but to the actual issue, as at present, of Bank notes, only upon securities.

The Earl of Lauderdale contended that it was merely a collusion for the Bank to issue notes to the bill-holder to pay his bills with.

The conversation ended, and the House adjourned till Monday.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Friday, March 29.

DWELLING HOUSE ROBBERY BILL.] Sir Samuel Romilly moved the second reading of the Bill to repeal so much of an Act, passed in the 12th year of the reign of queen Anne, intituled, "An act for the more effectual preventing and punishing robberies that shall be committed in houses, as takes away the benefit of clergy from persons stealing any money, goods or chattels, wares or merchandizes, of the value of forty shillings or more, in any dwelling house or outhouse thereunto belonging, and for more effectually preventing the crimes of stealing in dwelling houses, or outhouses thereunto belonging.

Mr. Frankland spoke in opposition to the second reading to the effect following: Sir-Although my hon. and learned friend, in conformity to the course of proceeding in the House, has only moved the second reading of the Bill, which respects stealing in dwelling houses; yet it will be recollected that there are now also on the table four other Bills, which equally seek to make important alterations in the existing laws of the country, and which equally stand for the second reading on this day. The one respects privately stealing in shops and warehouses: The other relates to thefts in ships, barges, and other vessels, at their ports of entry or discharge, or on navigable rivers; and to thefts on wharfs and quays adjoining. The third respects stealing of linen or cotton cloth or yarn, in buildings or grounds, where it is printed or bleached. The fourth Bill is applicable to Ireland, and respects stealing linen or cotton cloth or yarn from the bleaching grounds or workhouses, in that part of the United Kingdom. Of these five Bilis, the first was, last year, rejected in this House, after a long and diligent discussion. The second was rejected, after a similar discussion, in another place. The third, although brought into the House last year, was never pressed to a third reading. The fourth and fifth have been presented this year, for the first time. Five Bills, upon such dissimilar subjects, would seem abundantly to manifest a settled purpose in the framer of them to endeavour to change the whole system of the law, as it respects mixed or compound larcenies. Indeed I am not left to conjecture on this subject; for my hon. and learned friend has himself distinctly avowed such purpose, as well by words, delivered in his place in this House, as by observations which he has communicated to the public on subject matter, not only connected with the purport of these Bills, but respecting other important features of our criminal jurisprudence. Such being the operation of those Bills, and such being the opinions and views of the framer of them, it would seem to become the bounden duty of those who seriously apprehend the evil consequences of such departure from the received and approved maxims of our penal administration of justice, not only to point out the inconveniences of the measures immediately under consideration, but to assert broadly the character, policy, and advantages of the British system,

which, however it may have occasionally been exposed to animadversion, has, from time to time, received the considerate approbation of the most profound reasomers, and the ardent eulogies of the best and most benevolent of mankinda system full of mercy, though seemingly severe, and in its effects producing less suffering and more happiness than other systems, apparently more lenient; but which in their real operation subtract more from the amount of human enjoyments, and add more to the sum of human misery.-I say this of its general character. There may be blemishes in it, as in ali human institutions, most of them rather seeming than real, and which may easily be removed by appropriate remedies: and I shall at any time be most willing to contribute my labours to assist in applying such remedies to them: but the wholesale mode of dealing with them, which is now proposed, will impair rather than improve, the whole of the fabric.

My hon. and learned friend has not suffered himself to be discouraged by the fate of his Bills in the last year. Acquainted as I am with the sincerity and purity of his motives, I have to admire a laudable perseverance, which to others, who do not know him, might appear like pertinacity. The wish, which he so strongly feels, to beneût the community, might abundantly have justified him in persisting again to submit these measures to the consideration of the House, or in adding others to them, which appear to him to be equally beneficial. Surely, Sir, when he again introduced them to our notice, it could not have been necessary for him to have assigned as a collateral motive, that the great lord Coke had recommended to every one, who should succced in the profession, of which he had himself been so distinguished an ornament, to leave behind him some memorial of his knowledge and attainments in it. I should have thought that if my hon. and learned friend had wished to have acted in conformity to lord Coke's suggestion, he would in settling the manner in which he should pay this debt of gratitude to his profession, in selecting the description of legacy he would leave behind him, in shaping and modelling the bequest, he would be desirous to submit to posterity, he would have directed his attention to those parts and branches of the law, with which by his continued and connected studies, and minute and detailed, as well as ex

tensive and enlightened practice, he was the best acquainted. I well know, that, in the early part of his life, the criminal laws engaged no inconsiderable portion of his attention; but I think I may venture to assert, that the ample space he fills in the eyes of his profession, the deserved fame he enjoys, is not derived from any acquaintance he may have with penal jurisprudence; but from that comprehensive and profound, and at the same time practical and minute knowledge, upon other and very different branches of the law, which, for a long course of years, has so eminently distinguished him in the court of chancery, of which he is so bright an ornament. Sincerely as I respect him, and no man respects him more sincerely, highly as I deem of his talents, learning, and varied attainments, yet I will nevertheless affirm that an acting magistrate in the country has, practically speaking, more knowledge of penal law than my learned and hon. friend. An acting magistrate knows how penal laws operate. I do not mean their mere bearings and workings in courts of justice: but how they operate upon the mind; how they interweave themselves with manners; how they school and educate the rising generation; how they form character. And they do form character-national character. No nation on earth has so little of the petty and thievish propensities. Nothing but manners, growing out of laws, could have produced this effect, in a country where the mass and value of personal property is so immense, and where the eagerness of commercial rivalry surrounds us on all sides with temptations, wherever we tread, or cast our eyes. We display, we solicit, we allure by every artifice. He who tempts most, succeeds most. How could this magnificent display, the delight and ornament of this mighty metropolis, how could this continued allurement be resisted, even to the degree in which it is, unless by the silent workings of a system of laws, which, in cooperation with the moral code, had, from early childhood, formed the manners and character of the people? In other countries there is comparatively little temptation to theft. There are, I know, some persons, who affect to doubt whether the holding out these allurements is not itself criminal, and they would extinguish the lustre of our shops, and the interesting display of the works of art, and of the gay and variegated fabrics of our

manufactures, and would have the streets as dark and gloomy as those cheerless imaginations, which sometimes seem to blind the eyes of man to the beauty and beneficence of nature, and of nature's laws. But, Sir, let us recollect that British laws and British institutions nurse up virtue. Persons bred in another school of manners, would sink under temptations which we resist. If under other systems there may be less temptation, or less crime, let us observe at least which system produces most manly and generous sentiment, most public and private happiness. I repeat again that the workings and bearings of penal laws, upon the mind and manners of the people, is practically better known to an acting magistrate, than to my hon. and learned friend, whose attention is painfully and continually, though most usefully, and honourably employed on subjects of a different description. And feeling as I do the extreme importance of the practical knowledge of practical men upon such a subject, as the one now under consideration, I have to regret that these Bills should have been pressed forward upon our attention, when such men are in their counties, engaged at their quarter sessions or on grand juries, or in the discharge of other practical duties of a similar description. For my hon. and learned friend, having selected and shaped (in compliance with lord Coke's suggestion, though not, as seems to me, in exact conformity to it,) the description of the legacy, which he is willing to have appreciated by the House, before he transmits it to posterity, has unfortunately introduced it, and put it on the table for us to look at, and handle, and weigh, when those are absent, who are the best judges of its value. Last year his intended bequest was considered as likely to prove rather a burthen, than a benefit: and now, when with a kind of generous importunity he would seem to force his donation on the reluctant, I do regret that we have not the assistance of those, who might be best able to express their grati tude for the gift, if they found it valuable, or, if they found it otherwise, to defend us from any inconvenience which might arise from it. Seriously, Sir, what has hap pened, that has occasioned all this stir and bustle upon this subject? Have any of these magistrates, whose absence I lament, transmitted their representations? Has any description of magistrate whatever, subordinate or superior, moved on the occasion? unless it has been for the purpose of anxi

Multi

ously expressing his dissent to the measures proposed, and of deprecating their adoption. Would not any one imagine from all this activity and clamour, respecting the alleged severity of the British laws, that something had lately happened? that something had met the eye, or shocked the feelings? That something had compelled us to reconsider the policy of our system of criminal jurisprudence? That some miserable waste of human life had been observed? plied and useless executions? Pitiable examples of youth and age led fruitlessly to death? Increased human suffering, and no corresponding benefit? No, nothing of all this, but the contrary. We find the country rapidly increasing in wealth and population: no sense any where either of property having become insecure from the over-whelming effects of crime, nourished by impunity, or a suggestion from any quarter, that our population is cut down, or kept back by multiplied capital punishments. Are we then to repeal laws of long standing, merely because, upon ordinary principles of legislation, severe laws are to be avoided? The House, I am sure, will deeply feel that to repeal existing laws is very different from enacting new ones. The same arguments, the same course of reasoning, which might be sufficient to dissuade the passing of a law, are far from sufficient to induce the repeal of a law, when once enacted and interwoven with our manners. Such repeals tend to unsettle the opinions of mankind; to disturb received ideas as to guilt, "So then the stripping, plundering, rifling, pillaging, and gutting a house, is not so bad a thing as I thought. I thought it was a hanging matter. But the parliament gentlemen, I find, have got pleasanter notions about all this. I am very glad of it. I always thought some people had more good things than they ought to have, and that you and I had too few. Well! to be sure I have no house to be plundered; but then my neighbours have plenty." That such are the effects of repealing laws, in respect to unsettling opinions, and disturbing received ideas of guilt, is not matter of conjecture; but was last year matter of general notoriety, when the Bills of my hon. and learned friend were under the consideration of parliament. Owing to a misapprehension, it had been imagined that the Bills had actually passed, and the speculators were immediately on the alert. Not the descrip

but its

tion of speculators who had urged or promoted the alteration which was supposed to have taken place: but the speculators, to whom the new system immediately applied. It was a matter of notoriety at every office of police, and to every person whose duty it was to keep his eye on such scenes and such characters, that there was as much activity, and as much expectation, and calculation, and preparation among these hopeful speculators, as some new operation of finance would have produced at Lloyd's or on the Exchange, among speculators of still another description. Sir, it is this tendency, which the repealing existing laws has to unsettle the opinions of mankind, that has in all coun tries, and in all ages, produced a general indisposition to change systems, under which the society had for any length of time acted. Nolumus leges Angliæ mutari has been said in this country, not only without reprehension, but with applause. The sentiment, however, is general among mankind, except in times of occasional effervescence, when things are coveted because they are new; their novelty alone being sufficient to recommend them. This sentiment may, of course, be carried to excess like all other valuable sentiments; general tendency is most beneficial. To young, ardent, and inexperienced minds, this disposition of mankind to leave things as they are, seems very dull and very stupid; and we all of us remember, that sanguine period of life full of hope and confidence, when there was scarcely any possible subject which we did not fancy we could improve by cutting and carving it according to our fancies. There is in young minds, a kind of astuteness in ob serving seeming imperfections, incongruities, and inconsistencies. They are good judges of approaches to ideal perfection on paper and parchment, or of departure from it. But it is long before they discover that every thing is referable to happiness: and that happiness is produced by continuing to act even under imperfect systems, than by continually unsettling the opi nions of mankind, and the maxims and rules of their life. The great and mighty art of wise nations has been not to change the system of their laws, according to every fluctuation, which time and the ever-moving scene of the world urge backward and forward continually, and without a pause; but so to qualify and adapt these systems, to altered circumstances, as to preserve at once the sanctions which deter from evil,